Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Dev Feedback on medical DoTs...
As a master doc, I cure faster than 6 - 8 seconds, and I typically do not use up mind all that badly either. If I do use up a lot of mind, Muon will regenerate it fast. I am trying to remember the last time I was in a fight on the winning side or the losing side where I used up all my mind. I usually am hit with some sort of mind attack that depletes the pool before I use it up.
sirkuurus26 wrote:
ZootZaxxor wrote:
Lets see, a master doc can throw a poison cure once about every second
A master doc on his toes should have about 6 people cured by the time the poison starts to tick.
If you a huddled together in a group of more than two or three you are stupid anyway
Wow, i must be doing something wrong, my cure delay is like 6-8 seconds. Though even if it was 1 sec, the DOC would run out of mind curing the first round, which would be followed by your 2nd round.
First off you can't compare this to a real war because those aren't meant to be fun. And in alot of cases, the idea isn't to kill but to disarm.
Next..
Cure poison uses tons of mind power. at 1100 mind and 750 focus and willpower, no armour.. it still uses a crap load. And no i don't run myself out of mind because it's impossible to cure all the poison, you'll only apply it again.
Here is the bottom line, there is no suitable cure for area poison right now. Those that sit and try to cure these people will understand this. It's a no win battle. Poison is far worse the fire damage because atleast the person stands a chance to heal themself. If you need 4 docs to equal out 1 CM, is this really called balanced??? I think not.
Lets say a TKM is alone, and 3 master fencers jump him. Imagen that these 3 fencers can't beat him cuz balance is set that it needs 4 to even compete? Would it be fair for these fencers to cry nerf? How would you feel if devs told you, nah, it's balanced?
I guess you did't read the whole post? My comments in regards to a lack of a CM in SW also stated that there were still poisons and disease, but from Scientists. Furthermore, the primary reason for scrubbers and an oxygen supply in armor suits was for use in space. If a suit is designed to withstand the vacuum of space, it would handle a poison or disease as well since no air can get in or out of the sealed suit. If you want to know how that process would work, go read the armorsmith forum...its in there a couple places.
inf-badguy wrote:
But wait I thought you said there was nothing combat related like toxins or infections in the expanded universe that would constitute the existance of combat medics. Me thinks someone may be making up ficticious information to solidify his already errant pointss
KJFett wrote:
Did you not read his post when you made that comment? compare everything to real life? He was talking about composite armor...which is in the game not RL. Comp armor does have a enclosed sealedhelmet just as ubese does. Both have 1 to 2 hour oxygen cannisters as well as scrubbers designed to filter out toxins in the books. So yes it can stop infections and bio weapons in the books, and should in the game as well.
Grozurr - I really liked your post, constructive and informitive. I really am a reasonable guy, usually. hehe just been a bit frustrated with poison on the battle field these past few daysand some of the remarks by <some> of the CM's in here have lit a bit of a fire under my ass.
anyways -
Thanks for your REASONABLE opinion and more or less objective overview. You're a credit to your profession.
I have a few questions and observations, but not a whole lot of time at the moment.
I just finished reading a couple other posts, and you mentioned that poisons can stack - ABC -
ouch.
what is the "average" dmg on A's, B's, C's? (and also the upper end dmg with good materials?). I think tempest must have some pretty good resources 'cause a lot of my pvp buddies are braggin about their disease/poison packs right now.
That said - in the new patch will poisons stack with eachother on the mind? all other dots will not stack (I will no longer be able to stack mindshot1 and 2). will you be affected by this?
A personal opinion - I really don't care what dmg ANYONE does PvE. Especially for poisons and Dots (those nightsister elder's are tough ho's) - make your dots do 2000+ pve and reduce it pvp, sounds good to me - though if they didn't stack maybe i wouldn't think they were so uber in pvp? maybe that's what i'm getting hit with a lot, i don't honestly know.
I think I will get together with some of the people that poison me on a regular basis and do some testing - see what kind of dots their putting on me and how fast it takes me out. (for my own enlightenment).
Have a good day guys -
Haywood wrote:
Its a simple question of fairness:
an fwg that hits for 400 PVE does 100 in PVP
a poison that hits for 400 in PVE does 400 in PVP
_______________________________________________________________________________________--
You are correct, a poison that hits for 400 PvP should hit for 1600 in PvE. That will allow the CM to be effectiv e PvE and silence all the people that feel the CM should have the 75% reduction in damage for PvP.
