Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Dev Feedback on medical DoTs...
This isnt a game where mass numbers win. It is the right combination.
Say no to AOE Cures:
Otherwise we could then do NO DAMAGE. 8 seconds from hit to tick and AOE cure = no damage.
If they want us to attack healable damage FINE then they cant use a stim UNTIL the cure has been applied. None of this macro use stim in a battle while poison bleeds(yes I think it should apply to bleeds as well). That is not strategy just using a macro. The way the game has it now you need to use your noodle!~! This isnt QUAKE!
ZootZaxxor wrote:Lets see, a master doc can throw a poison cure once about every second
A master doc on his toes should have about 6 people cured by the time the poison starts to tick.
If you a huddled together in a group of more than two or three you are stupid anyway
Wow, i must be doing something wrong, my cure delay is like 6-8 seconds. Though even if it was 1 sec, the DOC would run out of mind curing the first round, which would be followed by your 2nd round.
Zarlor wrote:
KJFett wrote:
Please do go on.....the skill tapes and segs are super rare and often only +1. Furthermore, it is common knowledge that mods only work if you have at least the basic skill (thats why a +5 to medic use will not allow a non-medic to use Stim-Bs) And since there are no base levels to poison and disease def, the robe and belt are useless as well as the mods and tapes. I know because I have a robe and have tested it. It made no difference at all.
If the mods are not working, then that's a bug. There should be no "skill" involved or required for such defenses. As for going on, there are several places where a DoT does not work fully, as it is a two step process. The first part is the crafting. When a CM crafts a DoT their are several areas taht can be experimented, and concentration on one area means less experimentation that can occur in another. There is some alleviation with really great resources (but that's kind of like saying a Pistoleer need to buy a new Krayt-enhanced and sliced FWG5 every 5 combats.)
The relavant stats in question are Potency (which effects the chance a poison will be resisted), Effectiveness (the damage the poison will do per tick) and Range (how far you can trhow it.) Exsperimenting on any one of those areas will mean less effectiveness in any of the others. So it is possible to make a poison that will stick every time, but it will have less range and/or do less damage than a poison that is resisted more often.
The issue here would be that this is a combatant generated resistance, not a victim generated resistance. The answer there is things such as the robes mentioend earlier (and if they are bugged, that simply needs to be fixed, you can't blame CMs for a bug in something else) as well as the new Chef foods coming out. There have been suggestions for adding resistances for these DoTs to some armor as well as suggestions for Docs to produce someform of Immunity packs that would provide resistances.I, personally, tyhink both of the latter options are at least being considered (I know the Doc one was mentioned by the Dev team as at least an interesting idea for consideration for Master Docs, if nothing else), so all of those are alleviators for posions "always sticking" (which even now, they do notalways do.)
At any rate this is not a problem with CM damage, it's a problem with resistances.
The mods only stacking if you have the defense already is common knowledge and not a bug, so the robes and taped do not work. If there is a bug, it is in that we have no reistance for them to stack on. So to get the robes and tapes to work, the devs would have to give erveryone some reistance to poison and disease. Is that really what a CM would want? So for the only reistance in the game to work, the CMs would get nerfed in a small way since everyone would have to have reistance to get the tapes and clothing to mod them.
2)A CM's range is ridiculous. Over 64m for a poison? Will someone kindly explain to me why poison has greater range than a sniper? CMs can just sit back and spam their poisons, and they can hit while out of range ofeven the bestranged weapons.
You can fire your weapon on the run. I can't. As soon as I toss I have to stop for about 4 seconds and then I can move. I would gladly give up range in exchange for being able to apply poison on the run.
The commando that uses his special cone can run, but can't do anything (including heal) for over 10 seconds. A 4 second stop is nothing in combat after a poison has been thrown that hits 40 people
Ummm... I know it keeps getting mentioned, but folks seem to keep ignoring it anyway, but the past 64m range is an acknowledged bug. CM max range is supposed to be 64m. Period. So again, trying to blame CMs for a bug is... well it's rather useless. Anything that happens past 64m as far as CMs are concerned is just a bug and should not be considered a part of what is truly viable with CMs. A fix is in the works for this so trying to argue the point is just wasting time. It's being fixed.
