Combat Medic Archive
Thread: The DPS Argument: Debunked.
Ternque01 wrote:
Also, vortexala's point that poisons don't incap is incredibly mute. Poisons/diseases DO incap.
Yes...but Vortexala also said that we don't know if that's how the Devs intend this to work, or if it's an actual bug. If it's a bug, there's no reason to complain that CMs are "uber" because of a bug. It will eventually get fixed.
Not going to comment on the number scenarios...because the people who claim we're overpowered ignore their own arguements, and then contradict themselves, trying to get the last word in.
jkray8472 wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Also, vortexala's point that poisons don't incap is incredibly mute. Poisons/diseases DO incap.
Yes...but Vortexala also said that we don't know if that's how the Devs intend this to work, or if it's an actual bug. If it's a bug, there's no reason to complain that CMs are "uber" because of a bug. It will eventually get fixed.
Not going to comment on the number scenarios...because the people who claim we're overpowered ignore their own arguements, and then contradict themselves, trying to get the last word in.
Listen, that is how things are now. Bug or not this is how the CM profession works. There is no blindness, contradiction, or confusion. That is how things are.
While texxie might champion to the devs to clarify this issue, it will be in now way a reason to allow you to hush me on this issue. I will just as validly argue that because you don't know if this is a bug then you could just as easily assume the other facet - just as you assumed the opposite. Because we don't know I now assume that is as is it's intended. Have I confused you?
Bug or intended.... we are in a discussion about how things work now. If you want to bring up a point that it's a feature of CM that is undecided, by all means do it in another thread. This thread is about DPS - it doesn't even have anything to do with incapacitation by diseases. Don't ignore the argument that is going on in this thread, and don't contradict yourself by bringing up a point on an issue that has nothing to do with what's being discussed.
This thread is a nice way to illustrate DPS on a specific pool in large populations of test subjects. Incapacitation has nothing to do with DPS. Why it was even brought up in this thread is a complete mystery.....
I agree that poison resistances must be fixed and verified as working as intended. But really... if you loose a lot of mind from poison you need to look for a way to regenerate that lost mind. So, try and see how high you can get your mind substats and then see how that affects regeneration. Sure, you probably won't null the damage taken, but then again... that can never have been how damage was intended to function.
Ternque01 wrote:
(1) Counters to Riflemen [synthsteaks, brandy, entertainer buffs, armor] are incredibly easy to obtain
Counters to Combat Medic [Canapé, brandy, entertainer buffs, Moun Gold] are incredibly easy to obtain.
(2) Counters to Riflemen are also of superb and incredible reliablity and ease-of-use in real conditions
Counters to Combat Medic are prettty reliable and shouldn't be too hard to use.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 07-18-2004 04:24 PM
Mild-Breeze-Trooper wrote:
I agree that poison resistances must be fixed and verified as working as intended. But really... if you loose a lot of mind from poison you need to look for a way to regenerate that lost mind. So, try and see how high you can get your mind substats and then see how that affects regeneration. Sure, you probably won't null the damage taken, but then again... that can never have been how damage was intended to function.
Ternque01 wrote:
(1) Counters to Riflemen [synthsteaks, brandy, entertainer buffs, armor] are incredibly easy to obtain
Counters to Combat Medic [Canapé, brandy, entertainer buffs, Moun Gold] are incredibly easy to obtain.
Let me tell you something... I use canape, brandy, dual entertainer buffs, and muon gold at all times when I PvP. These are ineffective counters as you well know. The only thing that will save a player is a doctor. Doctors are NOT easy to obtain. Finding an aware and skilled doctor is difficult. Do not pander me with these poor counters. Doctors are the only true counter to a CM. Those "easy to obtain" CM counters you mentionbuy you 10-20 more seconds of life. You are dead without a doctor period. Don't kid me.
(2) Counters to Riflemen are also of superb and incredible reliablity and ease-of-use in real conditions
Counters to Combat Medic are prettty reliable and shouldn't be too hard to use.
