Commando Archive
Thread: Is there any good reason why Commandos need the pistol/carbine marksman trees?
Flamethrower is for close in dirty work. like dealing wth jebi.What difference does it make what we might or might not get in the CU? The Cu is nothing more than paper and ideas. The CU is liable to be rename to Combat Reinvention and delayed another year. Right now we don't get the bang for the buck.Right now Commando's are at an extreme disadvantage because they don't have enough points left to cover their weaknesses aseveryone else is able to. Maybe someday in some distant galaxy in some distant planet in some distant time dimesional warp our power might... might .... justify the SP but at present no it doesn't.
garvin wrote:
Now...the question is "What's Coming that will make this better?"...That's a tough question to answer without violating the NDA. I will say this though, our pre-reqs WILL help us. Thats a goal for Commandos and other professions via the CU (to make the pre-reqs worthwhile). This "help" could come in many forms (and does). Post-CU, our pre-reqs will cease being just back-filler on our story and actually become more worthwhile. We will actually USE what we get from Marksman & our Unarmed pre-req. This is one of the biggest pluses I see coming for Commandos (what we get from our pre-reqs) and something I'm very excited about.
Novock wrote:
What difference does it make what we might or might not get in the CU? The Cu is nothing more than paper and ideas. The CU is liable to be rename to Combat Reinvention and delayed another year. Right now we don't get the bang for the buck.Right now Commando's are at an extreme disadvantage because they don't have enough points left to cover their weaknesses aseveryone else is able to. Maybe someday in some distant galaxy in some distant planet in some distant time dimesional warp our power might... might .... justify the SP but at present no it doesn't.
garvin wrote:
Now...the question is "What's Coming that will make this better?"...That's a tough question to answer without violating the NDA. I will say this though, our pre-reqs WILL help us. Thats a goal for Commandos and other professions via the CU (to make the pre-reqs worthwhile). This "help" could come in many forms (and does). Post-CU, our pre-reqs will cease being just back-filler on our story and actually become more worthwhile. We will actually USE what we get from Marksman & our Unarmed pre-req. This is one of the biggest pluses I see coming for Commandos (what we get from our pre-reqs) and something I'm very excited about.
It makes a HUGE diffence to be honest..."tweaking" is what screwed this game up past the problems it launched with..."tweaking" is what threw balance of farther then it ever was and made it necessary for a complete revamp...
Originally the Devs tried to "fix" things as they came up by making a "balance here" and a "balance there"...but what they actually did is throw the balance even farther off and make more focused "uber template" designs. What the Devs should have planned for in the first place is to "Balanced Every Combat Profession at the same time" which is what they are doing via the CU. The big push back around Publish 7 was not going to Balance every profession, but rather, try to bring certain profession "into line"...I have no confidence that it would have worked back then, especially without a Sandbox where we'll be able to test things on...
So in otherwords, if the Devs scraped the whole CU idea and instead decided to make little fixes here or there or just focus on one profession at a time I can tell you, with 100% certainty, it would fail miserably...their track record up to date proves that...
Now...if you feel that the CU is never going to happen do to pessimism brought on by delays and lack of communication, while understandable, it doesn't mean it's right or justification of making rash changes that aren't weighed against other ingame "balances"...If we made every needed Commando change tomorrow without making all the other Combat changes, we'd have a temporary balance created...what would happen later when those other Combat Profession also get their fixes (this would take our fixes and push us back out of balance)...That's why it NEEDS to happen all at once...and to happen all at once means that it's a fairly HUGE project that needs to be run like it's an actual Game Expansion just like JTL (but with no extra cost to the customer).
I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'd rather wait for them to get it right then try and rush things out and have to live another year with a broken profession...Many people feel that SWG was rushed out of Beta in the beginning and many of not most of it's current major issues should have been addressed before this game launched...now we are harping on the CU taking to long and wish things would move faster...common thread?
Yes...for all we know, things could only be on paper currently...But even if that's true, the Programmers and Devs I met in Austin have some great and seriously detailed plans on paper and would be foolish not to bring them live. Besides that, how do you know that a lot of the graphics, animations, etc aren't already in game? For all you know, everything is set to go and it's just hardware that's causing the problem today...It's the lack of communication that's caused all the problems and pessimism going on...If the devs would give us good feedback regarding any delay...actually share the reasons and the goals and follow them up with frequent progress reports, we'd all be a bit happier and more optimistic (have you ever noticed how the optimism grows anytime any CU related dev post is made?)