Cheers
I actual wrote that...
How exactly do you justifya class that has one single line of combat support doing as much damag in combat (pve or pvp) as a true combat class with all skill points invested in combat skills?
My example was pointing out that a poison and an fwg that did the same dmg in PVE combat were serously unbalnaced in PVP
Gnuut wrote:
Jeisyn wrote:
just a note: i have a +14 poison defense aukuan robe - as near as i can tell, it's done f*k all for defense to poison - i still get hit with it all the time -
Get more defense then.We spend alot of time to make our poisons hard to resist. Sounds like it's paying off.
These defenses dont work since there is no base defense in the game for them to stack on to. He is not the only one to find the robe ineffctive, everyone with the robe or the belt have found the same to be true. Your comments on this just go to show you lack of knowledge on the mods and how they work. The devs said they only work if you have that skill to begin with. Thats why the non-medic can not have a +5 med use skill tape and use Stim Bs. Just as since there is no profession that gives def to poisons and diseases, so the mods don't work.
I have already addressed the rest of your rants time and time again so I wont waste my breath on them again here.
Diggner wrote:
You still miss the point. The poisons does not do damage every second. It does it over time which averages 75 per SECOND. How much damage does a Rifleman do PER SECOND. These poisons are not hitting for 400-800 from 90m unless you have Battle Fatigue(again then you are not utilizing another game mechanic as intended... dancers). The new foods will be nice to solve some of the babies I will bne interested to see how people will cry after this one.
Oh btw I am a BH now
I am glad I dropped it now. Don't worry...you'll fit right in over there.
It is commonly known that the riflemen will be getting a slower cap on speed. The devs seem to think that 4 of 5 seconds to cap a rifleman would be good (run a search..it was alittle while ago that the devs posted about that). So your example with riflemen is using a bugged part of the game and so invalid. When diseased and poisoned, the battle fatigue climbs form 0 to 200+ at the same time the the poison and disease are working, resulting in a snowball effect.
ZootZaxxor wrote:
Lets see, a master doc can throw a poison cure once about every second
A master doc on his toes should have about 6 people cured by the time the poison starts to tick.
If you a huddled together in a group of more than two or three you are stupid anyway
huddled? We aren't stacked on topof each otherfor crying out load. The AOE range is about 30m, or so some of the othe CMs have posted earlier. Thats hardly huddled. 30m is alot of space.
KJFett wrote:
Please do go on.....the skill tapes and segs are super rare and often only +1. Furthermore, it is common knowledge that mods only work if you have at least the basic skill (thats why a +5 to medic use will not allow a non-medic to use Stim-Bs) And since there are no base levels to poison and disease def, the robe and belt are useless as well as the mods and tapes. I know because I have a robe and have tested it. It made no difference at all.
If the mods are not working, then that's a bug. There should be no "skill" involved or required for such defenses. As for going on, there are several places where a DoT does not work fully, as it is a two step process. The first part is the crafting. When a CM crafts a DoT their are several areas taht can be experimented, and concentration on one area means less experimentation that can occur in another. There is some alleviation with really great resources (but that's kind of like saying a Pistoleer need to buy a new Krayt-enhanced and sliced FWG5 every 5 combats.)
The relavant stats in question are Potency (which effects the chance a poison will be resisted), Effectiveness (the damage the poison will do per tick) and Range (how far you can trhow it.) Exsperimenting on any one of those areas will mean less effectiveness in any of the others. So it is possible to make a poison that will stick every time, but it will have less range and/or do less damage than a poison that is resisted more often.
The issue here would be that this is a combatant generated resistance, not a victim generated resistance. The answer there is things such as the robes mentioend earlier (and if they are bugged, that simply needs to be fixed, you can't blame CMs for a bug in something else) as well as the new Chef foods coming out. There have been suggestions for adding resistances for these DoTs to some armor as well as suggestions for Docs to produce someform of Immunity packs that would provide resistances.I, personally, tyhink both of the latter options are at least being considered (I know the Doc one was mentioned by the Dev team as at least an interesting idea for consideration for Master Docs, if nothing else), so all of those are alleviators for posions "always sticking" (which even now, they do notalways do.)
At any rate this is not a problem with CM damage, it's a problem with resistances.
