Combat Medic Archive
Thread: About the DevChat Area Cures and Innoculations : Feedback Time, Folks.
Zurck wrote:I keep hearing people talk about 3 levels of innoculations. Why would anyone want a level A or B innoculation? When is the last time you heard someone asking for a Level A or B buff? Instead it makes more sense to have a total of 6 innoculations. 3 Poison and 3 Disease, but rather then levels make them pool specific.
A very valid observation Zurck. The idea of different levels would also imply that anyone less than a master doc or Master CM would be able to craft/use them. The medical professions already have a ton of clutter in their schematic lists, no need for more.
Dr. Grim
-shadow-talon- wrote:
Brainplay wrote:
-shadow-talon- wrote:
I'll take it as a bad example especially the "master medic" part. Yes doctors are needed on the battlefield. They are still the only ones who can revive and suppress fire as well as cure states (carbineer area states can suck) but they still should not have the main role in a PvP battle as the primary medical support. Even after area cures are implemented you'll still have plenty of combat viability not to mention you can master ANY elite class you want and still hold master doc.
You bring up excellent points, and I don't altogether disagree with them, however giving CMs the /curepoison and /curedisease abilities will hurt docs just as much as if the CMs all went away imho, and it could even make the PvP situation worse with everyone going CM to counter CM which would only worsen the current "Poison wars" we are currently seeing.
It would only take one CM to counter another CM and with the ability to negate poisons much more prolific the "poison wars" as you put it will be a thing of the past. Why would you really want to go into a profession to poison/disease when it can be countered by TWO classes instead of one.
You make a valid point, yet I don't want CMs to go away. Your example of two classes being able to counter them makes them less useful than if docs were the only ones with the ability to /curepoison and /curedisease. I really don't see the devs removing this ability from Docs and I truly have a hard time seeing them granting CM these two abilities as it is one of the attractions of being a doc, whereas area heals and poison/disease is yours. I know that that the precedent lies with CMs for Ranged and Area Heals, but even the area heals are Ranged. I saw a great suggestion on the Doc forum that Docs get an "immediate area AoE cure", meaning a radius from where the doc is standing, not a ranged throw with an AE like you have now. The thing that makes you a combat medic IMO is the "Range". Nothing says a doc can't have a mister or something that folks in his immediate vicinity inhale.
Remove? Who said anything about remove?You'll stillhave the ability although if a Combat Medic is presentthat means its one lessthing you have to worry about.You'll still have to deal withfire, states,reviving and in some capacityhealing as well. Why shouldn't you get a point blank "area" cure? Because you aren't Combat Medics. Thats"mister" you're talking about is going to have the same range as noviceor level 1 Combat Medics. It alsois contrary to what your profession is, that being a single target profession.
One of which you know is too busy either running missions or buffing at a starport (lazy doctors dont have rez or wound packs half the time).
I will take THIS as a bad example. A small percentage of docs on any given server are out buffing for cash. Most of the docs I know are on the forefront of battle, resuscitating, healing states/damage/bleeds and curing the nastiness you folks concoct.
Most of the doc's I know are doing janta missions for cash and something to supplement their buff packs. Its all in the eye of the beholder. Buffing is what draws a majority of players to doctor just like poisoning draws a majority of players to CM. Every doc I've met does only one or two of those things you mentioned since they're running around single target curing.
While I will agree that the CM description does infer this, the actual skills alloted between the two professions would speak otherwise. Docs are NEEDED on the PvP battlefield as it stands and I'm sure there are MANY players who do NOT want to see that change. Primarily us docs, and if we are to be "in the rear curing permanent damage that is done to a player" then the profession isn't worth playing imo. The most fun I have is dragging incap or dead players in the thick of battle, dodging laser bolts, and resuscitating or curing/healing them. Hell, I even buff resuscitated players in battle as it adds another challenge. Let the Master Medics sit in the rear to heal wounds.
Why a bad example? (Yes I was being sarcastic about the master medics). You state yourself that Docs are needed on the battlefield for the exact reasons I was saying I like being on the battlefield.
