Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Area Cures and Innocs What CMs Can Expect On Tuesday
rhaspede wrote:
. . .. The only good thing about these cures is the med use. It will discourage dabbling because people will have to either be master doc to use the really good stuff, or just bring a master doc with them. . .
The med use and the duration of the innoc's will be a key factor in my opinion. Frankly, I know very few PvP Docs. When I was a PvP doc, I had a difficult time keeping everyone free of diseases/poisons, fires, heals, etc. I know the area cures are gonna make it easier for them to do their job but guess who my first target is gonna be? It used to be the CM but not anymore. . .
Our of curiosity, do the area cures cure the doc along with everyone else or will they need to use a regular cure pack?
Inat
RBN
DarthVillanus wrote:
Cm's will still have their place in pvp and pve. The only people who will drop cm are the Fotm'ers who only took up the profession so they could mind poison "all teh newbz" and spam headshot3.
It got really sad when I would participate in a 100 player raid (20% were docs) and we would still get wiped out by the almight cm tactics.......poison, die, clone, poison, die, clone, poison, die, clone.
These changes are nothing but positive for the pvp enviroment. The only players that don't like these changes are the cms who want their "I win" button back. End of story.
simply not accurate. i am certainly no "fotm," but i will be dropping much of cm if these changes are not substancially altered. that does sadden me, as i have been a cm from the first, but it is senseless to hang on after they destroy the effectiveness of your attacks.
and while it is true that pvp will certainly change, you can be sure there will be unexpected consequences to such a radical alteration to the current situation. you may not like all the changes that occur. in fact, i would wager that most of the whiners will be whining again, about some other nebulous complaint, within a few days.
but i do predict that a lot of faction bases will be destroyed, as the cm was often the only thing that prevented this in the past. that should be entertaining.
redheady47 wrote:
Cm's are getting what they deserve plain and simple. Looking at these tests you still land 4 out of 20 throws andin an aoe throw on 20 people your still gonna get 4 people infected. Thats more then balanced and fair. Being able to have a no fail apply with damage that is unresistable was the most unbalancing pvp attack. One person shouldnt decide a battle and up until everyone picked up doc, cms did.
With multiple cm's in your groupthey can still have a huge impact on the battle keeping the docters busy on the other side as it should have been from the start.
commando/smuggler? lol. you are just lonely to have another profession as useless as yours.
redheady47 wrote:
PsionicHawk wrote:
We will keep the DOCS busy? You mean A doc, who is facing poisons and diseases with near max potency and can cures these in one shot with a Area A Cure. Yeah you can be quiet now.
You mean the docs who were facing your poison/disease that landed with one shot on Area A's? Yah YOU can be quite now. Now someone without docter has a chance of survival against a CM if they happen to have an innoculation running. You still have a chance of landing on the first throw just much much lower of a chance, but your chance of poison/diseasing some one with both innoculations is even lower. With all the griefing that goes on with people leaving poison/diseased people to triple incap for decay, this cant be a bad thing.
Now that you've been educated. If a doc on the other side is forced to keep healing his teammates hes most likely not going to be an offensive threat at all....hence keeping them busy. I'm interested to see if the heavy pvp guilds will even use the innoculations. I think it would be more effective for the docs to just use the innocs on themselves and use cures for everyone else. With an aoe cure..../gasp....one doc can actually counter one cm!!
Bamboozle wrote:
A doctor shouldn't be able to counter 10 CMs.
redheady47 wrote:
vortexala wrote:
redheady47 wrote:
Cm's are getting what they deserve plain and simple. Looking at these tests you still land 4 out of 20 throws andin an aoe throw on 20 people your still gonna get 4 people infected. Thats more then balanced and fair.
No, actually, it's not 'more then fair'.
Two things to know: Innoculation resists go against our Potency rating on our poisons and diseases. Cures go against double the Effectiveness rating of our poisons and diseases.