I would also argue that a 4 second stop is a lifetime, but outside of that AoE counters is something I consider a seperate issue from CM damage, again.
In itself, 4 seconds is a while in combat. After giving 40 people a poison that will 99% result in incap and a DB, it isn't very long at all.
3) Poison has no practical limit on how many players it can hit and seems to have a wide radius of effect. If what I am hearing on the forum is true, one CM can poison ten players.
I have personally poisoned well over 40 players in one shot. So what? You realize how stupid that group of players was to be clumped together in a 30m diameter? They deserved to die.
This is the stupidest statement I have yet to read. And you wonder why so many are up in arms? That just added 40 more people to our cause.
No other AOE attack from any other combat class would have hit 10 people in that same group, and the combat class that did hit those few people would have been dead just as fast as a CM. There is no place in this game for a weapon that can hit 40 people at the same time. If that poison ticked at 500 per person to mind, that is 20000 dmg to the entire group for every tick to the same unhealable pool. And that doesn't seem unbalanced? No other combat class can get even close to that. No, not even commando.
And here we discuss that issue. (Although you bring up two issues here, really, so I need to address them seperately.) Personally I concure that AoE needs to have a better counter. Unlike someone tried to say earlier, MDs CANNOT heal every second. Just not possible. Use of a Cure is Based on a a Docs Injury Treatment skill, so they can only cure as fast as they can stim, which is every 3 seconds at Master level. This is only a tiny bit faster than a CM can toss. There is no true counter to AoE poisons, but solution have been offered to include AoE cures and the aforementioned Immunity (effectively resistance) options. As such I would agree this is an issue to consider, but it is definitely seperate from the damage issue.
The second issue you bring up is Mind Damage. This has LONG been an issue within the medical communities, uncluding CMs (who have a rudimentary Mind Heal, but would certainly have liked to have more then that!) Mind damage is very much a seperate issue from CM damage due to the difficulty of healing it. However, this should no longer be an issue at all once the Combat Revamp is completed. So again a solution for that part of the issue is in the works and trying to belabor that point simply does us no good.
However, again what we aretalking about is not an issue with CM damage, it's an issue with an unhealable pool.
20,000 dmg to 40 people in the same pool every tick by a single person isn't a damage issue?
A CM is a medic who's supposed to be able to HEAL on the field, in combat. Defensive. What they have turned into is offensive support troops.
Combat Medics are bio-terrorists plain and simple. There are 11 types of damage in this game that all happen while in combat, yet combat medics can only cure 5 of them. W T F kind of combat medicare we if we can't cure all damage done on the field of battle?
Last I checked, Combat Medics were NOT Bio-Terrorists. Since the Medic name implies healing.. If you want to chuck poisons, go ask the devs to change your names. Last time I checked, the guy doingheart surgery was not called a car salesman.
Where do you get your definition of a Combat Medic? Realize here that this is simply a question of semantics, not game balance. Whatever the heck the name CM means to you as compared to waht it means to anyone else is just a matter of a name. If there is a problem with what CMs in this game do compared to what you thing the name CM means, then petition for a name change.
Again, this has nothingt o do wtih CM damage levels, though.
The game's "current" User Manual is where I get my definition from.
Combat Medic: A healer who also has some field training to increase his odds of survival in battle.
Requirements: Ranged Support Specialist ( Marksman) & Master Medic (Medic)
True, we can all have our opinion on what a CM is, but reality is that the definition above is what SOE gave it. It is SOE's game right? Their definition is what counts.
No need for changing CM DoT attacks for PvP?I suppose 1% item decay despite insurance was a good idea too? There is a reason that people complained profusely about insured item decay in PvP and it'sa great changethat it is being taken out. But only after many players got angry. Perhaps it would be wise to avoid making a mistake (the mistake in this case would be to leave the CM PvP DoTs as they are) rather than having to correct it afterward. The same principle applies to this Imperial Crackdown but that's on another thread.