I'm sorry I'm not priviliedge enough to be in the great dream world called Alpha. To me and what I see the CU is no more than a promise in a distinct pattern of promises thatare yet to befulfilled. You can't truly argue with my statement for it does not matter whats in the CU until the CU is a reality. Promises don't change the fact that I can't walk into Naboo as master commando and expect to even have a chance to PvP which is suppose to be the end game to SWG the GCW. Promises of changes are nothing more than promises. I disagree with your assement BTW of the revamp,TH said back in the revamp promise phasethat "everything would be changed" you say only a cpl things with a cpl proffessions was going to be changed. but thats not my argument nor my point.... nor did i suggest things be "tweaked" I'm just willing to accept the reality of the game, thatits broke and the promise of it being fixed doesn't change that fact that its broke and has been broke basically since launch and will continue to be broke into the future. If you want to be a jedi this is the game for yu. If you want to PvP and play the GCW without being a jedi... well you can't do it with commando you're going to have to pick up the melee stacking and go TKA. Thats the nature of the beast. call me pessimistic but I'm just accepting teh pattern of reality to which SOE has already displayed. I have no reason to be optimistic SOE has done nothing to give me a reason for optimism, just delays and broken promises an every excuse in the book why its not their fault and is some how the customers fault.
garvin wrote:
It makes a HUGE diffence to be honest..."tweaking" is what screwed this game up past the problems it launched with..."tweaking" is what threw balance of farther then it ever was and made it necessary for a complete revamp...
Originally the Devs tried to "fix" things as they came up by making a "balance here" and a "balance there"...but what they actually did is throw the balance even farther off and make more focused "uber template" designs. What the Devs should have planned for in the first place is to "Balanced Every Combat Profession at the same time" which is what they are doing via the CU. The big push back around Publish 7 was not going to Balance every profession, but rather, try to bring certain profession "into line"...I have no confidence that it would have worked back then, especially without a Sandbox where we'll be able to test things on...
So in otherwords, if the Devs scraped the whole CU idea and instead decided to make little fixes here or there or just focus on one profession at a time I can tell you, with 100% certainty, it would fail miserably...their track record up to date proves that...
Now...if you feel that the CU is never going to happen do to pessimism brought on by delays and lack of communication, while understandable, it doesn't mean it's right or justification of making rash changes that aren't weighed against other ingame "balances"...If we made every needed Commando change tomorrow without making all the other Combat changes, we'd have a temporary balance created...what would happen later when those other Combat Profession also get their fixes (this would take our fixes and push us back out of balance)...That's why it NEEDS to happen all at once...and to happen all at once means that it's a fairly HUGE project that needs to be run like it's an actual Game Expansion just like JTL (but with no extra cost to the customer).
I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'd rather wait for them to get it right then try and rush things out and have to live another year with a broken profession...Many people feel that SWG was rushed out of Beta in the beginning and many of not most of it's current major issues should have been addressed before this game launched...now we are harping on the CU taking to long and wish things would move faster...common thread?
Yes...for all we know, things could only be on paper currently...But even if that's true, the Programmers and Devs I met in Austin have some great and seriously detailed plans on paper and would be foolish not to bring them live. Besides that, how do you know that a lot of the graphics, animations, etc aren't already in game? For all you know, everything is set to go and it's just hardware that's causing the problem today...It's the lack of communication that's caused all the problems and pessimism going on...If the devs would give us good feedback regarding any delay...actually share the reasons and the goals and follow them up with frequent progress reports, we'd all be a bit happier and more optimistic (have you ever noticed how the optimism grows anytime any CU related dev post is made?)
Message Edited by Novock on 01-17-2005 12:27 PM
Novock wrote:
I'm sorry I'm not priviliedge enough to be in the great dream world called Alpha. To me and what I see the CU is no more than a promise in a distinct pattern of promises thatare yet to befulfilled. You can't truly argue with my statement for it does not matter whats in the CU until the CU is a reality. Promises don't change the fact that I can't walk into Naboo as master commando and expect to even have a chance to PvP which is suppose to be the end game to SWG the GCW. Promises of changes are nothing more than promises. I disagree with your assement BTW of the revamp,TH said back in the revamp promise phasethat "everything would be changed" you say only a cpl things with a cpl proffessions was going to be changed. but thats not my argument nor my point.... nor did i suggest things be "tweaked" I'm just willing to accept the reality of the game, thatits broke and the promise of it being fixed doesn't change that fact that its broke and has been broke basically since launch and will continue to be broke into the future. If you want to be a jedi this is the game for yu. If you want to PvP and play the GCW without being a jedi... well you can't do it with commando you're going to have to pick up the melee stacking and go TKA. Thats the nature of the beast. call me pessimistic but I'm just accepting teh pattern of reality to which SOE has already displayed. I have no reason to be optimistic SOE has done nothing to give me a reason for optimism, just delays and broken promises an every excuse in the book why its not their fault and is some how the customers fault.
Message Edited by Novock on 01-17-2005 12:27 PM
I'm not trying to say that you feel "tweaks" are a good thing or that you are unjustified in your feelings...if anything, you are more then justified because "the proof is in the pudding"...Your first sentence is a perfect example of what I mean by the seriously lack of communication...the fact that those with the information are seen as "priviledged"...If I had my way (and I've said this many times) I'd just release all the CU info and let the Correspondents play clean up and collection...I wouldn't have any NDA for this stuff...The only thing that would be NDA'd is the actuall Testing process (just to curb bug/exploit reports that can lead to unnecessary panic)...
