Combat Medic Archive

The combat medic is by far the most powerfull pvp player in the pvp game. 200-800 mind poisen per tick(thats not even elite or legendarie stuff wich some people have), that even brings a3.5k mind person to his knees. You can poisen from what 65m+, have almost 100% accuracy. Ignores anytype of armor. Cm medic was never meant to be uber, but a saport class. I realy hope balance it out so a noob with 500 mind poisen cant just launch it on 3 elites and incap them all. They all tka/rifleman or fencer/rifleman. With 70-90% base, 30 stun, 80 electric composite. Everyone buffed to 3k and mind over 3.5k. And almost best wpns on server or atleast uber wpns in themselves. Ive been playing this game since launch and pvp for a rly long time and think cm is just totaly uber, i dont feel like dropping master commando/tka just for doctor and rifleman.We should make a cm guild and rule everyone on every server. I pvp everyday and the only thing that usulay can kill our group is one noob cm with no skills but to give us poisen from 65m+ away. I realy hope they balance everyclass out to what they should be not just make one class uber or uberfied. Foshizzle. Flame away, fyi i dont care.

You know, the problem I see with the main post is the failure to facture in the combatant fighting back. Sure a persons attributes are going to regen pretty quickly. The killer isn't with a solo cm. A solo cm is laughable unless they use the poisen/disease bug to incap you but such is the life of a SUPPORT class. You aren't meant to go it alone. That being said, what the killer is, is when cm's are accompanied. So not only do you have a poisen which can take you down to 1 hp in 5 ticks but you have a buddy causing damage to the poisened fellow as well as the fellow doing damage to himself by using specials. Maybe you see the power curve now? The damage you do is multiplied by the damage a combatant does to themself and the damage your partner or partners do to the combatant.

That is the true way to gauge the effect of a dot in combat. What you came up with is only base damage Rhen, not true effectiveness. A formula for finding your true effectiveness would be something along the lines of:

CM poisen damage = x, partner's damage to target= y, damage done to target by special use = z

x+y+z= true effectiveness

Now that's really basic and bogus, wouldn't work at all but the point is, there are more factors to a cm's effectiveness than just the base damage you do.

Frankly, I don't see what relevence the numbers have at all considering they're for a stationary target whom (from what I gather from the sitting portions) isn't fighting back. Come one now, how likely is that to happen? "I think I'll just sit here and let a cm poisen me the entire battle." Get real. Get some numbers that have relevence to actual combat.

If you want to be effective against CMs, then take up doctor. And before you start whining that you shouldn't have to take up doctor to fight a CM, you people readily take Fencer or TK or whatever to deal with other PvP professions... oh wait, taking Doctor would WEAKEN YOUR DEFENSES TO THE POINT THAT YOU COULD ACTUALLY BE HIT... interesting. So you have a dilema here... fight CMs with their antithesis, the Doctor, and have lower defenses vs other elite profs, or keep your uber defenses and be beaten time and time again because you think that a certain mix of professions should make you invulnerable to everyone...

COMBAT MEDICS ARE THE DEFENSE AGAINST PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO MIX CERTAIN SKILLS AND BE COMPLETELY INVINCIBLE. Fight without armor and buffs for ONE DAY AND TELL ME THAT YOU THINK COMBAT MEDIC IS OVERPOWERED. Believe me, you don't know what overpowered damage is until you get hit for 3k damage to the head, or 6k to the body. Combat Medic gets through the defenses that you people have become so accustomed to and you can't deal with it. Take up doctor if it matters that much, or SHUT UP. But the Combat Medic does NOT need to be nerfed.

One more time, and say it with me because you know it's true: DROP YOUR UBER DEFENSE PROFS AND TAKE UP DOCTOR IF YOU WANT TO DEFEND AGAINST POISONS AND DISEASES, OR STOP WHINING.

There. I feel better now

Oh yeah, and people, learn some tactics. If you are fighting a Combat Medic then don't stand together like morons... on a guild raid we had around 15 people defending our base... there were two CMs on the attacking side. My friend and I were the only two people that didn't get AoE poisoned because, despite what seems to be popular opinion, not all PvPers are complete idiots and stand there to be poisoned. As soon as one of the CMs entered the range of my group, I turned 90 degrees and hit /burstrun, circled around, and came up behind him. My friend came around the other way. We managed to incap and DB one of the CMs because they have NO defenses, and beat the other one badly, but the rest of their team DBed us before we could finish him off.