Now then, the tests were performed with Single-Target poisons and diseases vs innoculations and area cures. Our Area Effect Poisons and Diseases have far less potency then their single-target counterparts, so obviously if I was missing THAT badly with a single-target, an area effect would be worse off. So if a group of 20 people, all inocc'd, were targeted with a regular potency Area Poison most if not all would resist.
And in order to even TRY and get past the innoc, we'd have to up the potency greatly at the sacrifice of effectiveness. So we'd hit, say 5 people out of 20 with a Potency experimented area poison. The effectiveness on it will be so low that a decent lower-level area cure will clear it.
And all this is before ANY damage is even taken.
Funny...doesn't seem too balanced and fair to me.
5 out of 20............thats how many any other aoe attack will hit and we still have to deal with defenses, armor, psgs, food, and mitigation. This is balancing plain and simple.
You also tested with very weak poisons NOT using spider venom....effectiveness isnt gonna be hurt that bad in the venom versions.
Combat medics will still make an impact on a battle just not the game breaking one they have been.
Just a FYI yall didnt get aoe cures because Rifleman/CM would be near unkillable....and if near a body of water with no jedi around unkillable.
can you not understand simple english? even if you hit, it is all cleared for everyone in a large radius with one low-level med use from a doc. it is completely unbalanced, just as having a poison with no possible cure would be completely unbalanced. but then, we have never had THAT degree of an edge, lol.
Message Edited by neutrineaux on 08-09-2004 11:10 AM
redheady47 wrote:
5 out of 20............thats how many any other aoe attack will hit and we still have to deal with defenses, armor, psgs, food, and mitigation. This is balancing plain and simple.
You also tested with very weak poisons NOT using spider venom....effectiveness isnt gonna be hurt that bad in the venom versions.
Combat medics will still make an impact on a battle just not the game breaking one they have been.
Just a FYI yall didnt get aoe cures because Rifleman/CM would be near unkillable....and if near a body of water with no jedi around unkillable.
Swerve99 wrote:
Bamboozle wrote:
A doctor shouldn't be able to counter 10 CMs.
Why the heck should there be 10 CM's in a single group anyway? Wont it be much better to have a mixed bunch of professions in PvP anyway?
Its exactly with a mindset like urs that makes PvP and the GCW suck, and if you cant see that then ur blind. As it is Vort alr mentioned that to look for PvP we have to hop around for a few before even finding a fight. Very soon we wont even have any one left to fight if you any one class owns all. Even the Jedi are feeling the heat now against the meele class chars as people start changing their templates to counter them. So what makes you think that you should remain the one and only profession that stays relatively untouched and unchallenged in PvP? CM's should not even BE in the same league as a Jedi.
Flame away, see if I care at all. Yes I am a Jedi, but more importantly I WAS a CM till just two weeks ago and defended 'our' profession stoutly for more than 6 mths. It was only out of sheer boredom that I switched my template and realised just how adversely CM's affect PvP. Dont any of you miss the good old days when GCW was actually mass PvP? When we had a grand ol time running around and in packs without fearing that within seconds a SINGLE class could put a crimp in ur style after having spent the past hour buffing up the group? Hell yeah I loved being that guy, hell yeah I did my fair share of black barring some poor sod and laughing myself silly - but very soon the only people ur gonna be fighting would be........?
Thats just it - absolutely didley squat.
All I am saying is take a step back and have a look at the bigger picture. After all a healthy GCW means more fights and more fun for YOU folk too.