What I was trying to say is that, from what it sounds like you are saying, is that you'd like to see action rather then talk...as you say, it's all on paper until we actually see it...and for us to see anything, we either have to wait, or the Devs would have to rush it out in pieces instead of all at once (tweaks)...Think about it...The originally NERF'd Commandos and CH's in preperation of a CB that never happened...I think we can all agree that that should never have happened, instead any type of "tweak" should have happened WITH all the other balances going in AT THE SAME TIME...The fact that the devs were willing to make these kind of "tweaks" back then and have now made a point to say that they are making all the future balances all at the same time should tell you that things have drastically changed from the original plan...Those "tweaks" back then really screwed things up for us even more then we already were.
So, to me, it's better to wait and have it all at once thenpush for changes before they are ready or we may end up with more "tweaks" that screw things up while we wait for the rest of the "tweaks" to go in to finish the balance (which could take months). And if it means waiting another few days, weeks, months to get us even more, then I'm willing to wait...But even my patience has limits...and the only thing that helps is open communication via progress reports...so that's why I keep saying that it's communcation that has been SOE's biggest short coming in this whole deal...
another side effect of this kind of thinking is that it is actually the best way to get people to group together without forcing them (something SOE has been barely adequate at - they usually either outright force grouping eg dwb or completely destroy it eg doc buffs) because each member of a party will cover another members weaknesses making the group much stronger than the sum of its parts - allowing them to be much more effective in pvp or able to tackle much higher pve content. of course a better loot system needs to be put into place...
/ninjalewt
Bingo...exactly what I was thinking...Imagine if the game worked in a way that the more diversity you have in your group make up, the stronger overall your group will be (less weaknesses since others will have the strength you need to cover your weakness while you cover someone elses)...Combine that with quests/mission requiring elements that require certain professions (like the DWB for example) and you create even more reasons for group diversity...For example (and this is not a CU hint), imagine if Commandos were the only ones capable of Fire Damage and the big boss of a big mission was very weak to Fire Damage, having a Commando would be a huge plus...but what if getting to that boss you had to go through a bunch of enemies that Commandos were weak against, this would give more reasons for that diversity...
overbyte wrote:
/nods
another side effect of this kind of thinking is that it is actually the best way to get people to group together without forcing them (something SOE has been barely adequate at - they usually either outright force grouping eg dwb or completely destroy it eg doc buffs) because each member of a party will cover another members weaknesses making the group much stronger than the sum of its parts - allowing them to be much more effective in pvp or able to tackle much higher pve content. of course a better loot system needs to be put into place...
/ninjalewt
/sign
ps garvin - get soe to put up a public curb forum (inc stickied "in progress" docs with NOT FINAL stamped all over them, at the top) and get them to change the nda to bugs testing forums accessable by beta testers only. if the stickies were moderator posts only then a monthly update would be a snap and all of soe comms woes would be over and there would be peace in the middle east and enough food and water in africa. sigh. SOEOverbyte has a certain ring to it, eh?
I think one of the best examples (and I'll use a game which I played religiosly for a while) is Age of Empires II. Its not an MMO but a strategy game. The game has dozens of different units that you can utilize to conquer your objective. In that game, it would be useless to try and fight with only one type of unit. If I decided to only use archers for example, the enemy would send in knights and I would be toast. However if I put in pikemen in my group they wold eat up all the knights in no time. There are countless other stretegy games (Warcraft, Starcraft, Command & Conquer) that work like that. Why can't MMORPGs work that way too?
Like Garvin says, a particular type of profession would be designed to exploit a vulnerability of another.
Anyways....Garvin...that was too Cryptic, What are we getting that will rely on Pistol/Carbine trees???? I think you're being TOO dang cryptic there
But yeah...anyways, having those trees give us a nice power base argument tool
.Also, on your big post about "True Balance"...True balance isn't a myth...it is in fact what you said, its Rock-Papers-Scissors BOOM! That too me is true balance, not giving something a negative mod because their faction is winning (to "balance" the conflict), or to nerf Commando because our flame dot was "too damaging"...yet our profession was and still fairly broken at the time.
No...True Balance is in fact strengths and weaknesses, there is no one set uber profession, everything has a weakness. Yeah, you CAN dabble and strengthen your weaknesses...but at the same time you lose your strengths...eventually making you an "even" character that can do just about everything but not as effectively as a more specialized character (who also is more prone to a certain weakness that you may not be as much prone to)
True Balance is so simple...its usually not taken into account, and as a result we get what the devs did with the nerfing and whatnot....its just how look at things and define them
. Im agreeing with ya, but also saying that Balance is achievable...but not in the sense that most people think of......basically in the sense of giving us strenths and weaknesses which in effect is what you said, even though you say True Balance is a myth, even though how I see true balance is in fact what you said, even though you said it was a mtyh, which made what I just said false, which is actually true according to what you said...and...
^^Up there is what the devs have tried to balance things out, one big mess
Down here, its rock-paper-scissors...hopefully the type of combat we'll be getting in the CURB if all proves well...
And lastly...this post really is meaningless on my part...ahh well