Blah blah blah complain all you want. We, the dedicated CMs could care less about mindless rants. The DEVs have spoken and for now just s t f u and let the issue die. You think CMs are so badass? Try playing a Master CM. No I don't mean level one up that's just as easy as any class. I mean actually go to a server where you know NO ONE,level up, go on PVP hunts, participate in PVE staying a Master CM and let's see how well you do. You really think you are up for the challenge? I didn't think so...
Ask to get your other problems fixed. I don't care what they are. I don't care how bad you have it in the other parts of your profession. Those problems don't affect the entire game and the entire player base. I do care about the balance of the game as it does affect the entire player base, and that balance doesn't allow room for an overpowered, bugged profession skill tha destroys PVP combat in a sinlge attack.
The problem here is that you are arguing for a reduction to CM damage as if that were the real solution. It simply is not the solution because teh problem you are having with the capabilites of the CM profession are not actually problems with the amount of damage CMs do with DoTs. They have everything to do with other areas of CM abilities and bugs and the majority of those other issues ARE being addressed. Damage for CMs IS balanced (in PvP), it's just all of those other issues that paly into the situation that make some people think that it is not balanced. It's not damage that needs fixing, it's all that other stuff and most of it is being fixed.
What part of:
The devs said ALL PVP damage was to be reduced by 75%
do you not understand? Sure there are other bugs. There are alot of bugs in all professions. I am argueing a reduction in PVP Damage because it is clearlya bug. As in not what the devs intended when they made that comment back then. You can try to blame other factors all you want, but the issue remains that ALL PVP damage is supposed to be reduced, and CMs are not.
I asked your Cor. to go to the devs and ask them to post specifically to settle this issue of a lack of PVP dmg reduction. I said if that was done, this issue would go away. He either has chosen not to, is in the process of getting it, or they have refused. Unitl that dev post is created, we will continue to feel this imbalance is a destructive bug in PVP. It is in the best interest of all CMs that this issue be addressed head on as it is the only way to stop the people like me from feeling it is bugged.
They likely will not respond outside of the very respoinse you have above because they have ALREADY RESPONDED. They feel CM damage IS balanced. It is all of the other issues you are trying to shoehorn into CM damage that are the problem, not the damage itself. Besides, the Devs don't dance a jig to respond to everything just because we ask them to. They have too many other things to do, like fixing all that other stuff mentioned above that have nothing to do with CM damage levels. So you may think you can ask them to do a jig and respond to your request, but I would netiher get your hopes up, nor would I assign any particular importance to theri not responding. Their not responding simply means they are not responding, it is not support for any one point of view or other.
They haven't responded ALREADY, because the issue of the lack of a PVP damage reduction wasnever addressed. Eventually, they will have to address it. For us that feel it is a bug and for the CMs here. Unitl they do so, it will still be veiwed as a bug. I think the Devs will make it know one way or the other since the issue is severe to PVP.
Trust me, the CMs need a post on this just as badly as the rest of us. It is the only way to put the issue to rest. That and changing the name from Combat medic to Evil Scientist or something.
Am i the only one who can't figure out what KJfett actually wrote in that last post?
there are too many colour changes to discern which are "new" inserts and which are "old"...
heh
KJFett wrote:
The mods only stacking if you have the defense already is common knowledge and not a bug, so the robes and taped do not work. If there is a bug, it is in that we have no reistance for them to stack on. So to get the robes and tapes to work, the devs would have to give erveryone some reistance to poison and disease. Is that really what a CM would want? So for the only reistance in the game to work, the CMs would get nerfed in a small way since everyone would have to have reistance to get the tapes and clothing to mod them.
