Commando Archive
Thread: More on the commando change
Holocron wrote:
The way things are at the moment, post-patch:
- Commando weapons operate at up to 64m. The default loop is slow but pretty powerful in terms of raw damage per hit. (I don't know how they are in terms of DPS--?)
- Commando weapon specials are limited to <16m.
- The commando weapons take pretty significant accuracy hits when used <16m.
- But the commando specials have significant accuracy bonuses which make them very accurate at <16m.
- Commandos take ranged weapon defensive penalties when fighting vs melee, resulting in 2x damage to them.
The way you thought things were going to be:
- Commando weapons would operate at up to 64m, but their strength is at short range for both specials AND default attack.
- Commandoswould not do extra damage to ranged weapon wielders.
- Commandos would not take defensive penalties versus melee
Is that accurate? I just need solid info so I can discuss this with the combat designer.
That is indeed accurate. I think extra damage done by melee is too much given our range penalties, and the limits on which we can perform our special moves. I don't know about the special moves having a bonus to accuracy, since if I don't use /aim, then I miss quite often, but the combat dev will have to verify that.
Also, it's only the charged heavy weapons, i.e. Heavy Particle Beam Cannon and Rocket Launcher, that have <16 meter ranged attack penalties. The Flame Thrower and Acid Rifle short range penalties are positive. It's our medium and long range bonuses that suffer alot with the FT and Acid Rifle.
FT-
Point Blank- +11 @ 0m
Ideal- -54 @ 50m (if it's the ideal range, why is it negative?)
Max- +0 @ 64m (I think the max and ideal numbers need to be switched)
Acid Rifle-
Point Blank- +16 @ 0m
Ideal- -13 @ 35m (same question as with the FT)
Max- -115 @ 64m
I hope this all helps.
Raph,
The dmg multiplier for rifleman is intended to penalize a rifleman for allowing melee players inside 16m (or reward melee for making it inside 16m). That's reasonable since they have specials intended to do dmg at 64m, and avoid the notice of melee. They can do all their specials and even db from range. If they allow melee inside 16m they failed (ignoring the problems with rifleman for the moment). No rifleman moves to melee range (or even 30m) to do a special. Doing so would be suicide.
Commandos HAVE to be inside 16m to do specials. Does any class use their weapon in default /attack? We all move to the range we can do specials and use them. Therefore we are obligated to move into melee range in all encounters. Now, moving to 16m means we incur a very serious melee penalty. We didn't fail our specials, or use poor strategy, yet we are being penalized as if we had. We moved to the appropriate range and fired. Note how this is completely different than rifleman....they aren't penalized at the range of their specials, only we are. Add to this the 8-15 sec cool down that allows 4-8 2.5x melee attack and you get dead commandos.
The problem is really not so severe in PvP. The melee penalty results in a VERY serious problem for PvE, where everything inside 16m defaults to melee. That results in only 1 viable build as a commando if you want to do ANYTHING in PvE that you can't one shot: Commando/CH. There's no other viable template. Please don't force all of us to get Graul Maulers.
Giving a close range class a 2.5x mod is just crazy. Rifles with a 2.5x mod is logical because they'd actually require aiming. A heavy weapon that sprays a liquid (Heavy Acid Rifle and Flamethrower) do not require much aiming. All you'd really do is point it in the general direction of the target and let loose. That's why a 2.5x mod makes no sense. Why would a weapon that requires very little aiming have a problem hitting something at close range?
Another thing I'm wondering is why you're not fixing Commando. The only thing I see that was fixed is the Flamethrower. All the other weapons are sub-par compared to the Flamethrower. I'd like to see the Heavy Acid Rifle be just as powerful as the Flamethrower, if not more powerful. I don't see why a line of skills for the Acid Rifle require more Heavy Weapon XP, but causes less damage than a skill line that requires less.
Ok, so most of the people here are saying the same thing as I think. I will break it down it just a couple of sentences:
1: HW do not do nearly enough damage to be of any more use than your normal weapon. This begs the question, "Why should we use the rocket launcher, Heavy Particle, or Acid Stream?" No, reason to... Up the damage on them so that the money we spend on a very limited use weapon is actually useful.
2: Flamethrower misses... a lot. I used my special yesterday (flame single 1) on an NPC that i was 5m away from and missed twice in a row. Guess what, I got incapped and death blowed. Either make sure the accuracy bonus for the special is insane or shorten the delay time. When I use a special that takes that long to recharge and takes a ton of HAM away from me and not the enemy, I better hit or I die.
3: I don't know how much the DPS is on the other elite class weapons but I seems from other people here on the board that the FT has a low one. Since I don't have a first hand account of this then I will not make a recomendation of how to fix. However enough people are saying that it is a problem so I do recommend that you look into it.
4: How many of you Commandos use grenades? Even the highest grenades that I have seen don't do nearly as much damage as my normal FT and has a very long recharge rate. Again, why use something when we have a better alternative.
That is about all of the absolute major issues that I can think of right now. Anyone can feel free to add something to the list but I am posting this rather quickly so I hope this covers at least some of the issues.