Combat Medic is NOT the end-all profession of the game. It is very easy to stop if you actually try to kill him instead of relying on your uber defenses to save you.

And if you're wondering why I do this, it's because I go through many PvP battles unarmored and unbuffed... and I've played the PvP servers on Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online for a little while too. See, when you fight people who use tactics and the battleground is even, you learn how to take on people that have an advantage over you. I won't win every time, but it's not a crushing blow to my ego when I don't. I consider what I did wrong, because I know it was MY fault that I lost, not the other guy who needs to be nerfed. I learn from my mistakes instead of doing the same thing OVER AND OVER again...

---

Raanan wrote:

You know, the problem I see with the main post is the failure to facture in the combatant fighting back. Sure a persons attributes are going to regen pretty quickly. The killer isn't with a solo cm. A solo cm is laughable unless they use the poisen/disease bug to incap you but such is the life of a SUPPORT class. You aren't meant to go it alone. That being said, what the killer is, is when cm's are accompanied. So not only do you have a poisen which can take you down to 1 hp in 5 ticks but you have a buddy causing damage to the poisened fellow as well as the fellow doing damage to himself by using specials. Maybe you see the power curve now? The damage you do is multiplied by the damage a combatant does to themself and the damage your partner or partners do to the combatant.

That is the true way to gauge the effect of a dot in combat. What you came up with is only base damage Rhen, not true effectiveness. A formula for finding your true effectiveness would be something along the lines of:

CM poisen damage = x, partner's damage to target= y, damage done to target by special use = z

x+y+z= true effectiveness

Now that's really basic and bogus, wouldn't work at all but the point is, there are more factors to a cm's effectiveness than just the base damage you do.

Frankly, I don't see what relevence the numbers have at all considering they're for a stationary target whom (from what I gather from the sitting portions) isn't fighting back. Come one now, how likely is that to happen? "I think I'll just sit here and let a cm poisen me the entire battle." Get real. Get some numbers that have relevence to actual combat.

---

Oh so now you are saying that a Combat Medic is overpowered because everyone else is overpowered too?

The point everyone has when they come here is not that TKMs, Commandos, or Riflemen do damage, it is because CMs do damage. How can you sit there now and say that CMs are too powerful because they can group with someone else that can do damage too? THat would also be to say that TKMs, Commandos, Riflemen, everyone that are complaining about slamming us with a 75% nerf should all be nerfed because THEY can all group together too. Basically what you are saying is that everyone should fight one on one to be fair, because a group can do too much damage.

That is the most hahalarious thing I think I have heard on the boards yet. I have heard people say that we need nerfing because we can effect too many people, I have heard them say that we are too powerful because we do too much damage, this is the first time I have heard anyone say we need nerfing because EVERYONE ELSE does too much damage.

The numbers are sound. The point is that if we get a 75% nerf, you can get out of range of combat, sit down and wait the poison out without any real detriment to you other than a few minutes out of your time. With a 75% nerf, if you continue to fight you will only experience a little more difficulty but certainly the least of your worries would be CM poison. The target did not have to be fighting anyone to come up with the results, a standing person regenerates as fast as someone running around shooting people, it is your choice to continue attacking and taking on my "buddies" while my poison is ticking on you.

Oh and another thing, you don't have to worry about two CMs attacking you with the same poison type. How would you like it if only one rifleman or commando could attack a target at a time?

go troll somewhere else.

Rhen, I didn't come here and personally attack you so be a **edit**ing grown up.

I never said CM was too powerful because everyone else is too powerful. Frankly, I think the power of each profession will be pretty well even once the new ham system is in place but that's another issue all together. The reason I say you have to gauge a cm's power by adding the damage of your group (on the extreme end) and the damage done by the target to themselves by their own special spam is because your damage is a DOT. Dot's are not primary damage causers. They are a multiplier to the damage being done straight. That is why every combat profession had their dots nerfed to all hell. Because dots aren't meant to be such a main force in combat. Now, if your poisens were changed to be instant damage attacks with no dot, you could accurately gauge a cm's effectiveness by just calculating the damage you do. As it is, your dots are too powerful for group combat ending what should be long ass battles in mere minutes. Keep in mind that's for pvp only. I'm fully aware how "usefull" a cm is in pve.

Too bad the numbers you're using is for crap poisons. Sorry bud, I still don't buy it.