Yes, it would, in fact, be a bug. If you have a defense condition that exists in the game that is otherwise nt attainable, then you have a bug. Personally I was unaware this was an issue at all. Do you have any dev or Correspondent references acknowledging this bug? (That's simple curiosity talking, BTW, not a confrontation.) However, everyone would not need some resistance for such a thing to work, even if these worked that way, simply because you can provide every a +0 resistance. and you ahve something to add onto. At any rate there is still resistance inherint in the system. ALL poisons may be resisted. It is only the skill of the CM, the resources used and proiper experimentation that can make is SEEM as if they are never resisted. Resistanceis built into the packs, however.
And more resistances are on the way, at least in the form of Chef foods and possibly others.
Still, this part of the argument is irrelavent because it's a resistance issue, not a damage issue. (It does not make the issue less relavent in general, mind you, but for the purposes of this thread which is about CM damage, it is not relavent.)
In itself, 4 seconds is a while in combat. After giving 40 people a poison that will 99% result in incap and a DB, it isn't very long at all.
Again, however, an AoE issue, not a Damage issue. See below.
20,000 dmg to 40 people in the same pool every tick by a single person isn't a damage issue?
That is correct. It is an AoE issue. It is only because of the lack of a better counter to AoE that so much damage is even possible to begin with. ($0 people? WHat the hell are 40 people doing in AoE range? ANd AoE is another one of the experimentable attributes, so if you experiment for a wide area poison something else is gonna suffer, so that's some MIGHTY mighty posions doing that much damage! 500 tick poison? Wow! BUt that just seems like bad tactics to me. Either that or you are in a base and the AoE through walls bug is your problem, but I digress since again we aren;t really talking about a Damage issue here.)
So sure, reducing damage would fix that, but it would ROYALLY screw CMs in every other aspect of their capabilities in smaller groups. THe smaller the group the more useless the CM becomes. Instead adress the AoE issue and you address the actual problem without messing with a properly balanced CM damage level.
The game's "current" User Manual is where I get my definition from.
Combat Medic: A healer who also has some field training to increase his odds of survival in battle.
Requirements: Ranged Support Specialist ( Marksman) & Master Medic (Medic)
True, we can all have our opinion on what a CM is, but reality is that the definition above is what SOE gave it. It is SOE's game right? Their definition is what counts.
But their definition is ever changing. That's not hee definition you will find on the Holocron. It is not hee definition you will find in the "official" Strategy Guide. THis is also a MMOG, the very nature of which is virtually defined by change. So the best I can suggest is to either petition for a name change or petition for a better definition (which the CMs HAVE done and have not gotten and answer for.) I will say that I don;t think they want to give us the answer because they want the definition to remain somewhat flexible.
What part of:
The devs said ALL PVP damage was to be reduced by 75%
do you not understand? Sure there are other bugs. There are alot of bugs in all professions. I am argueing a reduction in PVP Damage because it is clearlya bug. As in not what the devs intended when they made that comment back then. You can try to blame other factors all you want, but the issue remains that ALL PVP damage is supposed to be reduced, and CMs are not.
Whatg part of "Poison and Disease damageis relatively balanced and there's not as much reason to change them." do YOU not understand? That is a newer statement direct from the Devs directly refuting that 75% was ever mean to include CM poisons or disease. The statement made then was not blanket, it was not aimed at us as the recent Devs statments clearly show.
They haven't responded ALREADY, because the issue of the lack of a PVP damage reduction wasnever addressed. Eventually, they will have to address it. For us that feel it is a bug and for the CMs here. Unitl they do so, it will still be veiwed as a bug. I think the Devs will make it know one way or the other since the issue is severe to PVP.
Trust me, the CMs need a post on this just as badly as the rest of us. It is the only way to put the issue to rest. That and changing the name from Combat medic to Evil Scientist or something.
Let me put it another way:
Poison and Disease damageis relatively balanced and there's not as much reason to change them.