Swerve
Starsider
not a flame, but i think the 10 cm vs one doc was an exaggeration to make a point, not intended as an example of how you should or should not set up your pvp group. 10 cm's vs a doc/fencer would now (after this unbalance) get "pwned" -- and i assume you know what i mean.
the jedi and template stackers will now be "the one and only profession that stays relatively untouched and unchallenged in PvP."hopefully, the jedi will be nerfed severely next, as they are killing pvp. followed by the temploiters. hehe, if you disagree with this, wait for a cople of weeks after the cm nerf, and check the fora again. i would wager you will be able to find this sentiment more and more often, lol.
unless a balanced and sweeping revision is done that addresses all the imbalances simultaneously (which seems as difficult to imagine as it is unlikely to occur), or unless small changes are done, tried, and tweaked, we will just see wild swings in who is the dominant pvp profession or template. making large changes is usually not a good way to achieve balance. this is a large change. and it is clearly unbalancing.
make no mistake, if it is not cm/rifleman or whatever your cm/xxx nightmare is, it will be some other "template." making large changes in one profession is not a smart idea. but then, the i.q. of those making the decisions has been repeatedly questioned.
for some of us, whether cm or other classes, that essentially spells the end of pvp for us. i for one am not going to grind up to a new "temploit" every other week to try to stay ahead of the latest ridiculous nerf. neither are the folks i play with regularly. we are just trying to figure out if there is enough content exclusive of pvp to warrant the effort.
nicely put.
Mmaxx wrote:
redheady47 wrote:
5 out of 20............thats how many any other aoe attack will hit and we still have to deal with defenses, armor, psgs, food, and mitigation. This is balancing plain and simple.
You also tested with very weak poisons NOT using spider venom....effectiveness isnt gonna be hurt that bad in the venom versions.
Combat medics will still make an impact on a battle just not the game breaking one they have been.
Just a FYI yall didnt get aoe cures because Rifleman/CM would be near unkillable....and if near a body of water with no jedi around unkillable.
I don't beleive you read what you are responding to. From the first couple post in this tread you can see that innoculations seam fair in potency ( I can live with hitting someone 5 times before it sticksif they've been innoculated ) but they implemented them with a duration that makes them useless. Paying for an innocualtion is like paying someone to open your containers, you get what you paid for but it turns out to be useless.
The real issue here is one doc can area cure all our poisons / diseases. Cure them. Not decrease their potency, remove them entirely. This negates the class. They have made several changes to the CM class lately and most were for the better. The removal of a few bugs which were exploited was a good thing. But as it stands now, a CM is frozen to the groud after tossing a poison that can be cleared by a running doc everytime. This cure covers a huge area on top of that.
Maybe we needed some sort of fix. maybe we didn't, that all doesn't matter now. This isn't a fix. This is a class killer.
Since you don't seam to comprehend what this means, think of it as ifthey gaveTKMs the ability to unload riflemans guns...before the Rifleman is able to get a shot off. And they don't even have to know where the rifleman is, just do an area rifle unloading and the rifleman looses his weapons. Sure the Rifleman can reload once all the TKMs are dead but until then, they just sit there and wait for someone else to kill the TKMs because they have no weapons while the TKMs are around. Actually TKM is a bit too obvious since you can tell who has TK in them from their weapon. You can't tell who has Doc in them from what they have in their hands.
So I'm guessing the strategy for CMs in longer battles will be as follows:
Start the battle by throwing high potency stuff
As enemies start dying and cloning (and losing their innoculations), switch to low potency, high effectiveness stuff.
All of this will be pretty useless, however, with one doc spamming area cures.
vortexala wrote:
Alright folks, sorry for the wait.
Below are tests Iperformed on TCBria, many Thanksto the folks of Arca Effex, Corellia for providing all the resources and facilities to test with.
This is what you can expect come Tuesday.I'll say it right now, it looks bad. BUT, I do have assurances that these things will be tweaked in 9.4. Unfortunately, I don't know when 9.4 is going to hit(but my guess is a week from Tuesday) and I'm not sure yet how much will be tweaked. But, rest assured, I will be(and have been) doing my best to make them see the light.
Also, the only change to uninnoc'd folks is the 'always a 5% chance to miss/hit'. So if you catch someone uninnoc'd, there should be any noticeable difference.