Message Edited by Pilai on 04-03-2004 04:04 PM

---

Pilai wrote:

Too bad the numbers you're using is for crap poisons. Sorry bud, I still don't buy it.

Edit: To be fair I think the effectiveness rating on ALL poisons and diseases should be doubled, THEN you should apply the 75% reduction. This would make you guys better in PvE and a bit more balanced in PvP.

Message Edited by Pilai on 04-03-2004 04:04 PM

---

That was the idea behind the experiment. The posions were made poorly on purpose to show what would happen if the 75% reduction were to take place.

---

RhenGordon wrote:

I have been hearing a lot about how Combat Medics need 75% reduction. Well I wanted to try and find out what it would be like to be limited to a 75% reduction penalty in combat. So I ran an expirement with the help of my wife's Novice Pistoleer character, (she doesn't play much).

I chose to use health instead of mind because I wanted to see what the qualities of a fully buffed person would be on regeneration. Since I had no way to buff up the mind of my wife's character to a level that most PvPers would be buffed to, I decided to use health poisons instead. I intend to do the same test on mind poisons soon just to put the issue at rest.

Below are the poisons that I created. The most powerful (effective) poison I could make with the current resources I have was 266, this poison ticks for around 532 points of damage. I decided to figure the proper 75% reduction I subtracted 75% of 532 from 532 and got 133. Since we all know a master medic can double the effectiveness of his poisons I figured that I would need a poison with about a 66 or 67 effectiveness. As you will see below I never really was able to get that low, 74 was as close as I could get.

1. A Health Poison; 76 Potency, 74 effectiveness, 118 duration (expiremented Potency)


2. B Health Poison, 101 potency, 83 effectiveness, 124 duration (expiremented Potency)


3. C Health Poison 127 Potency, 100 effectiveness, 115 duration (expiremented Potency)


4. C Health Poison 94 Potency, 266 effectiveness, 208 duration (fully expiremented in effectiveness)

So then being a master doctor as well, I took some of my buff packs, not the best I could find just some average ones and buffed all the stats I could buff. I also had my wife drink some brandy and take a muon gold. After all the buffing was complete, here were the stats on the control subject.

1. Health 2077


2. Strength 1464 with 299 encumbrance


3. Constitution 1259 with 299 encumbrance


4. Action 2001


5. Quickness 1628 with 322 encumbrance


6. Stamina 1036 with 322 encumbrance


7. Mind 1736


8. Focus 994 with 434 encumbrance


9. Willpower 1302 with 434 encumbrance

Let the poisoning begin!!!

You have to love a game where you can poison your wife and not have to worry about getting jailed. So I started out slow with the A poison. I decided I would do it two different ways, one time sitting and one time standing just to see what regeneration would be like on each of those.

Here are the stats on the A poison

Sitting:

• The poison ticked 12 times for 150 - 154 points of damage


• The lowest the health on the subject reached was 1807


• 2077 - 1807 = a net damage on this poison of 270 points over96 seconds.


• NET damage per second is2.8 points per second.


• Total damage done was 1800 points over 96 seconds


• Total Damage per second was 18.76 points.

Standing

• The poison ticked 12 times for 150 - 154 points of damage


• The lowest the health on the subject reached was 1150


• 2077 - 1150 = a net damage on this poison of 927 points over 96 seconds


• NET damage per second was 9.6 points per second


• Total damage done was 1800 points over 96 seconds


• Total damage per second was 18.76 points

That is as close to 75% reduction in damage as I can get. Those are way less than stellar stats. Lets go ahead and look at the other poisons too though

