Combat Medic Archive
Thread: If you want 75% reduction, you should look at these numbers (long post)
Morganite wrote:
I understand Rhen completely, I'm just saying a test with the best non venom health poison is the closest you can get tothe same test with an avg mind poison. I have gotten people with health poison before, but I never once got a nasty tell about it, it is always the mind poison that causes us trouble.
I have always said our damage output isn't what people hate, it is our ability to target an unhealable pool, and people's lack of doctor support. I mean, honestly, it doesnt matter what figure you buff your mind too, our damage will take it out. People hate rifleman for the same basic reason (mind hits). If tommorow we couldnt make mind poison, and rifleman targetted action with their specials instead of mind, nobody would care anymore. They cry for us to get a damage reduction because we go after mind. They all probably preferred it when t21's were not around. I do not agree with the nerf-herders arguement, but I understand their frustration. We own any class that isn't a tef'ing TK, or rifleman, end of story.
I am starting to think these worthless Dev's are the cause for our recent pain, not the people crying for us to be nerfed. Our issues have existed for months, they know our damage is fine, they know it is our ability to go for the mind with equal power as a rifleman, they just dont care about their customers obviously. Give them mind stims, or give us area cure's, give doctors innoculations, a better chance to resist us, something to shut them up. Their lack of doing something intelligent to help these people out is causing our troubles, not us, or the people complaining. Can better tactics help them out? Sure, but you cant ask people to smarten up overnight, so give them some help... They refuse to do it, it is leading to our downfall....
Message Edited by glorfindel23 on 03-31-2004 01:33 AM
We keep a'killin' em and they keep a'complainin'... They complained at me when I was a Carbineer because I could beat people, when I was a Commando, when I was a Combat Medic, when I was a Bounty Hunter, they whine now that I'm a fencer... people will whine no matter WHO beats them...
...No one can beat stupid people as consistently as the CM though... so as of the moment you guys stepped out of the laboratory with your semi-deadly poisons, 90% of the playerbase was already against you... I hope you people have learned your lesson about trying to be useful.
glorfindel23 wrote:
"When confronted with the numbers of what a 75% reduction would do to us, the nerfers always come back with you never miss. "
Probably because it's a valid argument. Though I said "we" since I am a Master CM. And the original auto hit wasn't my main point. My main point was that after this automatic hit the damage ticks even if you end up in a position where you would not be able to hit them each time it ticked. If we got an auto hit and it ticked once, that's one thing. But when we can be out of range, hiding, incapped, shooting with another weapon, shooting at a different opponent, etc. while our opponent gets hit half a dozen or more times, that makes direct DPS comparisons illogical. Give a Master Rifleman auto hit with Head Shot and he still has to be in range, conscious and shooting at you. It's not the "never miss" so much as the strength of our DoT.
If I understand what you are saying correctly, you are saying that a DoT then is unfair because it continues to tick even if we are engaged elsewhere or even dead. But isn't that true with all DoTs? Put a bleed on someone and does it not tick even if the combatant goes incap or runs away? Sure, a bleed is not as strong as our DoTs, but then their bleed is not the only damage they do, it costs us a lot of money to use it, it is the CMs ONLY form of attack, it can be removed BEFORE any damage is ever delivered, it freezes the attacker for 4 seconds allowing anyone and everyone to have their way with them, and it will not kill. So sounds like to me there are balancing issues there.
Also, I said I think our base damage should be doubled... so it wouldn't be a 75% PvP reduction on our current damage. It would be equivalent of a 37.5% reduction, which is quite different. I think everything having 75% reduced rather than everything except one makes sense, and people have complained about our PvE damage... so this would do both.
If this is because people think it is unfair, then it is unfair for CMs to have a 75% reduction in PvE. Everyone else does 500 - 1500 points of damage every second in environment play, we are the only profession that I am aware of that does the same damage in PvE that we do in PvP. There is something to be said about that. So raise our damage 75% in PvE and then apply the 75% reduction in PvP if what people want is fairness, coincedently this would amount to a net gain in PvP of 0.
Message Edited by glorfindel23 on 03-31-2004 01:33 AM
JudasTyberius wrote:
Maddogs, you just dont know how to PvP against a CM. You want some training? Come to Ahazi. I'll set you up a little crash course on how to not get hosed. You might have to read though, so you should have your helper monkey with you.
Ahazians I know you can do that kind of damage every second! Maybe not 3k... but I have a friend he was doing 1200 damage to a lair every second... I was useing flushing shoot 2 on the same lair and got about 516 damage (with a nice t21... 398 max dam).
CM's do about 560 damage every 10 (yes ten... the number) seconds. Even with these god send geo poisons we do about 1100 damage per 10 (ten) seconds! In that time you have done about 10k damage to any mob. Sorry but there is a factor 10 (this number pops up preety often huh?) between those numbers.
Asbalon wrote:
ArclightX you are comparing your PvM damage of 3k with thier PvP damage of 560!!!!
