Combat Medic Archive

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Smugglers don't get jack for inborne defenses - no ranged mitigation, no melee mit, and no ranged/melee defense. Half of their profession is gained by combat experience. I'm sure that by using the DPS figures that have been developed by members of the CM community would show them nearly right in line with what a Master Smuggler can do without anyother professions to support. I don't hear them cry that they have weak defenses or that they are the boon of always being targeted first. Let's take a look.... Oh, btw, the post I get info from is a CM making a post in the CM forum. The post recieved 4 stars and copious backing by the CM community. Let's look. CM-developed Poison DPS thread

I'll compare a Master Smuggler with a very nice FWG5 (1.8 speed, 63-300 damage) to a Combat Medic using the facts and figures developed by your own community.

Let's do some very quick math to determine the damage against a helpless meatsack of a CM test subject. This CM has 80% base armor and 44% synthsteaks and the CM's ranged defense will assumed to be zero. This smuggler is spamming the highest damaging pistol special in the game Last Ditch, which is a smuggler skill.

Using this highly rated damage calculator from hereyou can see that before the PvP reduction and armor/food reductions a smuggler will do 302.5 DPS. Let's do a little more math to see what the damage is after these reductions.

75% PvP reduction: 302.5 X .25 = 75.6 DPS

Armor piercing 0 gun against light armor: 75.6 DPS X .75 = 56.7 DPS

80% energy protection: 56.7 X .2 = 11.3 DPS

44% damage reducing synthsteaks: 11.3 X .56 = 6.3 DPS

Against a NAKED CM a Master Smuggler will do 75.6 DPS on a random pool. If the CM had money, intelligence, or even care the MS would do 6.3 DPS. This is with a gun that would probably sell for 500k plus credits.

This site from your own forums which has been given copious praise and backing say that the DPS of its "BIG BOY" is...... *drum roll please*...... 66 DPS for a fully effectiveness experimented Poison C.

Okay... if your "naked" CM (no armor on or foods) comes into battle with a fully armored and fed Master Smuggler, the MS would do 75.6 DPS, while the CM would do only 66 DPS. But seeing how people wear armor in pvp, let's just say the MS only does 6.3 DPS.

How you guys complain about lower than normal DPS is far beyond me. Let me go further and show how rediculous the 66 DPS figure was arrived at.

Let's see what a master pistoleer/BH pistols/Dirty Fighting of Smuggler combatant would do in terms of DPS with Last Ditch using a 170-355 damage DX2. The damage caculator site gives me this:2362.5 DPS before armor and 75% pvp reduction.

75% Reduction: 2362.5 X .25 = 590.6 DPS

No armor piercing reduction

80% armor resists: 590.6 X .2 = 118.1 DPS

44% synthsteaks: 118.1 X .56 = 66.1 DPS

Whoa!!!! This DPS is right in line with the CM damage. If the "elite" pistoleer was using a stun geonosian blaster with similar stats they would be doing 590.6 X .56 = 330.7 DPS!!!!!!! Wow! 330.7 DPS is much much much greater than the claimed 66 DPS for a CM.

Yet in your post above neutrineaux, you say that CM's are always targeted first. What a complete waste of time!!!!! Why do so many combat teams on sooo many servers choose to take CM's out first when a pistoleer can outdamage them by a HUGE factor of 5? I'm confounded.

This data either shows that all of these combat teams are either extremely misguided in their tactics and might even be the victims of high-lead in their water supply as children OR the DPS calculated by your own in-house CM's is highly incorrect.

From personal experience I think it's the second option. CM damage is so high that they are by necessity targeted first. They are also rarely deathblown.... so as to keep them out of combat longer.

My parting question to you neutrineaux is "Do weak defenses justify extremely high damage in PvP?" Is it right to say that just because you are given nearly no defenses at all, that it is OK to cut swaths through large enemy combat teams?

If you think it is justification, take a look at the Master Smuggler. They get a grand total (including the mods they get from novice brawler/marksman) of +2 ranged and +2 melee defense with NOTHING ELSE for defenses, yet they can only do 6.3 DPS in PvP.

