Combat Medic Archive
Thread: The DPS Argument: Debunked.
75% pvp reduction would be too much of a nerf for this class. it would make the insane and fairly rare 1000+ ticks go down to 250 which is at best annoying and average poisons would be like childsplay voritor poisons. The new point blank AOE cures and innoculations should do the trick. Funny how long this thread went on after I left.
If you read the argument I am debunking carefully, you would have seen I was referring to mind dps. Therefore, no rifleman has no AOE mind attack. Looted weapons are part of every combat class and should not be taken into consideration when comparing class features.
ok, since when is venom not a looted weapon. and let's face, venom is the real problem here. it is over powered. it should be exceedingly rare, if even allowed to remain at all. if it were gone, the damage cm's deal out would be inline with other professions, probably a bit on the weak side.
but NOOOO! let's crush the whole profession! yeah! we did not like CH, BH, Commando, etc., etc., and we don't like CM either!
lame-o-meter = off scale positive
Nanuu wrote:
EVERYONE REALLY NEEDS TO READ THE MESSAGE SUBJECT BEFORE MAKING POINTLESS COUNTER ARGUMENTS.
neutrineaux wrote:
Morath360 wrote:
Vort,
Yes, but his point is that DPS is relative and the current DPS calcs are flawed. Which they are. I fail to see how the fact that a poison does not incap is relevant. This is a DPS thread, not a who can incap who under what circumstances thread.
Brain,
As much as you would like to think that this profession needs to be left alone and that only the Mind bar is the problem,its not. The insane amount of damage would have similiar results on other bars. I know because I have done it. The mind is just the most efficient at the moment. You seem to think that a novice medic can keep up with the poisons without any problem. I have heard the argument on healing stims. Its simply not true. Especially if you add any kind of stacking.
Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-16-2004 06:45 AM
the problem is venom. without that, poisons are not overly powerful. and stacking in actual combat vs. knowlegable opponents is hard to accomplish. they shoot combat medics first. if you can accomplish it, you probably would have won without it.
I have to disagree with you here. The problem in not just venom. An 800 to 1000 tick is not what I am talking about here. Im talking about 500 ticks that effectively never stop. Like it has been brought out many times, the effective DPS that a CM can do over time even with low level poisons is much higher than any combat profession.
Duration, power, accuracy, and line of sight are big factors. I find it very interesting that the proposed changes effectively limit duration and accuracy. The range issue somewhat addressed line of sight. Whats that leave? You guessed it, power. Of course, if they go overboard on accuracy and duration, then power is effectively nerfed as well.
Message Edited by Morath360 on 08-02-2004 01:04 PM
insightful assessment. right on target.
jkray8472 wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Listen, that is how things are now. Bug or not this is how the CM profession works. There is no blindness, contradiction, or confusion. That is how things are.
While texxie might champion to the devs to clarify this issue, it will be in now way a reason to allow you to hush me on this issue. I will just as validly argue that because you don't know if this is a bug then you could just as easily assume the other facet - just as you assumed the opposite. Because we don't know I now assume that is as is it's intended. Have I confused you?
Nope. But just as the 96m toss was a bug, we got dozens of dozens of people in here complaining about it. All we can tell them is: it's a bug. It's been reported. You can whine and cry and moan and B1tch all you want...but there's nothing we can do about it. No need to nerf a profession due to a bug. This guy was trying to discount what Texxie had said...and I was trying to point out how until we find the official stance, there's no point in crying about it.
Bug or intended.... we are in a discussion about how things work now. If you want to bring up a point that it's a feature of CM that is undecided, by all means do it in another thread. This thread is about DPS - it doesn't even have anything to do with incapacitation by diseases. Don't ignore the argument that is going on in this thread, and don't contradict yourself by bringing up a point on an issue that has nothing to do with what's being discussed.
This thread is a nice way to illustrate DPS on a specific pool in large populations of test subjects. Incapacitation has nothing to do with DPS. Why it was even brought up in this thread is a complete mystery.....