Direct Dev statement, or mor properly a statement, amongst other statements, that Pahdbacca, as CM correspondent, was allowed to post to this forum from a discussion occuring on the Correspondent forum. Trust me on this one. That IS official word. The Devs directly approved that statement. I have read the original statments that surrounded it. I would suggest that your not reading that as an official position is taking it out of context. That IS an official statement, authorized by the Devs for posting on this very forum. I personally can attest to the original Dev statements that back up that official position. Feel free to ask any other Correspondent to back up that they also have witnessed this exact statement and that it came, officially, from the Development Team of this very MMOG. What more do you need? I'm at a loss.
I can't believe all this whining about CM damage!
So yes the CMs will say no we're not overpowered cause we always die.. and yes they do.. but as long as they manage to hit a group with one poison or disease they have done more damage than 5 teras kasi masters could do.
Obviously, this person has never played a Teras Kasi Master.
I partner with a combat medic regularly. His bio-weapons are formidable, but I can kill him in two hits. If he poisons me in a duel, I heal up with a standard stim-b and sit down.
What? Didn't take novice medic? Playing alone? Guess what - poor baby, you're gonna have to wait it out and hope nobody hits you in the meantime. It's not like a poison alone can kill you. Let me say it one more time for the slow people (you know who you are): A POISON ALONE CAN NOT KILL YOU.
Hrm... Maybe you DON'T know who you are?
Why is it that CM's are getting attacked and everybody's okay with Commando flame dots that do EXACTLY the same thing? Stacking defences render some PvP attackers all but completely immune from status changes. The bounty hunters are still arguing to have game mechanics lead them directly to player targets for non-stop grief action!
Puh-leeze. I've personally played no fewer than 6 classes that can outdamage poison in PvP, and that's WITH the 75% reduction. Poisons are fine as they are.
What part of:
The devs said ALL PVP damage was to be reduced by 75% do you not understand?
I get it! KJFett and others posting like him had their delusions of godhood destroyed by a poison and a lucky shot, and couldn't handle it. That's what happened, right?
Want to know why a military platoon doesn't stand around all clustered together on a battlefield? Who cares if you do? I'll tell 'ya anyway. They're called GRENADES. A hand grenade can readilytake out 10 people all standing around together, and there's no save against it, no cure, and kills a hell of a lot faster than CM poison does.
"(poison) Grenades"are the domain of the Combat Medic. Get over it.
Don't like your group getting poisoned? Spread out. Can't handle being the one who DOES get poisoned? Kill the guy who poisoned you, then heal yourself, or RUN AWAY and heal yourself. Bring a healer if you weren't thinking enough to take novice medic. Sounds like all the whiners are upset because they were unprepared, and they died.
Well, boo-bloody-hoo! Cry me a freakin' river.
This game's PvP should consist of more than exploit-defense stacking. The fact that something can land on the otherwise invincible players is, in my own opinion, a GOOD thing. It helps bring back tactics and preparedness.
Now, if you want to focus on an overpowered class, I'd recommendattacking the flamers. Er... The commandos I mean.
Pardon me while I duck.
- An amused commando
Apologies for the typos. My spelling is good, but it is late and my fingers falter.
so there are 33 professions...and every 3-5 players should be a doctor. I realize you say every 3-5 players need to bring a doctor, but unless doctors play alot more, how does that work out? Specially since "being a doctor" doesn't really appeal to most people who play video games...
I don't think there are enough doctors, or that it makes sense that 20-30% of a fighting group should be doctors, all because a combat medic can annihilate 10, 20, however many people stand in 30m radius at once. I know that there are technically 128m around a combat medic (64m a side) for people to spread themselves out, but how often does a battle revolve around a character, it's usually at a base etc. I still say random, averaged out area attacks like above, or maybe even a smaller radius like 10m.
But i also don't aggree with some people saying area cures are the answer cause that would pretty much trash your proffession.
why not just remove mind poison fromt he game and be done with it heh (slight sarcasm)
anyway. Yes, other DoT's do suffer PvP reductions. Why? Because the base attack of a blaster, sword, or other melee/ranged weapon takes the following factors into account on the base of the hit: Damage Mitigation, Armor, and PvP reductions. I can tage a 2k-3k (if im lucky) bleed on a creature or NPC with 2 stacked bleeds.