They have lower defenses than a MCM, and waaaayyyy lower DPS. I'll just leave that food for thought with you.

In conclusion, CM's do very high DPS in PvP despite whatis presented on your board and the weak defenses you guys recieve is no justification to keep these high DPS poison attacks at the current strength level they are at. A mathematical representation of a CM's DPS is seen all through this thread and was not developed here, but player habits of targeting CM's first coupled with comparison with a weak and strong form of pistoleer show that the 66 DPS figure derived by CM's is faulty.

Furthermore, check out my posts in that CM developed DPS thread where I debunk it.

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lol I've never seen so much effort put into an argument that I don't think anyone would disagree with.... A MCM is much more dangerous then a Master Smugler in large scale PVP.A Master Smugler in a large PVP battle is a bit more dangerous then a Master Ranger. Why didn't you use a Master Droid Engineer in your example? We out-damage the polititians too... and have more defences with our ranged defence of 6 and melee defence of 2.

This discussion is about DPS.No fighting class has worse DPS then a smuggler. If you have to go that low down the fighting tree to prove your point, aren't youin effectdisproving your point?

So what are you proposing anyway? You beleive that CMs can do too much damage so nerf them into uselessness or give some way of coutering them? Having a doc around aparently isn't a good enough counter since there is no room for doc in the uber templates.... This inoculation thing they are talking about.... is that enough? probably not.... since it will be timed and some poisins will still stick. How about a healable mind pool? That is honestly all that is required. No other changes, no inoculations, no rebreathers, just a healable mind pool.

a 75% pvp reduction for CM is a class breaker. It will remove the combat from combat medic. They might as well be called ranged medic. Getting a poison to tick at a 75% reduction is truly just a nuisance (apart from the most extreme poisons). Those that do not believe that have to get indroduced to a well made stim A. Of course this requires a healable mind pool.

As for targetting CMs first, well no doubt you target the CMs first. Who gets targeted next? Docs. Next? Either whoever is weakest or causing the most issues. Once all support for a team is removed then that team is no more. You target the CM because of his lasting effects and because he will be dead in a very few hits. All of which are treatable but the longer you take to treat them, the weaker you become. Targets aren't all about DPS, ever kill a doc? His dps is in the negatives it's so bad but you still take him out. and yes I would target a master smuggler because I know he will go die a quick death...(maybe the Master Ranger first though)...not that he worries me but it's just one less target to worry about later.

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cydonia wrote:

I hear alot of people saying "cm has no defense we die very fast" but....

1. do they not have 90% comp and imp PSGs and synthsteak on your server? Its hard to kill anyone with this.

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lol no it isn't, use poisons on them.

sorry had to feed the trolls, I couldn't resist.

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Mmaxx wrote:

lol I've never seen so much effort put into an argument that I don't think anyone would disagree with.... A MCM is much more dangerous then a Master Smugler in large scale PVP.A Master Smugler in a large PVP battle is a bit more dangerous then a Master Ranger. Why didn't you use a Master Droid Engineer in your example? We out-damage the polititians too... and have more defences with our ranged defence of 6 and melee defence of 2.

This discussion is about DPS.No fighting class has worse DPS then a smuggler. If you have to go that low down the fighting tree to prove your point, aren't youin effectdisproving your point?

So what are you proposing anyway? You beleive that CMs can do too much damage so nerf them into uselessness or give some way of coutering them? Having a doc around aparently isn't a good enough counter since there is no room for doc in the uber templates.... This inoculation thing they are talking about.... is that enough? probably not.... since it will be timed and some poisins will still stick. How about a healable mind pool? That is honestly all that is required. No other changes, no inoculations, no rebreathers, just a healable mind pool.

a 75% pvp reduction for CM is a class breaker. It will remove the combat from combat medic. They might as well be called ranged medic. Getting a poison to tick at a 75% reduction is truly just a nuisance (apart from the most extreme poisons). Those that do not believe that have to get indroduced to a well made stim A. Of course this requires a healable mind pool.