Health B Poison

Sitting

• The poison ticked 13 times for 166 per tick


• The lowest the health on the subject reached was 1650


• 2077- 1650 = a net damage on this poison of 427 over 104 seconds


• NET damage per second was 4.1 points per second


• Total Damage done was 2158 over 104 seconds


• Total damage per second was 20.75

Standing

• The poison ticked 13 times for 166 per tick


• the lowest the health bar reached was 835


• 2077 - 835 = a net damage on this poison of 1242 over 104 seconds


• NET damage per second was 11.9


• Total Damage done was 2158 over 104 seconds


• Total damage per second was 20.75

Health C poison, low expirementation

Sitting

• The poison ticked 12 times for 200 per tick


• the lowest the health bar reached was 1230


• 2077 - 1230 = a net damage on this poison of 847 over 96 seconds


• NET damage per second was 8.8 points of damage


• Total Damagedone was 2400 points over96 seconds


• Total damage per second was 25 points

Standing

• The poison ticked 12 times for 200 per tick


• the lowest the health bar got was 534


• 2077 - 534 = a net damage of 1543 over 96 seconds


• NET damage per second was 16 points


• Total Damage done was 2400 points over 96 seconds


• Total damage per second was 25 points

NOW FOR THE BIG BOY

Sitting

• The poison ticked 21 times for 532 points of damage


• The lowest the health bar got was 1. It took7 ticks before the bar reached a 1


• 2077 - 1 = a net damage of 2076 over 168 seconds


• NET damage per second was 12.3 points per second


• Total Damage that could have been done was 11172 *


• Total damage per second was 66 points *

Standing

• The poison ticked 21 times for 532 points of damage


• The lowest the health bar got was 1. It took 5 ticks before it reached 1


• 2077 - 1 = a net damage of 2076 over 168 seconds


• NET damage per second was 12.3 points per second


• Total Damage that could have been done was 11172 *


• Total damage per second was 66 points *

So what do these number all mean.

Well if we introduce the 75% reduction in poisons like many of the nerfers want to do, we see that even a person fully buffed and standing, would not have any trouble living through the poison. Of course if the duration was longer it would be more problematic, but since this character was healing back 136 points for every tick of 150 points, and considering the poison I used would be more powerful than the 75% reduced poison, we can extrapolate pretty well that poisons would have little if any effect on a player.

Now when we consider the best poison I can make. The most damage that poison seems like a lot, but when you consider that the poison takes almost 3 minutes to do that kind of damage we see that our actual damage output is still much less than almost any combat character can do.When you also consider thatnearly 9000 points of that damage is lost because we cannot incapacitate youwill find that the actual damage per second of our poison is much less than the 66 that is being reflected.I noticed that my wife with her pistol was able to hit me for 75 - 120 points of damage every second. Keeping that in mind, even with misses and dodges a master pistoleer should easily outdamage any combat medic.

We can also see by these numbers that it takes at least40 seconds for my poison to bring a character to a single point. This is much longer than the reported 4 seconds that I have heard some nerfers cry.

Now I know some of you are going to squawk and say that I fudged the numbers. Well you don't have to believe me, go out and run the test yourself, or come on Ahazi and I will run the test on you personally.

My conclusions are that Combat medic is just about right in terms of damage output. We are already suffering from a 75% damage reduction as many of us say. You can feel free to disagree, but there are the numbers right in front of you.

I know this is long, if you made it this far, then I owe you a soda!

---

you ignore a few simple facts:

first off you claim that the damage is "regenerated" over time....u state that out of 150 damage about 136 gets regenerated before the next tick........

HOWEVER, if you are running aorund in combat fighting, you will not regenerate liek this. As you use a special or two or get hit by somehting else your HAM will not regenerate in the manner your trying to say. If im getting ticked for 150 damage in combat, then my mind is going down 150 points every X seconds, and it wont be regenerating....trust me

furthermore your study also does nto compare attacks from other combat classes....her eis a recent example of a figth I had....in fact theres been a few like this lately:

Was on talus at the imp outpost killing ATST's with my power hammer....would tnak it for a few then run away out of LoS and keep running till i was heale dup enough to turn around and continue fighting.....usually took me abotu 15 minutes to kill one.

Imp player sees what im doing and goes overt and charges me......i used BOTH power hammer and scythe on this person (who was fully buffed and armored..and probably took some food). I did not hit this person for more than 50 damage per swing with my hammer, which delays about 4 seconds with a special. With mys cyteh i was rounding 22-30 damage and swinign every 1.5-2 seconds or so.

So i could have roughly gotten about 150 damage with both weapons in 8 seconds or so of swinging, with good hits.

Your guys poisons go RIGHT THROUGH armor, right past mitigation right past the 75% PvP reduction. If you stacked your poisons and got 300-500 damage a tick you would be OUTDAMAGING sum1 liek myself SIGNIFICANTLY in PvP. Im doing roughly 150 damage (and if i got REAL lucky i MIGHT get up to 300 if i got an armor hole) for every tiem your poison would tick...yet your poison has unadulterated damage.

so you see...regardless of how weak you think poisons are, the truth of the matter is that with all the PvP reductions other weapons get, and the complete nerf on our DoTs, that poisons outdamage us. and dont even get started on the ability to AREA poison people like this.

Allow me to rebute you PanzerGR.

