Commando Archive
Thread: 2 bothersom things from tonight's HOC chat
JemyM wrote:
Novock wrote:
JemyM wrote:
Im sorry. I dont get it. Can someone sum up the problem with having weapons uncerted, and how that effects Commando? Or BH?
Commandos were told the reason why we didn't get any (thats right not one) special is that our specials are built into the weapons and that we are "defined by our weapons." Now with the new change as it sits on TC anyone with the proper level can equip or weapons. So that which defined our class is open to all.
Now the argument is that they won't be able to use them as well as us... however with the right combination of general mods one can use them almost as well as a Master Commando having never trained a single commanod skill box. This makes commando a proffession to add a little speed or a little accuracy but other than that there no real reason now to train commando especially master commando.
As far as BH I disagree. This hits commanods much harder as we now are the only combat proffession with 0 weapon certs, 0 specials and 0 counter moves. BH still has some awesome specials in their proffession what do we have???????
Ok. I see the problem. Except that I would like to continue on the same path as a solution rather than taking a step back. I always hated weapon Certifications. Anyone with at least basic combat training should be able to use any weapon, even if they arent masters of that specific weapon.
(That comes from a Pistoleer that couldnt use half of the new pistols added in the CU).
I never associated the word "Commando" to "Heavy Weapon Specialist" anyway.
I think they need to beef up Commando as the hardcore combat guy. Give them a natural boost to damage reduction (like TKM), give them access to all kinds of armor, keep their heavy weapon bonuses but boost both their general melee and general ranged bonuses all over. Give them nasty specials that really suggests that this guy is nobody you mess with. Give them damage bonuses to weapon they use (Watch me when I kill this creature with only a survival knife) etc.
That would put them back into their role as "Commando".
I can't say that I disgree with that however I don't believe (based on SOE track record) that they have anywhere near the right time needed to add all that to commando. This is called left hand doesn't know what right hand is doing. They spend all the time adding the effects to the weapons rather than specials ( my guess to keep someone from doing flame single 2 with a T21) only to have another developer make all those weapons accessible to everyone.
I personally will not be satisified with just a cpl cert'd weapons. If they don't cert all of them back to commando then they need to start adding specials to our trees as everybody else gets. unfortunately I see commando returning to live in worse shape than it is now.
This benefits the Carbineer and pistoleer but this destroys us and I hope they have a speedy solution but being they don't address most of the negative feelings i doubt we'll see much of anything unless Starnick has some serious pull in the coorespondent forums.
if all our weapons should cert'd to everyone they should open up the DE-10 to everyone as well. And for that matter the lightsaber. I'll pass my sabers from main to my alts. Whooo I can get enough generic melee speed and accuracy to cap yeaaahhhh... but you know that will never happen.
JemyM wrote:
Novock wrote:
JemyM wrote:
Im sorry. I dont get it. Can someone sum up the problem with having weapons uncerted, and how that effects Commando? Or BH?
Commandos were told the reason why we didn't get any (thats right not one) special is that our specials are built into the weapons and that we are "defined by our weapons." Now with the new change as it sits on TC anyone with the proper level can equip or weapons. So that which defined our class is open to all.
Now the argument is that they won't be able to use them as well as us... however with the right combination of general mods one can use them almost as well as a Master Commando having never trained a single commanod skill box. This makes commando a proffession to add a little speed or a little accuracy but other than that there no real reason now to train commando especially master commando.
As far as BH I disagree. This hits commanods much harder as we now are the only combat proffession with 0 weapon certs, 0 specials and 0 counter moves. BH still has some awesome specials in their proffession what do we have???????
Ok. I see the problem. Except that I would like to continue on the same path as a solution rather than taking a step back. I always hated weapon Certifications. Anyone with at least basic combat training should be able to use any weapon, even if they arent masters of that specific weapon.
(That comes from a Pistoleer that couldnt use half of the new pistols added in the CU).
I never associated the word "Commando" to "Heavy Weapon Specialist" anyway.
I think they need to beef up Commando as the hardcore combat guy. Give them a natural boost to damage reduction (like TKM), give them access to all kinds of armor, keep their heavy weapon bonuses but boost both their general melee and general ranged bonuses all over. Give them nasty specials that really suggests that this guy is nobody you mess with. Give them damage bonuses to weapon they use (Watch me when I kill this creature with only a survival knife) etc.