As for targetting CMs first, well no doubt you target the CMs first. Who gets targeted next? Docs. Next? Either whoever is weakest or causing the most issues. Once all support for a team is removed then that team is no more. You target the CM because of his lasting effects and because he will be dead in a very few hits. All of which are treatable but the longer you take to treat them, the weaker you become. Targets aren't all about DPS, ever kill a doc? His dps is in the negatives it's so bad but you still take him out. and yes I would target a master smuggler because I know he will go die a quick death...(maybe the Master Ranger first though)...not that he worries me but it's just one less target to worry about later.

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There is no cloud of haze in why i decide to kill CM's first.They are nuclear weapons. They are not support members to me.When I take out a CM THEN I begin to fight. If I don't kill a CM... that would equate to my guaranteed death even with copious doctor support. In the time it take to actually kill the CM andrun to my doctor to get cured I have already ticked one to three times. With 800 tick that is nearly half of my mind gone... and I haven't EVEN begun to address the REAL combat members of the enemy team yet. CM = half of my buffed and brandied mind gone before I can even begin to fight. Perhaps you know why I target them first huh. That damage is disproportionate to what a support class can do. Not only do I deal with the actual mind damage, but I have to deal with a LARGE interruption in my combat to counter it. CM's not only damage mind, but damage a combat team's offensive organization and fire potential. No other class can do this. It is incredibly devistating, as CM's you wholeheartedly KNOW this so how about we just accept that now

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Ternque01 wrote:

So don't kid me telling me that I target them because they are a "just" a support class. What a joke.

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If you are going to use quotes the make sure you are quoting me. I never said CMs are 'just' and support class. or a 'just' a ..... whatever that is suppose to mean.

I said in my post:

"You target the CM because of his lasting effects and because he will be dead in a very few hits. All of which are treatable but the longer you take to treat them, the weaker you become."

sorry re-reading that, I see it doesn't follow a good structure. What I meant to say was the effects of a CM long lasting and are treatable but..... he'll die without lessmuch effort then most others.

I also said:

"Once all support for a team is removed then that team is no more."

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Ocain wrote:
not like this is going to matter after tomorrow

cm is a dead prof, sry but its true

ive been saving up some 1000 oq resources for these resist packs!

along with 200 power janta blood!

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Since I know you are lying with your sorry, I'll assume you are lying about having all the 1000 OQ resources for these resist packs. Not that it really maters that much anyway since you aren't a crafter if all you care about is OQ.

Please troll another forums for a while instead of posting in this one with your irrelevant statements. If you are a Doc and can't deal with a CM then you have other issues in your PVP style to sort out.

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Mmaxx wrote:

lol I've never seen so much effort put into an argument that I don't think anyone would disagree with.... A MCM is much more dangerous then a Master Smugler in large scale PVP.A Master Smugler in a large PVP battle is a bit more dangerous then a Master Ranger. Why didn't you use a Master Droid Engineer in your example? We out-damage the polititians too... and have more defences with our ranged defence of 6 and melee defence of 2.

This discussion is about DPS.No fighting class has worse DPS then a smuggler. If you have to go that low down the fighting tree to prove your point, aren't youin effectdisproving your point?

So what are you proposing anyway? You beleive that CMs can do too much damage so nerf them into uselessness or give some way of coutering them? Having a doc around aparently isn't a good enough counter since there is no room for doc in the uber templates.... This inoculation thing they are talking about.... is that enough? probably not.... since it will be timed and some poisins will still stick. How about a healable mind pool? That is honestly all that is required. No other changes, no inoculations, no rebreathers, just a healable mind pool.

a 75% pvp reduction for CM is a class breaker. It will remove the combat from combat medic. They might as well be called ranged medic. Getting a poison to tick at a 75% reduction is truly just a nuisance (apart from the most extreme poisons). Those that do not believe that have to get indroduced to a well made stim A. Of course this requires a healable mind pool.

As for targetting CMs first, well no doubt you target the CMs first. Who gets targeted next? Docs. Next? Either whoever is weakest or causing the most issues. Once all support for a team is removed then that team is no more. You target the CM because of his lasting effects and because he will be dead in a very few hits. All of which are treatable but the longer you take to treat them, the weaker you become. Targets aren't all about DPS, ever kill a doc? His dps is in the negatives it's so bad but you still take him out. and yes I would target a master smuggler because I know he will go die a quick death...(maybe the Master Ranger first though)...not that he worries me but it's just one less target to worry about later.