Well my 2 cents as follows. Holo, you are correct about what the perception was and what the reality is. I agree mostly with our correspondent but with some caveats. First I don't think that the Flamer should get a 2.5x bonus against rifle users. It got this bonus because it was mis-classified as a melee weapon. It does decent damage on it's own, it doesn't need to do increased damage vs rifles.
Personally I'd like to see something along the lines of what someone else here posted. The flamer should have good specials and have decent accuracy in the <16m range. The flamer should nothave a 2.5x bonus against rifle users, and it should not incur a 2.5x penalty against melee creatures. It's a close ranged weapon and the balance is the huge delay after a special is used. The flamer should be AP 1 or 2 as well.
The Acid rifle, on the other hand, should be treated like a rifle. It should not just be an acid version of the flamer. I think that the Acid rifle should be able to use rifle specials like the launcher uses pistol specials as well as have it's own specials. The acid rifle should do lower damage on average than the flamer, but be a longer ranged weapon. The specials should do big front loaded damage at medium to long range, but also incur the long delay that the flamer specials do. The HAR should not get a 2.5x bonus against rifle users either, but it should incur a 2.5x melee penalty as it's a longer ranged rifle weapon. It'd be nice to have the graphics updated on it so it doesn't seem like we're firing a paintball gun when we use it. The HAR should also have AP 1 to 2. These are both considered "heavy" weapons and thus should have an armor piercing value that reflects it.
I think that this would work to add good variation to our weapon mix as well as allow us to build on pre-requisite skills that we gained in getting to commando. As it stands right now there isn't any difference between the HAR and the flamer other than the graphics and the damage type acid vs heat.
We are not very accurate at 16m range with out specials. Much lower accuracy bonus then most other professions, even at master. If the commando or the target is moving, chance to hit is greatly reduced, and because of the long delay a miss really hurts. If both people move, you can forget hitting mostly.
The rest sounds good.
I sincerly advise making Master Commandos better (in some way) than people who just use the commando tree for the Flamethrower maybe extra Acid Rifle/Flame Thrower speed & accuracy or new specials. Right now its just lame...
i'm a bh i don't know about commando weapons but our llc is also a heavy weapon, so probably is handled in the same way as flamethrower
i confirm actually (post patch) there is a multipler of 2x or 2.5x damage when we are hit by a meele opponent
this sounds good to me
Nasock wrote:
My ideas:
Keep flamethrower as this:
Commando weapons would operate at up to 64m, but their strength is at short range for both specials AND default attack.
Commandoswould not do extra damage to ranged weapon wielders.
Commandos would not take defensive penalties versus melee
Change acid rifle to this:
Commando weapons operate at up to 64m. The default loop is slow but pretty powerful in terms of raw damage per hit. (I don't know how they are in terms of DPS--?)
Commando weapon specials are limited to <16m.
The commando weapons take pretty significant accuracy hits when used <16m.
But the commando specials have significant accuracy bonuses which make them very accurate at <16m.
Commandos take ranged weapon defensive penalties when fighting vs melee, resulting in 2x damage to them.
That way we have varied firepower, and the weapons live up to their names
What I think should happen commando wise:
- Our 4 Trees should be Close Quarter Fighting / Medium Range Fighting / Long Ranged Fighting and Support Combat Expert.
- Our close range fighting should be our Flame thrower with its staying within 16m with the penalty vs. riflemen taken out and our penalty vs. melee taken out. We should get 2 additional unarmed moves in boxes 2 and 4.
- Our medium range fighting should be the launcher pistol and specials with it plus grenades with perhaps some specials or fixes for them.
- Our Long range fighting should be the Acid RIFLE with it being classed as a rifle using all bonus and penaltys for using a rifle and being able to use rifle skills with it. Plus this should also have our bonus and certs for our heavy weapons. Cause anyone in there right mind would want to be along way away when they shoot a large weapon. Also acid rifle should have at least medium AP.
- Support Combat Expert should contain special manuevers and bonus that can be used with our other weapons based on levels.
At the moment...the only viable Commando build is one that includes Creature Handler to some degree. I dropped to 1 1 0 0 CH (from 4 4 0 4) when I mastered and I can still get the job done, Without my pets to occupy the mob I am completely worthless and that disappoints me greatly. We finally get a partial boost (most of the class is still broke) and its ripped away with added penalties.
-There are quite a few of us that use CH because we have to. This will continue until the upcoming CH nerf (where you make mobs smarter and they run past our pets to 1 hit incap us)
-Post-Nerf, we will actually use the wasted unarmed points and master TK and basically play that prof fulltime with the addition of nasty FT DoTs.....until the next nerf where we cancel our accounts and monitor the forums until things work.
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Commandos are a hybrid class and SHOULD rely on other skills to survive...it is my belief that the Brawler pre-reqs should be used instead o CH. Not only should we NOT take added damage to melee...I think we should have a natural resistence (hence the unarmed specialist). In addition, you should seriously consider listening to our requests and grant us the Enc reduction on armor so we dont get incapped by durnis anymore.