That would put them back into their role as "Commando".
Except giving commandos the great mods would basicly make it the new FOTM to be used for the mods, instead of whatever other profession is being looked at for this purpose, ie BH has dang near all general ranged mods, so it looks hot for ranged stacking.....give those to commando and it's going to just move the focus fromone to the other, not 'balance' anything out.....ie instead of being a BH/Carbineer they'll now be Commando/Carbineer or just stack Commando and BH. But since certs will play very little role in what you can use and it's all going to be mod based, what ever gives the best mods and a few good/great specials will rule the day.
Honestly being a Commando/BH was looking good in CU till this change came out as a very damaging well mod'ed template, as is, why would someone waste the skill points to even pick commando? just master bh and something that gives more general ranged mods and a few more specials.
JemyM wrote:
Novock wrote:
JemyM wrote:Im sorry. I dont get it. Can someone sum up the problem with having weapons uncerted, and how that effects Commando? Or BH?Commandos were told the reason why we didn't get any (thats right not one) special is that our specials are built into the weapons and that we are "defined by our weapons." Now with the new change as it sits on TC anyone with the proper level can equip or weapons. So that which defined our class is open to all.
Now the argument is that they won't be able to use them as well as us... however with the right combination of general mods one can use them almost as well as a Master Commando having never trained a single commanod skill box. This makes commando a proffession to add a little speed or a little accuracy but other than that there no real reason now to train commando especially master commando.
As far as BH I disagree. This hits commanods much harder as we now are the only combat proffession with 0 weapon certs, 0 specials and 0 counter moves. BH still has some awesome specials in their proffession what do we have???????
Ok. I see the problem. Except that I would like to continue on the same path as a solution rather than taking a step back. I always hated weapon Certifications. Anyone with at least basic combat training should be able to use any weapon, even if they arent masters of that specific weapon.
(That comes from a Pistoleer that couldnt use half of the new pistols added in the CU).
I never associated the word "Commando" to "Heavy Weapon Specialist" anyway.I think they need to beef up Commando as the hardcore combat guy. Give them a natural boost to damage reduction (like TKM), give them access to all kinds of armor, keep their heavy weapon bonuses but boost both their general melee and general ranged bonuses all over. Give them nasty specials that really suggests that this guy is nobody you mess with. Give them damage bonuses to weapon they use (Watch me when I kill this creature with only a survival knife) etc.That would put them back into their role as "Commando".
So.. why would you take any other profession, then?
Really, I think this is a non-issue at this point, but I'll understand if you don't want to hear me out on it by now. But, let's review some of the things we know:
1. Commandos don't have specials because their weapons define them.
2. Devs stated that certain weapons, like profession-defining ones, will retain profession-oriented certs.
3. Helios posted here saying he expects it to change as much as anything. I tentatively translate this from the Cautious dialect of DevSpeak to mean "It's changing, but if I say it is and it's not in the next patch, you're going to go nuts, even if it's in the patch after that".
4. A Correspondant, who is admittedly not your own but should probably have some privledged info on this topic, has told you guys the sky isn't falling, hang in there for more info.
You can, of course, choose not to believe the Devs or the BH Correspondant a lick and disregard my opinion as an outsider's, but these signs all seem to me, to point to a fix for the issue already in the works, and very likely in the form of a bunch of Commando-exclusive certs.
Anyway, carry on as you wish.
CapnKate wrote:
JemyM wrote:
Novock wrote:
JemyM wrote:
Im sorry. I dont get it. Can someone sum up the problem with having weapons uncerted, and how that effects Commando? Or BH?
Commandos were told the reason why we didn't get any (thats right not one) special is that our specials are built into the weapons and that we are "defined by our weapons." Now with the new change as it sits on TC anyone with the proper level can equip or weapons. So that which defined our class is open to all.
Now the argument is that they won't be able to use them as well as us... however with the right combination of general mods one can use them almost as well as a Master Commando having never trained a single commanod skill box. This makes commando a proffession to add a little speed or a little accuracy but other than that there no real reason now to train commando especially master commando.
As far as BH I disagree. This hits commanods much harder as we now are the only combat proffession with 0 weapon certs, 0 specials and 0 counter moves. BH still has some awesome specials in their proffession what do we have???????
Ok. I see the problem. Except that I would like to continue on the same path as a solution rather than taking a step back. I always hated weapon Certifications. Anyone with at least basic combat training should be able to use any weapon, even if they arent masters of that specific weapon.