Actually I was pointing out how you are the only ones that can do those actions so you are needed by default. Doctors are the only medical support that matters on the battlefield and I find that very wrong. Once I throw my poisons I have nothing to do but shoot my rifle until someone's MIND incap's. Then I have to decide if their combat abilities are worth replenishing their MIND while destroying mine (I'm a zabrak and even one healmind is devestating) if I can get to them in time.
Like one other poster mentioned, Doctors are the MOST relied on profession in this game for both PvP and PvE. Giving them innoculations just increases the reliance on a single profession which evenincreases Combat Medic's reliance on them!
Area cures in the hands of a CM would effectively negate their own ability to turn the tide of a battle but instead would call for tactical usage. Throw right away? Wait till the opponent CM's are down? etc. This is strategy, its makes it a challenge, and having more than one CM would kill the "queen" arguement right away. Yes this would mean you would have to come prepared with a CM(s) of your own. Yes, this means you would have to actually have to plan something for it to work. Yes, this would increase the need for grouping and working as a team in a game where soloing is the norm instead of exceptional.
As to the point of innoculations, once again I don't see them as being CM oriented. They fall more into line with a)Our current ability as docs to cure these items and b)They are similar to buffs as a pre-battle measure. As for requiring a CM in your group causing there to be more "strategy", isn't that how it's currently supposed to be with docs? How/why should area cures and innoculations change this? imho "Balance" infers one class being able to counter another, not that you need two of the same class to duke it out.
New technology = new strategy. Balance means that every profession has a place in the scheme of things and that doesn't necessarily mean combat. How does an architech or ranger fit into combat? Doctors buffs which are as much a part of the profession itself are REQUIRED to do anything in the mid-high level content area.
Dr. Grim
It's funny how you say CMs feel useless, b/c I still see alot of CMs running around, winning the battle for their team with they're poisons. Sure, a Doc can heal a poison in one cure, but how often have you seen it happen? Not to mention it's a single, 6m range cure. CMs can area poison much faster than a Doc can heal it. I don't mean to be rude, but anyone that tries to tell me or any other long-time/experienced Doctor that we are the most relied on profession can turn that around and stick it, b/c that is simply not true.
Like I said before, I don't want area heals on my Doc, it doesn't fit with the profession image and it would simply not be fair to CMs, who ARE supposed to be the cream of the crop in combat healing. Giving CMs area poison/disease heals fits perfectly and introduces new strategies with CMs. HOWEVER, it is common sense that Innoculations should go to Doctors, not CMs... but not until buffs have been nerfed. CMs having a "service" does not fit with the profession, nor do Innoculations. Anyone with the ability to look beyond their own profession can easily see this. Why cant Combat Medics have a "service"? Last time I checked you didn't need to be a doctor to give an innoculation either. Its not rocket science, its a poke in the arm (or butt) and you're done. Its another ability that would increase a group PvP'ers reliance on doctors.
And as for Innocs, they should be at Master Doc only, and if for some reason the Devs see reason to give it to CMs who are not clinical healers, they should only be craftable by Doctors... and the idea of using CM components to do it isn't bad either, makes sense.
Zurck wrote:
I keep hearing people talk about 3 levels of innoculations. Why would anyone want a level A or B innoculation? When is the last time you heard someone asking for a Level A or B buff? Instead it makes more sense to have a total of 6 innoculations. 3 Poison and 3 Disease, but rather then levels make them pool specific.
Same reason why there are Poison/disease A - C packs or cure A-C packs. Varying grades of innoculationwould havea greater chance of either resisting or mitigating the poison/disease as you go up in power. If a Master Combat Medic hits you with a master crafted poison its going to take a master crafted innoculation to counter/mitigate it.