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Mmaxx wrote:

You can create a situation where a CM has a greater DPS then a MR.

You can also create a situation where a MR has a greater DPS thenCM..

Your example shows one attack against individuals with no resistance to that attack vs an attack on a group with high reistances to that attack.

If your group of 100 people standing on top of each other are new players with no combat abilities..... all newbies entertainers. with no buffs and no mind healing abilities. Are you sure the MCM would have a greater dps then the MR? This example is not something we would ever see in the game but it would be a good measure of dps.

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neutrineaux wrote:

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Ternque01 wrote:

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neutrineaux wrote:

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cydonia wrote:

I hear alot of people saying "cm has no defense we die very fast" but....

1. do they not have 90% comp and imp PSGs and synthsteak on your server? Its hard to kill anyone with this.

2. in a battle with lots of people (unless you know the persons template is)it is hard to know who is a cm and who is not there is too much confusion. the "quick get the cm" argument isnt always possible. (i will say in the groups that I pvp with we do know who is a cm and who is not)

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sure, we can get good armor, but we get no ranged or melee mitigation, and low ranged and melee defense, so we get it harder than any combat prof. you can get some ranged mitigation if you do pistol/carbine/rifle.

and you can tell who the cm is in your combat spam when it tells you who hit you with poison. with voice chat, that info goes out quickly. some of the better cm's (not me, i am pretty lame) are know to many in the pvp arena, so they get targeted right off.

that is when everyone focuses fire on the cm, and he usually goes down pretty fast at that point.

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Smugglers don't get jack for inborne defenses - no ranged mitigation, no melee mit, and no ranged/melee defense. Half of their profession is gained by combat experience. I'm sure that by using the DPS figures that have been developed by members of the CM community would show them nearly right in line with what a Master Smuggler can do without anyother professions to support. I don't hear them cry that they have weak defenses or that they are the boon of always being targeted first.

i did not know they (smugglers) were targeted first, but i have certainly heard them complain about their level of defenses, and rightly so, if what you say is accurate.

Let's take a look.... Oh, btw, the post I get info from is a CM making a post in the CM forum. The post recieved 4 stars and copious backing by the CM community. Let's look. CM-developed Poison DPS thread

I'll compare a Master Smuggler with a very nice FWG5 (1.8 speed, 63-300 damage) to a Combat Medic using the facts and figures developed by your own community.

Let's do some very quick math to determine the damage against a helpless meatsack of a CM test subject. This CM has 80% base armor and 44% synthsteaks and the CM's ranged defense will assumed to be zero. This smuggler is spamming the highest damaging pistol special in the game Last Ditch, which is a smuggler skill.

x+y times z to the 11th power... naught from naught, carry naught... *takes shoes off to use toes

Using this highly rated damage calculator from hereyou can see that before the PvP reduction and armor/food reductions a smuggler will do 302.5 DPS. Let's do a little more math to see what the damage is after these reductions.

75% PvP reduction: 302.5 X .25 = 75.6 DPS

Armor piercing 0 gun against light armor: 75.6 DPS X .75 = 56.7 DPS

80% energy protection: 56.7 X .2 = 11.3 DPS

44% damage reducing synthsteaks: 11.3 X .56 = 6.3 DPS

there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. if you want you can prove virutally any point with figures, right or wrong. but this has nothing to do with the intent of my post! the point of my post responding to the question of whether we could not wear armor and what not, and why we die so fast, was to point out that compared to most elite combat classes, we have little in the way of defense modifiers. which is true. ok, smugglers don't have many either, according to your claims, which is also bogus. maybe cm's should get FD, too, lol. it does not seem to me that many people have master smuggler as a combat template choice these days, and that might explain it.

Against a NAKED CM a Master Smuggler will do 75.6 DPS on a random pool. If the CM had money, intelligence, or even care the MS would do 6.3 DPS. This is with a gun that would probably sell for 500k plus credits.

cool, naked pvp.