(That comes from a Pistoleer that couldnt use half of the new pistols added in the CU).
I never associated the word "Commando" to "Heavy Weapon Specialist" anyway.
I think they need to beef up Commando as the hardcore combat guy. Give them a natural boost to damage reduction (like TKM), give them access to all kinds of armor, keep their heavy weapon bonuses but boost both their general melee and general ranged bonuses all over. Give them nasty specials that really suggests that this guy is nobody you mess with. Give them damage bonuses to weapon they use (Watch me when I kill this creature with only a survival knife) etc.
That would put them back into their role as "Commando".
So.. why would you take any other profession, then?
Really, I think this is a non-issue at this point, but I'll understand if you don't want to hear me out on it by now. But, let's review some of the things we know:
1. Commandos don't have specials because their weapons define them.
2. Devs stated that certain weapons, like profession-defining ones, will retain profession-oriented certs.
3. Helios posted here saying he expects it to change as much as anything. I tentatively translate this from the Cautious dialect of DevSpeak to mean "It's changing, but if I say it is and it's not in the next patch, you're going to go nuts, even if it's in the patch after that".
4. A Correspondant, who is admittedly not your own but should probably have some privledged info on this topic, has told you guys the sky isn't falling, hang in there for more info.
You can, of course, choose not to believe the Devs or the BH Correspondant a lick and disregard my opinion as an outsider's, but these signs all seem to me, to point to a fix for the issue already in the works, and very likely in the form of a bunch of Commando-exclusive certs.
Anyway, carry on as you wish.
I don't kow SPECIALS.... COUNTER MOVEs
The fact they have to solve a problem is the problem. Its the standard SOE system. Fix something by breaking something else. rather than coding the con to work as it does on live (according to the weapon you're holding) they give universal certs to make grinding low level with a high level toon easier. So they solved the problem but completely destory an entire proffession in doing so.
I'm not sure why you feel its neccessary to come in here and lecture us on being upset but quite frankly I could care less what you think. And if you want to lecture me for being upset you're going to get all you want here in a few minutes.
Message Edited by Novock on 04-14-2005 10:36 AM
CapnKate wrote:
So.. why would you take any other profession, then?
JemyM wrote:
Ok. I see the problem. Except that I would like to continue on the same path as a solution rather than taking a step back. I always hated weapon Certifications. Anyone with at least basic combat training should be able to use any weapon, even if they arent masters of that specific weapon.
(That comes from a Pistoleer that couldnt use half of the new pistols added in the CU).
I never associated the word "Commando" to "Heavy Weapon Specialist" anyway.
I think they need to beef up Commando as the hardcore combat guy. Give them a natural boost to damage reduction (like TKM), give them access to all kinds of armor, keep their heavy weapon bonuses but boost both their general melee and general ranged bonuses all over. Give them nasty specials that really suggests that this guy is nobody you mess with. Give them damage bonuses to weapon they use (Watch me when I kill this creature with only a survival knife) etc.
That would put them back into their role as "Commando".
SamousNemo wrote:
I really don't see the big stink over the whole weapon certs with level thing, am I missing something?
Yes, anyone will be able to use heavy weapons given that their level is high enough, but what would be the point?
Say I'm a MBH/MP/MM/Carb x3xx: my abilities with a pistol are nearly unparalled, but I want to use a flame thrower "just to look cool." Problem is, the only mods that will work with the FT are my generic accuracy and speed mods, which I have +215 and +75 of respectively.
Now say I'm a Master Commando/Carb x4xx/MBH (I'm using MBH in both examples because it has the best generic mods of all the professions). Not only do I have my generic mods of +200 Acc and +60 Sp, but I also have my Heavy Weapon mods of +55 Acc and +45 Sp, giving me a combined total of +255 Acc and +105 Sp. Not to mention I also have +50 HW defense that the above template lacks.
Granted, the Pistoleer template could useHeavy weapons, but they'd be much better off using a Pistol than a FT, so why would they use one in a fight? Yeah,they could opt to just walk around with one to look cool, but how is that any different than now?They still wouldn't be proficient enough with one to use in a fight.
As a master Smuggler/Master Pistoller 0/4/0/0 BH you can fire a plasma FT withh 66 speed and 187 accuracy due to general mods. Thats pretty decent handling of a weapon seeming you can not only get our special (commando specials are buiolt into the weapon) but you get the specials from your proffession as well.