This thread is a nice way to illustrate DPS on a specific pool in large populations. In a large group, CMs h ave the highest Mind DPS possible. In a 1 vs 1 situation, CMs do not have the highest Mind DPS. All the people who are opposed to the 75% reduction are trying to point out is that the nerf-cryers are only looking at the high DPS scenarios, and ignoring the low DPS. Doc/Rifleman vs CM = death to the CM. Single Brawler who can still burst-run against a CM = death to the CM, and some downtime for the brawler, unless he's a TKA.
CMs are the anathema of large groups of people (i.e. zergers), and against defense stackers. And perhaps Jedi as well, since Jedi poison/disease healing seems to have been reduced. Small wonder that we get many of those same people in here, begging for CMs to be nerfed out of existence so they can be the undisputed lords of their particular server.
Nanuu wrote:
I've been reading about the arguments in defense of and against CM's. I just want to concentrate on one of the defense arguments:
"Rifleman (or other mind hitting classes) have a higher mind DPS than us, so why are people complaining about us"
This is the problem with the argument:
-You are arguing from a 1 to 1 perspective. Indeed a masterriflemancan out damage a MCMin a one on one fight. Well, the problem with the argument lies in that a MCM will poison EVERYONE within their area of effect while a Master rifleman can only focus on one person at a time.
-A master rifleman can only attack their ONE target when they are in range and visible. MCM's only need to apply the poison once and move on....the damage continues on the player no matter what. (Do not try to argue this with a mind bleed...they are useless and uncomparable).
-A MCM can stack these poisons thus multiplying their DPS. I heard that up to 6 poisons/diseases can be stacked? Correct me if Im wrong.
-Poisons and diseases ignore all armor and defenses unlike other mind hitting classes.
With all these counter-arguments in place, lets create a scenario.
You have 100 mind buffed players all standing in a grid, not moving. Who do you think will take out the 100 players quicker? The MRM or MCM? Take the same scenario, and make the players defense stackers with uber helmets....
DPS argument debunked. MCM out damages any mind hitting class.
only thing is the developers mentioned dps is saying that the MCM poison was fine. They said this to my face.......then again, they also said that there was no more uber venom left in the game too
Anti-Thug wrote:
Nanuu wrote:
I've been reading about the arguments in defense of and against CM's. I just want to concentrate on one of the defense arguments:
"Rifleman (or other mind hitting classes) have a higher mind DPS than us, so why are people complaining about us"
This is the problem with the argument:
-You are arguing from a 1 to 1 perspective. Indeed a masterriflemancan out damage a MCMin a one on one fight. Well, the problem with the argument lies in that a MCM will poison EVERYONE within their area of effect while a Master rifleman can only focus on one person at a time.
-A master rifleman can only attack their ONE target when they are in range and visible. MCM's only need to apply the poison once and move on....the damage continues on the player no matter what. (Do not try to argue this with a mind bleed...they are useless and uncomparable).
-A MCM can stack these poisons thus multiplying their DPS. I heard that up to 6 poisons/diseases can be stacked? Correct me if Im wrong.
-Poisons and diseases ignore all armor and defenses unlike other mind hitting classes.
With all these counter-arguments in place, lets create a scenario.
You have 100 mind buffed players all standing in a grid, not moving. Who do you think will take out the 100 players quicker? The MRM or MCM? Take the same scenario, and make the players defense stackers with uber helmets....
DPS argument debunked. MCM out damages any mind hitting class.
only thing is the developers mentioned dps is saying that the MCM poison was fine. They said this to my face.......then again, they also said that there was no more uber venom left in the game too
Message Edited by cydonia on 08-02-2004 05:04 PM
cydonia wrote:
I hear alot of people saying "cm has no defense we die very fast" but....
1. do they not have 90% comp and imp PSGs and synthsteak on your server? Its hard to kill anyone with this.
2. in a battle with lots of people (unless you know the persons template is)it is hard to know who is a cm and who is not there is too much confusion. the "quick get the cm" argument isnt always possible. (i will say in the groups that I pvp with we do know who is a cm and who is not)
sure, we can get good armor, but we get no ranged or melee mitigation, and low ranged and melee defense, so we get it harder than any combat prof. you can get some ranged mitigation if you do pistol/carbine/rifle.
and you can tell who the cm is in your combat spam when it tells you who hit you with poison. 
with voice chat, that info goes out quickly. some of the better cm's (not me, i am pretty lame) are know to many in the pvp arena, so they get targeted right off.
that is when everyone focuses fire on the cm, and he usually goes down pretty fast at that point.