This site from your own forums which has been given copious praise and backing say that the DPS of its "BIG BOY" is...... *drum roll please*...... 66 DPS for a fully effectiveness experimented Poison C.

hint: mixing "NAKED" and "BIG BOY" could lead to unfortunate labels...

Okay... if your "naked" CM (no armor on or foods) comes into battle with a fully armored and fed Master Smuggler, the MS would do 75.6 DPS, while the CM would do only 66 DPS. But seeing how people wear armor in pvp, let's just say the MS only does 6.3 DPS.

How you guys complain about lower than normal DPS is far beyond me. Let me go further and show how rediculous the 66 DPS figure was arrived at.

d00d3, why are you responding to my post with this? i was hijacking the thread! i was off topic! my post was an off topic response to an off topic response! i never mentioned dps! i said we have poor ranged and melee defense modifiers is why we die fast! it is true! i am starting to think you hate me or love me or something worse...

Let's see what a master pistoleer/BH pistols/Dirty Fighting of Smuggler combatant would do in terms of DPS with Last Ditch using a 170-355 damage DX2. The damage caculator site gives me this:2362.5 DPS before armor and 75% pvp reduction.

75% Reduction: 2362.5 X .25 = 590.6 DPS

No armor piercing reduction

80% armor resists: 590.6 X .2 = 118.1 DPS

44% synthsteaks: 118.1 X .56 = 66.1 DPS

Whoa!!!! This DPS is right in line with the CM damage. If the "elite" pistoleer was using a stun geonosian blaster with similar stats they would be doing 590.6 X .56 = 330.7 DPS!!!!!!! Wow! 330.7 DPS is much much much greater than the claimed 66 DPS for a CM.

Yet in your post above neutrineaux, you say that CM's are always targeted first. What a complete waste of time!!!!! Why do so many combat teams on sooo many servers choose to take CM's out first when a pistoleer can outdamage them by a HUGE factor of 5? I'm confounded.

we are targeted to keep us from throwing area of effect poisons and giving mind heals, which is pretty much all we can do that a novice medic can't accomplish on himself... even naked. i don't really think anyone will argue too much with that. my post was regarding why we die fast... so much hooch, so little time?

This data either shows that all of these combat teams are either extremely misguided in their tactics and might even be the victims of high-lead in their water supply as children OR the DPS calculated by your own in-house CM's is highly incorrect.

did your house have lead paint?

From personal experience I think it's the second option. CM damage is so high that they are by necessity targeted first. They are also rarely deathblown.... so as to keep them out of combat longer.

no arguement with some of the current poisons out there. but even before that, it is not such a bad idea to kill the healers first. pretty basic strategy. and if the game is currently all about mind damage, which most folks seem to agree on, then killing the only mind healers, who also happen to be great mind damagers, would be high on the menu, no? and i do find it ironic that the same self-righteous pvp d00d3z who trash talk others for incapp exploiting, do the same when it suits their purpose.

My parting question to you neutrineaux is "Do weak defenses justify extremely high damage in PvP?" Is it right to say that just because you are given nearly no defenses at all, that it is OK to cut swaths through large enemy combat teams?

i never said that, bonehead. have a (couple more) cold ones, and take a deep breath, brother. i said that is why we die fast in combat. we get targeted early, and we have poor ranged and melee defenses. is that not true? i did not delv into the why you shoot me first or dps. you have some serious issues, axob.

If you think it is justification, take a look at the Master Smuggler. They get a grand total (including the mods they get from novice brawler/marksman) of +2 ranged and +2 melee defense with NOTHING ELSE for defenses, yet they can only do 6.3 DPS in PvP.