Getting doctor cures on a battlefied are unreliable and time-costly.. time that ticks damage away. Doctors die. Doctors have to run for their lives. Doctors have others to cure, including themselves before they can get to you. If you tell me that your "counters" are "real" counters, youneed to re-evaluate thesituation. Doctors are the only counters, and I have a friend who is always on Teamspeak with me at all times when I PvP, and getting cures with even a voice chat program takes significant time. I really feel for the vast majority of players who don't use voice-programs... most probably die before getting cured....
That sounds pretty hard doesn't it? It also sounds very unreliable. Don't kid me. Rifleman counters work 100% of the time... every hit you take is countered at any point in time. That I define as superb reliability. Having your doctor flee for his life, die, or have to cure 20 people before he gets to you is by definition unreliable. Foods, spices, and mind buffs only buy you time before you drop to the ground choking on your own vomit from poison.
There is no damage protection against poisons (that reduce damage like armor). Poison resist foods and tapes are a laughable joke. When I kill a rifleman, his threat ends. If I kill a CM, even with the lofty counters that you so happily point out, and my doctor has died, fled for his life, or i'm out of the cure cue for him, those counters do nothing to prevent my death - I hereby declare them unuseful counters. They don't stop the threat, they just buy you 10 more seconds of life. None of that poison is blocked. None of it is mitigated. I take it all in, and these counters you reference just make me have more hitpoints to the unmitigated, unblockable, and only doctor-countered effects.
Doctors are unreliable, you know it, I know it, even the Pope knows it. CM counters are unreliable, and having to run around in front of your doctor dying at his feet to get his attention (for the vast majority without voice-chat programs) IS the sheer definition of "hard to use". It furthermore completely cripples a combat team's offensive. That would also make using CM counters "hard to use" if a whole team has to stop what they are doing to get cured. Please come up with a better backing for your argument.
Grant it, getting cures shouldn't be simple and automatic, but the high-damage output of CM's is too high in a game-balance light. If CM counters are going to be so difficult to obtain and use as they are now, the damage must be decreased to accomodate for this large, crippling inconvienience. In short, the damage is too high for a system that also demands difficult counters.
Message Edited by Ternque01 on 07-18-2004 04:24 PM
I'm in purple.
jkray8472 wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
Listen, that is how things are now. Bug or not this is how the CM profession works. There is no blindness, contradiction, or confusion. That is how things are.
While texxie might champion to the devs to clarify this issue, it will be in now way a reason to allow you to hush me on this issue. I will just as validly argue that because you don't know if this is a bug then you could just as easily assume the other facet - just as you assumed the opposite. Because we don't know I now assume that is as is it's intended. Have I confused you?
Nope. But just as the 96m toss was a bug, we got dozens of dozens of people in here complaining about it. All we can tell them is: it's a bug. It's been reported. You can whine and cry and moan and B1tch all you want...but there's nothing we can do about it. No need to nerf a profession due to a bug. This guy was trying to discount what Texxie had said...and I was trying to point out how until we find the official stance, there's no point in crying about it.
Like I said, poison/disease incap has nothing to do with this discussion. Please stop hijacking the thread.
Bug or intended.... we are in a discussion about how things work now. If you want to bring up a point that it's a feature of CM that is undecided, by all means do it in another thread. This thread is about DPS - it doesn't even have anything to do with incapacitation by diseases. Don't ignore the argument that is going on in this thread, and don't contradict yourself by bringing up a point on an issue that has nothing to do with what's being discussed.
This thread is a nice way to illustrate DPS on a specific pool in large populations of test subjects. Incapacitation has nothing to do with DPS. Why it was even brought up in this thread is a complete mystery.....
Message Edited by Kavedawg on 07-19-2004 04:12 PM
Ternque01 wrote:
jkray8472 wrote:
Ternque01 wrote:
While texxie might champion to the devs to clarify this issue, it will be in now way a reason to allow you to hush me on this issue. I will just as validly argue that because you don't know if this is a bug then you could just as easily assume the other facet - just as you assumed the opposite. Because we don't know I now assume that is as is it's intended. Have I confused you?