Taking your own example all you gain by masterin commando was 30 points of speed and 40 points of accuracy. An entire proffession for 30 points of speed and 40 ponits of accuracy 0 specials 0 counter moves fairly common defense mods.
if you want to have universal certs on our weapons then give us what every other comabt proffession gets SPECIALS we have none zilch notta! It's not fair to put our specials in our weapons and then allow everyone else to use them with out spending a single SP in commando. That's stupid. So there's 2 solutions:
1. Bring back our certs all of them not just 1 or 2
2. Or treat us like evryone else zand give us specials and counter moves.
Message Edited by Novock on 04-14-2005 11:05 AM
Message Edited by Novock on 04-14-2005 11:11 AM
Pelf wrote:
Except giving commandos the great mods would basicly make it the new FOTM to be used for the mods, instead of whatever other profession is being looked at for this purpose, ie BH has dang near all general ranged mods, so it looks hot for ranged stacking.....give those to commando and it's going to just move the focus fromone to the other, not 'balance' anything out.....ie instead of being a BH/Carbineer they'll now be Commando/Carbineer or just stack Commando and BH. But since certs will play very little role in what you can use and it's all going to be mod based, what ever gives the best mods and a few good/great specials will rule the day.
Honestly being a Commando/BH was looking good in CU till this change came out as a very damaging well mod'ed template, as is, why would someone waste the skill points to even pick commando? just master bh and something that gives more general ranged mods and a few more specials.
Novock wrote:
As a master Smuggler/Master Pistoller 0/4/0/0 BH you can fire a plasma FT withh 66 speed and 187 accuracy due to general mods.
lifeisdeath wrote:
Cougar959 wrote:
IT'S IN TESTING, THINGS CAN AND WILL BE CHANGED.
Wait till the final product is out before everyone dives all over this. Getting hostile has scared off the devs once, don't do it again.
oh i see, wait until everything is tested fully and finalized, then released to live. after that THEN we can complain about it and hope they will change it?
Hey, Cougar is just trying to help them justify their claims that everyone loves the CU and isn't complaining... besides they obviously don't give a cr@p about what veteran players think.
JemyM wrote:
Pelf wrote:
Except giving commandos the great mods would basicly make it the new FOTM to be used for the mods, instead of whatever other profession is being looked at for this purpose, ie BH has dang near all general ranged mods, so it looks hot for ranged stacking.....give those to commando and it's going to just move the focus fromone to the other, not 'balance' anything out.....ie instead of being a BH/Carbineer they'll now be Commando/Carbineer or just stack Commando and BH. But since certs will play very little role in what you can use and it's all going to be mod based, what ever gives the best mods and a few good/great specials will rule the day.
Honestly being a Commando/BH was looking good in CU till this change came out as a very damaging well mod'ed template, as is, why would someone waste the skill points to even pick commando? just master bh and something that gives more general ranged mods and a few more specials.
I really dont care if every combat-hungry player picks up Commando as their profession... all-in-all I see that like what they should have done already.
"Bounty Hunter" should not be the top soldier. Bounty Hunting should be completely based on long-time-preparation.
As the name suggests "Commando" should be the real Soldier, and ifnothing but fighting is what you want to do, Commando should be the first and foremost choice for that.
Novock wrote:
As a master Smuggler/Master Pistoller 0/4/0/0 BH you can fire a plasma FT withh 66 speed and 187 accuracy due to general mods. Thats pretty decent handling of a weapon seeming you can not only get our special (commando specials are buiolt into the weapon) but you get the specials from your proffession as well.
Taking your own example all you gain by masterin commando was 30 points of speed and 40 points of accuracy. An entire proffession for 30 points of speed and 40 ponits of accuracy 0 specials 0 counter moves fairly common defense mods.
Regardless of how "decent" you are with a weapon, you still won't be as good with it unless you pick up the associated profession. Yeah, a Master Smuggler/MP/BH x4xx could wield a Flame Thrower "decently," but they'd still be better off using a De-10 or a Renegade Pistolin a fight. If a non-commando tries using a commando weapon against a commando, the commando is going to out damage him every time.
I agree, the lack of specials and recoveries in commando is a problem, but that's a different topic that could still be fixed even with the level-based certs.