Mmaxx wrote:
Your debunking of the dps argument between CMs and Rifleman involves one profs aeo VS the other profs single. In order to better illustrate it you maximise the possible aoe effectat the same timeminimizing the single's effeciency (multiple targets for aeo effect vs single attack). To make it even more dramatic you remove all potential for minimizing the effects of the aoe then increase the resistances to the others (allow head armor for rifleman and no doc for these 100 goofs).
You working towards a life in politics perhaps? definately not heading for a life of science. you are manipulating scenarioes to prove your point. You are not demonstrating equal tests to prove your point.
To properly measure dps have one master targetone individual with maximum resistances possible then again a separate target with no resistances possible. Repeat with the other master. check the dps of all targets
to measure aoe dps have one master target a group with maximum resistances and then target another group with no resistances. Repeat this test with the other master. Measure the dps of each target group's aeo damage.
In the examples above maximum protection against a MCM is a MDoc so no damage is done to the targets with the maximum protection. Maximum protection against a MRifleman would be moving defence stacker(s) fully buffed with the best possible armor and PSG. Some damage will get through on these test groups.
Minimum protection against a MCM is an unbuffed individual with no special clothing or attachments. This is also the minimum protected individual for the rifleman except the riflemans target would have to be standing stationary. Both masters will inflict serious damage to these tests groups.... but I beleive the MRifleman will incap these unprotected test subjects before the MCM takes them to +1.
Jo'ran
neutrineaux wrote:
cydonia wrote:
I hear alot of people saying "cm has no defense we die very fast" but....
1. do they not have 90% comp and imp PSGs and synthsteak on your server? Its hard to kill anyone with this.
2. in a battle with lots of people (unless you know the persons template is)it is hard to know who is a cm and who is not there is too much confusion. the "quick get the cm" argument isnt always possible. (i will say in the groups that I pvp with we do know who is a cm and who is not)
sure, we can get good armor, but we get no ranged or melee mitigation, and low ranged and melee defense, so we get it harder than any combat prof. you can get some ranged mitigation if you do pistol/carbine/rifle.
and you can tell who the cm is in your combat spam when it tells you who hit you with poison.
that is when everyone focuses fire on the cm, and he usually goes down pretty fast at that point.
Smugglers don't get jack for inborne defenses - no ranged mitigation, no melee mit, and no ranged/melee defense. Half of their profession is gained by combat experience. I'm sure that by using the DPS figures that have been developed by members of the CM community would show them nearly right in line with what a Master Smuggler can do without anyother professions to support. I don't hear them cry that they have weak defenses or that they are the boon of always being targeted first. Let's take a look.... Oh, btw, the post I get info from is a CM making a post in the CM forum. The post recieved 4 stars and copious backing by the CM community. Let's look. CM-developed Poison DPS thread
I'll compare a Master Smuggler with a very nice FWG5 (1.8 speed, 63-300 damage) to a Combat Medic using the facts and figures developed by your own community.
Let's do some very quick math to determine the damage against a helpless meatsack of a CM test subject. This CM has 80% base armor and 44% synthsteaks and the CM's ranged defense will assumed to be zero. This smuggler is spamming the highest damaging pistol special in the game Last Ditch, which is a smuggler skill.
Using this highly rated damage calculator from hereyou can see that before the PvP reduction and armor/food reductions a smuggler will do 302.5 DPS. Let's do a little more math to see what the damage is after these reductions.
75% PvP reduction: 302.5 X .25 = 75.6 DPS
Armor piercing 0 gun against light armor: 75.6 DPS X .75 = 56.7 DPS
80% energy protection: 56.7 X .2 = 11.3 DPS
44% damage reducing synthsteaks: 11.3 X .56 = 6.3 DPS
Against a NAKED CM a Master Smuggler will do 75.6 DPS on a random pool. If the CM had money, intelligence, or even care the MS would do 6.3 DPS. This is with a gun that would probably sell for 500k plus credits.
This site from your own forums which has been given copious praise and backing say that the DPS of its "BIG BOY" is...... *drum roll please*...... 66 DPS for a fully effectiveness experimented Poison C.