They have lower defenses than a MCM, and waaaayyyy lower DPS. I'll just leave that food for thought with you.

no, i am getting other food from this... food for painful laughter

In conclusion, CM's do very high DPS in PvP despite whatis presented on your board and the weak defenses you guys recieve is no justification to keep these high DPS poison attacks at the current strength level they are at.

we have good dps until the changes hit, no arguement there. in certain cases, poisons deal out too much damage, in my own opinion. i have said this elsewhere. but i believe that is primarily a function of certain loot drops, rather than intrinsic to the profession as a whole. thus the currently proposed/planned fixes do not address the actual problem, and go way to far in the other direction (see definition of "nerf to uselessness," listed elsewhere). in pvp, today at least, cm's deal great damage. today, we also have very poor defenses compared to most combat professions. in pve, our damage output is not up to par.

still perplexes me where you got all your steam for this. i got tired just reading all that. i would get a cramp writing it! lol

A mathematical representation of a CM's DPS is seen all through this thread and was not developed here, but player habits of targeting CM's first coupled with comparison with a weak and strong form of pistoleer show that the 66 DPS figure derived by CM's is faulty.

Furthermore, check out my posts in that CM developed DPS thread where I debunk it.

thanks, but i will pass. your drabble has grown tiresome.

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Message Edited by neutrineaux on 08-04-2004 09:35 PM

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If you don't have any real counter arguments to why low defenses don't support having large DPS, please keep the comments to yourself.

One point that I DO see being made is that your defenses are low for a combat profession. CM is a combat hybrid profession, not a combat profession. Your defenses are actually higher than a smuggler's. Smuggler is a combat hybrid profession just like CM. Take BH's, they just get ranged mitigation... no ranged or melee D.

For a medical based combat profession to have more defenses than a smuggler is IMO rediculous. Bounty Hunters have nearly as low. Combat hybrid professions... I'm seeing a pattern here. Perhaps you see why I didn't choose Droid Engineer. They aren't a combat hybrid.

A CM is for all purposes supposed to do as much damage as a combat hybrid profession. CM's also have vast team-support options. A balanced idea is if poisons were just a nuisance instead of an apocalypse, and CM's went from tossing "nuisance" poisons to supporting the team by healing. When it comes down to it, and player in a large fight is just a small nuisance. I fire my pistol for 100 damage to some guy's head every second. He has 3000 mind with quick regeneration. He is one player in a field of 100 other enemies. I am a nuisance, but I'm superbly trained in using my weapon. I use the skills in two pure combat professions and one hybrid profession to get the job done.

Poisons come from only one person and should be a nuisance also. What we had with CM in PvP was way way more of a nuisance. Not only did they do HUGE DPS by hitting multiple players simultaneously, but they were very hard to get rid of. That is too much power in the hands of one person with training in a combat profession that is merely a hybrid class. Combatants fight the wars and in large groups make up something formidable. The formidable offense shouldn't come from two or three players with a combat hybrid class. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Aside from resist-buffs seeming a little too strong, the devs have hit the nail on the head with the doctor changes.

Not everyone will have the resist-buffs, not everyone will have a doctor. CM will be the nuisance to those groups.

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Numen wrote:

The normal situtation in todays PvP is everyone in Composite(maybe not 90% but no less than 80% energy I would guess.)

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vortexala wrote:
Here's a counter argument... Poison does not incap nor does it kill at range. Can the same be said for Riflemen abilities?

A pure rifleman, in your 100 person scenario, would take out every single person eventually. The pure CM wouldn't take a single one down, ever.

DPS means nothing if an incap/kill isn't even allowed.

And before you bring up the 'poison + disease = incap' issue, that's not something that has ever been documented as 'working as intended' or as a 'bug'. Clarification is still being sought on that front.

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Ok for a correspondent you are not too bright. Throw a disease and everyone incaps. A CM can throw a poison and a disease take a shuttle to endor log off log on a crafter alt and the person they poisoned and diseasedtriple incaps a planet away. Can a rifleman do that?

If I evade a CM, I am just going to guarantee myself a decay since no matter how far away he is IfI do not have 3000 doc I am dead.

It does not matter if poison + disease incap is a bug. It works like that now and denying that ability is pointless.

Here is also a part you are forgetting CM is not 250 points. You can take another profession and lord forbid that be a master rifleman where you poison 100 people then strafe their 1 point mind for teh win.

Also there are plenty of defensive CM templates out there Master fencer 4004 cm 3000 doc is just one. That can poison everyone and live to do it again.