2)A CM's range is ridiculous. Over 64m for a poison? Will someone kindly explain to me why poison has greater range than a sniper? CMs can just sit back and spam their poisons, and they can hit while out of range ofeven the bestranged weapons.
You can fire your weapon on the run. I can't. As soon as I toss I have to stop for about 4 seconds and then I can move. I would gladly give up range in exchange for being able to apply poison on the run.
The commando that uses his special cone can run, but can't do anything (including heal) for over 10 seconds. A 4 second stop is nothing in combat after a poison has been thrown that hits 40 people
Ummm... I know it keeps getting mentioned, but folks seem to keep ignoring it anyway, but the past 64m range is an acknowledged bug. CM max range is supposed to be 64m. Period. So again, trying to blame CMs for a bug is... well it's rather useless. Anything that happens past 64m as far as CMs are concerned is just a bug and should not be considered a part of what is truly viable with CMs. A fix is in the works for this so trying to argue the point is just wasting time. It's being fixed.
I would also argue that a 4 second stop is a lifetime, but outside of that AoE counters is something I consider a seperate issue from CM damage, again.
3) Poison has no practical limit on how many players it can hit and seems to have a wide radius of effect. If what I am hearing on the forum is true, one CM can poison ten players.
I have personally poisoned well over 40 players in one shot. So what? You realize how stupid that group of players was to be clumped together in a 30m diameter? They deserved to die.
This is the stupidest statement I have yet to read. And you wonder why so many are up in arms? That just added 40 more people to our cause.
No other AOE attack from any other combat class would have hit 10 people in that same group, and the combat class that did hit those few people would have been dead just as fast as a CM. There is no place in this game for a weapon that can hit 40 people at the same time. If that poison ticked at 500 per person to mind, that is 20000 dmg to the entire group for every tick to the same unhealable pool. And that doesn't seem unbalanced? No other combat class can get even close to that. No, not even commando.
And here we discuss that issue. (Although you bring up two issues here, really, so I need to address them seperately.) Personally I concure that AoE needs to have a better counter. Unlike someone tried to say earlier, MDs CANNOT heal every second. Just not possible. Use of a Cure is Based on a a Docs Injury Treatment skill, so they can only cure as fast as they can stim, which is every 3 seconds at Master level. This is only a tiny bit faster than a CM can toss. There is no true counter to AoE poisons, but solution have been offered to include AoE cures and the aforementioned Immunity (effectively resistance) options. As such I would agree this is an issue to consider, but it is definitely seperate from the damage issue.
The second issue you bring up is Mind Damage. This has LONG been an issue within the medical communities, uncluding CMs (who have a rudimentary Mind Heal, but would certainly have liked to have more then that!) Mind damage is very much a seperate issue from CM damage due to the difficulty of healing it. However, this should no longer be an issue at all once the Combat Revamp is completed. So again a solution for that part of the issue is in the works and trying to belabor that point simply does us no good.
However, again what we aretalking about is not an issue with CM damage, it's an issue with an unhealable pool.
A CM is a medic who's supposed to be able to HEAL on the field, in combat. Defensive. What they have turned into is offensive support troops.
Combat Medics are bio-terrorists plain and simple. There are 11 types of damage in this game that all happen while in combat, yet combat medics can only cure 5 of them. W T F kind of combat medicare we if we can't cure all damage done on the field of battle?
Last I checked, Combat Medics were NOT Bio-Terrorists. Since the Medic name implies healing.. If you want to chuck poisons, go ask the devs to change your names. Last time I checked, the guy doingheart surgery was not called a car salesman.
Where do you get your definition of a Combat Medic? Realize here that this is simply a question of semantics, not game balance. Whatever the heck the name CM means to you as compared to waht it means to anyone else is just a matter of a name. If there is a problem with what CMs in this game do compared to what you thing the name CM means, then petition for a name change.
Again, this has nothingt o do wtih CM damage levels, though.
No need for changing CM DoT attacks for PvP?I suppose 1% item decay despite insurance was a good idea too? There is a reason that people complained profusely about insured item decay in PvP and it'sa great changethat it is being taken out. But only after many players got angry. Perhaps it would be wise to avoid making a mistake (the mistake in this case would be to leave the CM PvP DoTs as they are) rather than having to correct it afterward. The same principle applies to this Imperial Crackdown but that's on another thread.