---

PanzerGR wrote:

you ignore a few simple facts:

I ignored no facts, not even simple ones, the numbers are there maybe I just need to explain them better.

first off you claim that the damage is "regenerated" over time....u state that out of 150 damage about 136 gets regenerated before the next tick........

HOWEVER, if you are running aorund in combat fighting, you will not regenerate liek this. As you use a special or two or get hit by somehting else your HAM will not regenerate in the manner your trying to say. If im getting ticked for 150 damage in combat, then my mind is going down 150 points every X seconds, and it wont be regenerating....trust me

You will not regenerate 136 points every tick, you will actally regenerate 54 points per tick back if you are running and fighting. Not as much as 136, but the regen effect is still there. A player will automaticallyget back 650 points of damage, more if better buffed.

furthermore your study also does nto compare attacks from other combat classes....her eis a recent example of a figth I had....in fact theres been a few like this lately:

Was on talus at the imp outpost killing ATST's with my power hammer....would tnak it for a few then run away out of LoS and keep running till i was heale dup enough to turn around and continue fighting.....usually took me abotu 15 minutes to kill one.

Imp player sees what im doing and goes overt and charges me......i used BOTH power hammer and scythe on this person (who was fully buffed and armored..and probably took some food). I did not hit this person for more than 50 damage per swing with my hammer, which delays about 4 seconds with a special. With mys cyteh i was rounding 22-30 damage and swinign every 1.5-2 seconds or so.

So i could have roughly gotten about 150 damage with both weapons in 8 seconds or so of swinging, with good hits.

Your guys poisons go RIGHT THROUGH armor, right past mitigation right past the 75% PvP reduction. If you stacked your poisons and got 300-500 damage a tick you would be OUTDAMAGING sum1 liek myself SIGNIFICANTLY in PvP. Im doing roughly 150 damage (and if i got REAL lucky i MIGHT get up to 300 if i got an armor hole) for every tiem your poison would tick...yet your poison has unadulterated damage.

If you have a problem with the damage you are doing, you should petition the devs to do something about your class. Coming here and complaining about us is not going to help your position at all.

You missed the point of the expirement though. If you want a 75% reduction to CM damage, then we would not do as much damage as you are claiming youare doing. We would be ineffective at anything in the game. We do not heal as well as doctors, we do not have enough power to defeat anything except some Kaadu's in PvE, and with 75% reduction we would be largely ineffectual in PvP. That is the point, we already have 75% reduction AND we CAN and DO get resisted. You might not see it because you no not get the resist message like we do. Let me say that again, you DO NOT GET A RESIST MESSAGE when you resist poisons, you would never know if you resisted a poison or not because the game only tells you that so and so has poisoned you.

so you see...regardless of how weak you think poisons are, the truth of the matter is that with all the PvP reductions other weapons get, and the complete nerf on our DoTs, that poisons outdamage us. and dont even get started on the ability to AREA poison people like this.

The point has been and continues to be that we are ALREADY effected by 75% reduction in damage. There are other things that need to be done to the combat medic to balance us, but applying the 75% reduction that you are championing IS NOT one of them

---

Message Edited by RhenGordon on 04-04-2004 10:25 PM

Kick-ass posts Rhen. All of us CM's /bowto you and your hard work. . .

Good point Gravis!

I think that what we need to remember is that the combat medic and doctor professions are *support* rolls. Negating the regen of the entire opposing force is a significant contribution in a fight. All those combat classes that can't hit mind would suddenly find themselves much more capable. Furthermore, if no one was regenerating, perhaps those amazing combat medic area heals would be useful =)

Also, consider what those "nerfed" poisons would have done to someone who was not buffed. I realize that most people in pvp fights now are enhanced/drugged/drunk, but it does bare keeping this in mind. The number mentioned at the top of the page would dominate a non-buffed fight.

I personally feel that doctor buffs are the most significant unbalancing factor in the game right now. As much as I love having a buff, putting on 80% composite armor, spamming my most costly special at the speed cap, and using a purely damage experimented weapon, I think that perhaps it's not what the developers had in mind. Perhaps a 50% reduction on H&A buffs? I mean, it's silly that when I go out, 2/3 of my HAM is from buffs, rather that being intrinsic. I suppose just a reduction on the buffing of Health and Action secondary stats would be suffiicient. That way wearing armor would still be a tactical decision. I'd just as soon leave the various mind effecting buffs as is, since there aren't any mind-stims...