I know you can do that kind of damage every second! Maybe not 3k... but I have a friend he was doing 1200 damage to a lair every second... I was useing flushing shoot 2 on the same lair and got about 516 damage (with a nice t21... 398 max dam).
CM's do about 560 damage every 10 (yes ten... the number) seconds. Even with these god send geo poisons we do about 1100 damage per 10 (ten) seconds! In that time you have done about 10k damage to any mob. Sorry but there is a factor 10 (this number pops up preety often huh?) between those numbers.
I could say the same thing about you. Did you read my post at all? Did you take the time to compare the numbers we are talking about???? Even if I were to reduce YOUR PvM strength by 90% (And not 75% like it ist now) for PvP you are still doing the same amount of damage as CM's are doing with high end RARE loot drops!
"you are saying that a DoT then is unfair because it continues to tick even if we are engaged elsewhere or even dead. But isn't that true with all DoTs?"
No, I am saying that DPS arguments are flawed. It's fine that our DoT, and any DoT, works this way. But to consider our DoT to have "reasonable" DPS when compared to other profs 'regular' attacks is misguided.
If we had an attack that did instant damage with no DoT, and it had the DPS capability of our current poisons, then you could more easily argue that we shouldn't get reduction and that our DPS is 'reasonable.' If other professions were based on DoT attacks but their DPS was left at the same potential as at present, then you could argue ours is "reasonable."
But to argue for our DPS to be left unchanged because it seems okay on pure, straightnumbers, without considering other factors like "DoT vs. non-DoT" leaves the argument less than compelling.
37.5% reduced Poison that retains DoT abilities to tick without additional effort is acceptable to me. Unreduced poison DPS with removal of DoT could make sense (though I think it'd make more sense to have all effects reduced rather than all but one). But unreduced poison that also works with DoT advantages is superior to most attacks with similar DPS and shouldn't be considered "reasonable" or "fair" based on DPS alone.
In other words, it shouldn't have "the best of both worlds." Yes, yes, I know poison has limits and weaknesses, but for the consideration of DPS, it has other things that need to be factored in before you can make any worthwhile judgement as to it's fairness.
glorfindel23 wrote:
"you are saying that a DoT then is unfair because it continues to tick even if we are engaged elsewhere or even dead. But isn't that true with all DoTs?"
No, I am saying that DPS arguments are flawed. It's fine that our DoT, and any DoT, works this way. But to consider our DoT to have "reasonable" DPS when compared to other profs 'regular' attacks is misguided.
If we had an attack that did instant damage with no DoT, and it had the DPS capability of our current poisons, then you could more easily argue that we shouldn't get reduction and that our DPS is 'reasonable.' If other professions were based on DoT attacks but their DPS was left at the same potential as at present, then you could argue ours is "reasonable."
But to argue for our DPS to be left unchanged because it seems okay on pure, straightnumbers, without considering other factors like "DoT vs. non-DoT" leaves the argument less than compelling.
37.5% reduced Poison that retains DoT abilities to tick without additional effort is acceptable to me. Unreduced poison DPS with removal of DoT could make sense (though I think it'd make more sense to have all effects reduced rather than all but one). But unreduced poison that also works with DoT advantages is superior to most attacks with similar DPS and shouldn't be considered "reasonable" or "fair" based on DPS alone.
In other words, it shouldn't have "the best of both worlds." Yes, yes, I know poison has limits and weaknesses, but for the consideration of DPS, it has other things that need to be factored in before you can make any worthwhile judgement as to it's fairness.
Good points, the bottom line to this, or any arguement about CM's comes down to our mind poison/disease.. I have gotten into the habit of using health poison more. Never once get complaints, nasty tell's, or anything else when using that.. guess why? it can be healed.. If they took our ability to affect the mind pool out of the game, nobody would care about our damage at all, and I defy anyone to tell me I am wrong on this.
So therefore
Problem: CM's wreck the mind pool easier and more powerfully then any other profession save rifleman
Solution: allow mind to be healed more intelligently and easily, and the nerf cries will end..
they cant use the arguement that it would make it to easy to pve, PvE is easier then taking a crap after eating a lot of cheese...
as for the geniuses that want to give us a 75% reduction, what do we get in return? We have no weapon certs in CM, only our poisons, we cant shift weapons to something the target might be vuln to, we have our poison and disease, that's it. We get no defenses other then what is in ranged support in marksman. We spent 169 sp's, what do we get in return?
No, they want to nerf us to uselesness, because that way they can go back to having their uber template avoid 9/10 shots, use their stun weapons which people rarely resist to easily incap people, and target the mind.. Wait, CM is an uber template, we avoid shots from our range, we use weapons people barely resist, and we target mind.. I finally get it. They dont want to be combat medic, so instead they want to nerf us to be less uber then them again. Makes sense, dont use intelligence and guile to beat someone, just mash a few buttons, and rely on your your character template to do it for you.. Wait, that is what we do, only better..
Sorry, but I am tired of trying to explain and be nice to these morons who need a crying towel because their template cant deal with us. I wonder if the mind diseases we use in the game actually affect the people behind the keyboard at times.....