Nope. But just as the 96m toss was a bug, we got dozens of dozens of people in here complaining about it. All we can tell them is: it's a bug. It's been reported. You can whine and cry and moan and B1tch all you want...but there's nothing we can do about it. No need to nerf a profession due to a bug. This guy was trying to discount what Texxie had said...and I was trying to point out how until we find the official stance, there's no point in crying about it.
Like I said, poison/disease incap has nothing to do with this discussion. Please stop hijacking the thread.
Lol, talk about hypocritical. I did not hijack this thread. Turnque hijacked this thread by mentioning the incap issue, which Texxie had already laid to rest. However, ignoring the hijacker would have led readers astray--thinking that the real CMs on the server agreed with his point. So I pointed out the inadequacies of his argument, thus laying the topic to rest once more. However, you have once again hijacked the thread on this topic. If you want it to die, stop mentioning it. The topic has been addressed, summarized, and people can now see what actually is. It's over.
Although...the incap issue is quite relevant into the dps factor. If you look at what the dps of a poison is after it has ticked the mind to 1...it's pretty sad. Yes, it keeps you at 1 point of mind, but the tick is reduced to 10-15 points per 10 seconds, depending on your stats, and encumbrance. With an incap, the dps calculation can effectively be cancelled. With no incap, and the poison continuing to tick, that poison's dps plummets after the first few ticks.
This is about DPS. Just like I said in the above post I made. CM damage output is too large when you view how unreliable and difficult obtaining cures on the battlefield is. If you guys want high damage, fine, give me instant and effective counters that I buy from a doctor. If curing on the battlefield is going to remain as difficult as it is, then drop the CM damage output. It is damaging large-scale fights... which btw are fun as hell!
Large-scale fights may be fun for you--but for those of us who have played FPS games, they are not challenging at all. You queue up your best attacks, and then it comes down to the rolls of the dice, and whoever has collected the best items. There is very little skill involved.
Also, please read my post about interdependence in the "Why Combat Medics are Univerally Hated" thread. The Devs have been trying to foster interdependence between professions since the game was launched. Requiring doctors in a group to counter CMs is simply part of that interdepence. Get used to it.
Nanuu wrote:
I've been reading about the arguments in defense of and against CM's. I just want to concentrate on one of the defense arguments:
"Rifleman (or other mind hitting classes) have a higher mind DPS than us, so why are people complaining about us"
This is the problem with the argument:
-You are arguing from a 1 to 1 perspective. Indeed a masterriflemancan out damage a MCMin a one on one fight. Well, the problem with the argument lies in that a MCM will poison EVERYONE within their area of effect while a Master rifleman can only focus on one person at a time.
-A master rifleman can only attack their ONE target when they are in range and visible. MCM's only need to apply the poison once and move on....the damage continues on the player no matter what. (Do not try to argue this with a mind bleed...they are useless and uncomparable).
-A MCM can stack these poisons thus multiplying their DPS. I heard that up to 6 poisons/diseases can be stacked? Correct me if Im wrong.
-Poisons and diseases ignore all armor and defenses unlike other mind hitting classes.
With all these counter-arguments in place, lets create a scenario.
You have 100 mind buffed players all standing in a grid, not moving. Who do you think will take out the 100 players quicker? The MRM or MCM? Take the same scenario, and make the players defense stackers with uber helmets....
DPS argument debunked. MCM out damages any mind hitting class.
you fail to take into consideration that 100 riflemen can do 100 times more damage than 100 CM.
DPS of 100 CM = DPS of theONE CM with the strongest poison
DPS of 100 (insert combat class)= 100 times DPS of (insert same combat class)
Message Edited by Kavedawg on 07-20-200402:57 PM
Message Edited by Kavedawg on 07-20-200403:04 PM
Message Edited by Kavedawg on 07-20-2004 03:05 PM