Okay... if your "naked" CM (no armor on or foods) comes into battle with a fully armored and fed Master Smuggler, the MS would do 75.6 DPS, while the CM would do only 66 DPS. But seeing how people wear armor in pvp, let's just say the MS only does 6.3 DPS.
How you guys complain about lower than normal DPS is far beyond me. Let me go further and show how rediculous the 66 DPS figure was arrived at.
Let's see what a master pistoleer/BH pistols/Dirty Fighting of Smuggler combatant would do in terms of DPS with Last Ditch using a 170-355 damage DX2. The damage caculator site gives me this:2362.5 DPS before armor and 75% pvp reduction.
75% Reduction: 2362.5 X .25 = 590.6 DPS
No armor piercing reduction
80% armor resists: 590.6 X .2 = 118.1 DPS
44% synthsteaks: 118.1 X .56 = 66.1 DPS
Whoa!!!! This DPS is right in line with the CM damage. If the "elite" pistoleer was using a stun geonosian blaster with similar stats they would be doing 590.6 X .56 = 330.7 DPS!!!!!!! Wow! 330.7 DPS is much much much greater than the claimed 66 DPS for a CM.
Yet in your post above neutrineaux, you say that CM's are always targeted first. What a complete waste of time!!!!! Why do so many combat teams on sooo many servers choose to take CM's out first when a pistoleer can outdamage them by a HUGE factor of 5? I'm confounded.
This data either shows that all of these combat teams are either extremely misguided in their tactics and might even be the victims of high-lead in their water supply as children OR the DPS calculated by your own in-house CM's is highly incorrect.
From personal experience I think it's the second option. CM damage is so high that they are by necessity targeted first. They are also rarely deathblown.... so as to keep them out of combat longer.
My parting question to you neutrineaux is "Do weak defenses justify extremely high damage in PvP?" Is it right to say that just because you are given nearly no defenses at all, that it is OK to cut swaths through large enemy combat teams?
If you think it is justification, take a look at the Master Smuggler. They get a grand total (including the mods they get from novice brawler/marksman) of +2 ranged and +2 melee defense with NOTHING ELSE for defenses, yet they can only do 6.3 DPS in PvP.
They have lower defenses than a MCM, and waaaayyyy lower DPS. I'll just leave that food for thought with you.
In conclusion, CM's do very high DPS in PvP despite whatis presented on your board and the weak defenses you guys recieve is no justification to keep these high DPS poison attacks at the current strength level they are at. A mathematical representation of a CM's DPS is seen all through this thread and was not developed here, but player habits of targeting CM's first coupled with comparison with a weak and strong form of pistoleer show that the 66 DPS figure derived by CM's is faulty.
Furthermore, check out my posts in that CM developed DPS thread where I debunk it.
neutrineaux wrote:
cydonia wrote:
I hear alot of people saying "cm has no defense we die very fast" but....
1. do they not have 90% comp and imp PSGs and synthsteak on your server? Its hard to kill anyone with this.
2. in a battle with lots of people (unless you know the persons template is)it is hard to know who is a cm and who is not there is too much confusion. the "quick get the cm" argument isnt always possible. (i will say in the groups that I pvp with we do know who is a cm and who is not)
sure, we can get good armor, but we get no ranged or melee mitigation, and low ranged and melee defense, so we get it harder than any combat prof. you can get some ranged mitigation if you do pistol/carbine/rifle.
and you can tell who the cm is in your combat spam when it tells you who hit you with poison.
that is when everyone focuses fire on the cm, and he usually goes down pretty fast at that point.
Actually I hear that the only one to get the "You have been poisoned by Pee Wee Herman" message is the one who actually get hit with an area poison. The other victims just get the "you have been poisoned" message
Not everyone uses voice chat programs (though I do) also. It can be very difficult to relay the name of the CM when most players don't even bother to read groupchat during combat... But you are right, if a team knows how to PvP, the CM name goes quick, but there are many many many groups that don't do this and I think the game mechanics need a better way to tell people who they have been poisoned by.
I would personaly like a glowing box with fire and brimstone around its boarders to tell me the name of the CM who poisoned me... that way I'd be hellbent on taking them out, muhahahahahahaaaaaaaaa.