Blah blah blah complain all you want. We, the dedicated CMs could care less about mindless rants. The DEVs have spoken and for now just s t f u and let the issue die. You think CMs are so badass? Try playing a Master CM. No I don't mean level one up that's just as easy as any class. I mean actually go to a server where you know NO ONE,level up, go on PVP hunts, participate in PVE staying a Master CM and let's see how well you do. You really think you are up for the challenge? I didn't think so...
Ask to get your other problems fixed. I don't care what they are. I don't care how bad you have it in the other parts of your profession. Those problems don't affect the entire game and the entire player base. I do care about the balance of the game as it does affect the entire player base, and that balance doesn't allow room for an overpowered, bugged profession skill tha destroys PVP combat in a sinlge attack.
The problem here is that you are arguing for a reduction to CM damage as if that were the real solution. It simply is not the solution because teh problem you are having with the capabilites of the CM profession are not actually problems with the amount of damage CMs do with DoTs. They have everything to do with other areas of CM abilities and bugs and the majority of those other issues ARE being addressed. Damage for CMs IS balanced (in PvP), it's just all of those other issues that paly into the situation that make some people think that it is not balanced. It's not damage that needs fixing, it's all that other stuff and most of it is being fixed.
They likely will not respond outside of the very respoinse you have above because they have ALREADY RESPONDED. They feel CM damage IS balanced. It is all of the other issues you are trying to shoehorn into CM damage that are the problem, not the damage itself. Besides, the Devs don't dance a jig to respond to everything just because we ask them to. They have too many other things to do, like fixing all that other stuff mentioned above that have nothing to do with CM damage levels. So you may think you can ask them to do a jig and respond to your request, but I would netiher get your hopes up, nor would I assign any particular importance to theri not responding. Their not responding simply means they are not responding, it is not support for any one point of view or other.
I asked your Cor. to go to the devs and ask them to post specifically to settle this issue of a lack of PVP dmg reduction. I said if that was done, this issue would go away. He either has chosen not to, is in the process of getting it, or they have refused. Unitl that dev post is created, we will continue to feel this imbalance is a destructive bug in PVP. It is in the best interest of all CMs that this issue be addressed head on as it is the only way to stop the people like me from feeling it is bugged.
It has been brought up....The Devs are aware of the issue. I would rather they spend time on issues that CMs figure more important since they have stated medical DoT is where they want it at the moment. One of those issues is what kind of role are CMs to play in SWG...not what king of role the riflemen and BH want them to play, but what kind of role the Devs want them to play.
KJFett wrote:
asked your Cor. to go to the devs and ask them to post specifically to settle this issue of a lack of PVP dmg reduction. I said if that was done, this issue would go away. He either has chosen not to, is in the process of getting it, or they have refused. Unitl that dev post is created, we will continue to feel this imbalance is a destructive bug in PVP. It is in the best interest of all CMs that this issue be addressed head on as it is the only way to stop the people like me from feeling it is bugged.
one on one,yah combat medics aren't overpowered at all, infact your gonna die 9 times out of 10. But as soon as you guys are put into groups over 3 then it starts to go down hill. If one side has a combat medic, in a 5 on 5 fight, then thats that. If the side with a combat medic knows what they are doing the fight is decided before it started. If both sides have a combat medic well then it still isn't fun, cause everyone is gonna die from poisons etc. It is the only combat class that is a massive pain in the #$%. It's not fun when everyone is poisoned, fights are over way to quick. Everyone argues about bring a doctor, bring 3 doctors, i dont do 800 a tick it's impossible, i can't heal every second it's impossible, max poison damage is 300, no it's 700. I really think that if it didnt come down to poison hitting 10 people at once then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. And yes cm's I know we shouldn't stand next to each other. But it's not always an option. I just think that if cm's shouldn't hit as many as they do.
i don't see why they get to poison EVERYTHING in their radius. Maybe a graduated system depending on how many people have the chance of being affected.
If there is one person in the damage radius, he should get it...gauranteed
if there is 2 then 80% of the time they should both get it
if there is 3 then 70% of the time they should all get it
once you get up to 5 I don't think all 5 should ever get it, maybe average 3 of the 5 will get poisoned
if there are 10 people in a group I don't think they should ever get over 5 of them poisoned at one time. If I could put a massive poison on 5 people at once, effectively killing them if their are unable to get a doctor within the minute...that is pretty powerfull. But to wipe out 10 people cause there is no doctor around is just retarded.