Ine PvP this usually turns into 100 or less per tick if the guy is wearing composite armor from all my experiences. A bit more if im lucky or the person isnt wearing much in the way of armor. Stacked poisons on a player will do FAR more damage than this, PLUS they have the added benefit of ignoring ALL armor.
There is NO WAY you can argue there is not a vast gap in damage ratios when you take in all the factors.
On the note of range...from my experience CM range seems to be increased due to the nature of the beast. I have seen poisons "jump" if you will, outside your so called "range of effect" you all claim. Ive seen CM's sit ehre and say their AoE range is only 20m. BS my friend. I have been poisoned RECENTLY well out of 64m Range, how do i knwo that? because the CM was still out of range of a pistol when I got tagged with a poison by him.
In short I dont know what else to say, I do not see what other proof or arguments you guys and the devs need to make changes to this that need to be made. All you need to do is tell me what further proof you require and Ill do my best to give it. CM's affect the outcomes of PvP battles far more than probably any other class.
Many of you have stated you liek the fact CM's determine the outcome so largely. Some of you have even stated that is the CM's "purpose". I'm sorry to burst your bubble but NO class should be able to singly determien the outcome of a battle, except perhaps squad leaders...and even that steps on peoples' toes so we wont go there. A GROUP of CM's, ok maybe.....but not a single individual able to poison and put damage on 10 or more people all at once.
Another problem you guys dont realize is this. As I have stated, many uber wannabe PvP grups who do pretty much nothing but PvP carry around large groups of Combat medics and Riflemen because they do attack the weakest pool in the game. You get an enemy group with a good # of CM's, riflemen, or riflemen/CM's and the battle turns into a pretty stupid portrayel of cheese tactics and even worse gameplay. It almost forces you to either bring twice as many people, 3 times as many doctors to cure poisons, or to (shiver and sigh) bring as many CM/Riflemen of your own.
And yes Rhengordon. Riflemen do attack the mind. But riflemen can only attack one player at a time. CM's can atatck the minds of, essentially, as many people as they have in range. That is the difference CM's seem to fail to bring to bear.
Look, plain and simple. Im not trying to ruin the CM proffession. Im not directly asking for a nerf on your profession....i dont like nerfs. But as I have said, in ALL my experience poison is very overpowered in pvP. There are many solutions that can be made that go around actually nerfing the CM proffession. The thing is YOU GUYS need to buck up and say "yes theres a slight problem here" and help get the issue addressed. Theres a TON of things that can be done without directly getting the CM proff changed......and please face it, CM is overpowered for PvP.
I want the game to be fun.....but that cannot happen with large imbalances. Seriously....when battles are starting to be determined by 1 or 2 proffessions in the game....and you are forced to counteract just that proffession or two in PvP conflicts....it really really messes with the fun factor of the game. it is no fun to lead a group of effective and determined fighters, only to have an entire group poisoned in a single go...thats just ridiculous.
a few solutions that have seemed to go over well lately......modifying my earlier list:
-Give doctors area cure
-barring area cure, allow poison to only be applied to one person at a time in PvP (if doc's do not get an area cure, then there should be no area attack)
-add some type of mind heal (something greatly needed and has never truly been implemented...i knw what a strain it is for CM's to currently heal mind). What strikes me as funny is that the Dev's came out and said a while back that mind was NEVER supposed to play such a decisive role in PvP as it does.....and yet here we are. They giveth with the rigth hand and yet do the opposite with the left.
-PvP reduction of CM damages
-add resists (sum1 stated that chef's were goign to be able to do this next publish....does anyone know how effective/ to what extent this is really helpful????)
so....other comments? And please refrain from the nerf/troll posts. As I said im not trying to call for a huge nerf on CM's.....but there is obviously an issue here and it needs to be resolved.