Stick with me folks, we'll get through this...
The Numbers
Cure Packs Made:
- Cure Disease Area C - 257 Effectiveness, 25 Area Effect
- Cure Disease Area C - 229 Effectiveness, 27 Area Effect
- Cure Poison Area C - 456 Effectiveness, 27 Area Effect
- Cure Poison Area C - 325 Effectiveness, 29 Area Effect
Innoculations Made:
- Disease Innoculation C - 199 Resist, 2030 Duration, 6 Absorption Rate
- Disease Innoculation C - 199 Resist, 1778 Duration, 9 Absorption Rate
- Poison Innoculation C - 185 Resist, 2460 Duration, 3 Absorption Rate
- Poison Innoculation C - 185 Resist, 1704 Duration, 9 Absorption Rate
Poisons Used:
- Health Poison C - 96 Potency, 295 Effectiveness, 30 Range
- Health Poison C - 123 Potency, 274 Effectiveness, 29 Range
- Health Poison C - 195 Potency, 140 Effectiveness, 30 Range
Diseases Used:
- Health Disease C - 95 Potency, 97 Effectiveness, 30 Range
- Health Disease C - 122 Potency, 105 Effectiveness, 31 Range
- Health Disease C - 193 Potency, 82 Effectiveness, 30 Range
Testing Done
Poison Resists:
1st Set:
- Poison Innoculation C - 185 Resist, 2460 Duration, 3 Absorption Rate
- Health Poison C - 96 Potency, 295 Effectiveness, 30 Range
- 16 Resists
- 4 Hits
2nd Set:
- Poison Innoculation C - 185 Resist, 2460 Duration, 3 Absorption Rate
- Health Poison C - 123 Potency, 274 Effectiveness, 29 Range
- 16 Resists
- 4 Hits
3rd Set:
- Poison Innoculation C - 185 Resist, 2460 Duration, 3 Absorption Rate
- Health Poison C - 195 Potency, 140 Effectiveness, 30 Range
- 12 Resists
- 8 Hits
Disease Resists:
1st Set:
- Disease Innoculation C - 199 Resist, 2030 Duration, 6 Absorption Rate
- Health Disease C - 95 Potency, 97 Effectiveness, 30 Range
- 19 Resists
- 1 Hits
2nd Set:
- Disease Innoculation C - 199 Resist, 2030 Duration, 6 Absorption Rate
- Health Disease C - 122 Potency, 105 Effectiveness, 31 Range
- 16 Resists
- 4 Hits
3rd Set:
- Disease Innoculation C - 199 Resist, 2030 Duration, 6 Absorption Rate
- Health Disease C - 193 Potency, 82 Effectiveness, 30 Range
- 12 Resists
- 8 Hits
Curing Tests
Poison:
- Cure Poison Area C - 456 Effectiveness, 27 Area Effect
- Health Poison C - 96 Potency, 295 Effectiveness, 30 Range
- Single Shot from the cure cleared the poison. This happened4times. It's supposed to be a 1to2 ratio(Cure Effectiveness Pack Rating vs 2x Poison Effectiveness Pack Rating) yet the cure still managed to clear out a stronger poison each time.
Disease:
- Cure Disease Area C - 229 Effectiveness, 27 Area Effect
- Health Disease C - 122 Potency, 105 Effectiveness, 31 Range
- Highest Effective Disease I could make was cleared in one shot each and every time(Cure Effectiveness Pack Rating vs 2x Poison Effectiveness Pack Rating)within a 54m Diameter Area.
Message Edited by vortexala on 08-08-2004 11:40 AM
Rikilii wrote:
So I'm guessing the strategy for CMs in longer battles will be as follows:
Start the battle by throwing high potency stuff
As enemies start dying and cloning (and losing their innoculations), switch to low potency, high effectiveness stuff.
All of this will be pretty useless, however, with one doc spamming area cures.