Kavedawg wrote:
Innoculations (Doc crafted, CM used)
give doctors the BASE blueprint (resource requirements do not differ between a health poison and a mind poison)of the CM's single target poison/disease and use the same resources and components exceptfor the infection amplifier slot. Repace the IA requirement with a Liquid Suspension requirement with quantity of liquid suspensionsdependenton the innoculation class (A class, B class, or C class) . Innoculation effectivness and duration should be the SAME as a poison in the same class (ie an A class innoculation made with the best resources and components will have the same effectiveness value and duration as an A class poison made with the best components and resources, this might mean adjusting the infection amplifier or liquid suspension so they can be made to be equal in power)
Innoculations are more of a buff Item so one would think that doctors should get it...but.....we were promised some time ago by Mr Henson (before we got mindheal)that CM's would be receiving "short term combat buffs" and this would fit thebill for a MCM short term combat buff. Innoculations should be done for each type of poison and disease limited to 1 poison innoculation and 2 disease innoculations. It should be made if a person wishes to have more than the limit of innoculations they can chance it but they would run the risk of getting sick (spice downer) for the duration of the last innoculation.
The effectivness of the innoculation would cancle out the effectivness of a poison before combat medic effectivness is figured into the equation. Innoculations have no effect on duration...that's what cures are for.
Area Cure (Doc Crafted Doc use)
the same blueprint as the current cures but add a Dispersal Mechinisim requirement dependenant on the Class ( 1 for A, 2 for B, 3 for C) but before this you may want to push the issue since doctors can halva cure now and with the innoculation and area cure abilitiesthe devs may want to re-examine the cure effectivnes vs poison/disease effectiveness numbers.
As long as CM's can stack poisons, different classes of innoculations should exist to counter area stacking.
The Innoculation, in my view, should be a short term, point blank area buff without a droid or medcenter requirement applied by a master CM and affecting only players grouped with the CM. The innoculation itself would be crafted by Master doctors using the CM blue print for aAREA POISON / DISEASE exchanging the infection amplifier requirement with a liquid suspension requirement. The innoculation packs would be equal in effectivness, duration, and area effect as its poison counterpart if both were made with the same resources and the infection amplifier and liquid suspensionhad the same power value. There would be seperate poison and diseaseinnoculation packs for each of the HAM pools and also Disease innoculation packs for each of the substats. I still think innoculations should be limited to 1 poison type and 2 disease types applied to a single player at any given time. A second poison innoculation type could be given to a player but I feel there should be at least a 50% chance of something very bad happening.
As stated in my previous post, the effectiveness of the innoculation would cancle out the effectiveness of the poison. Innoculation effectiveness for each class will be cumulitive (ie a class A, B, and C mind poison innoculation is given to the CM's group)
The above innoculation is ment only to curb the damage of the CM's area poison since that is the paticular poison/disease that would make a MCM look overpowered. CM's are still allowed to stack an area poison and a single target poison countering the innoculation but only on a individual basis. CM's could also throw a area poison effecting a different pool (something other than mind ) to bypass an opponents innoculation but since health and action are healable by anyone with novice medic, these poisons can be countered effectively. Also since the innoculation is based on the CM poison schematic, the innoculation effectivnes will be almost as dependant on resource shifts as the CM poisons.
as for the Area cure, I just wanted to add that the AE should be dependent on the Dispersal Mech and capped at a max of 20m
Lexy wrote:
Doctors have buffs as a service oriented skill. CM's should have a service skill too, which they currently lack. Innoculations would be the perfect service skill for CM's, a service they can sell to combat groups right before they go into battle.
I agree with what Lexy just said. It can have a timer like a buff does. It could make us cash as well. As for area cures, if anything like area or ranged comes into play I think CMs should have that.
Docs have the up close and single heals/cures/states. CMs have the area/ranged heals, might as well toss the cures into that as well if it's area/ranged.
Kavedawg wrote:Honestly I don't see why both CM's and Doctors can't have their own versions of the innoculations, CM's could do the short term buff for the combat situation while doc's can do a large long term buff from a medcenter or droid. Just need to be carefull not to totaly gimp CM by allowing all stats to be innoculated at the same time.
Actually this is not a bad idea. CM's could fill the gap in combat itself and pick up the slack for those who may have entered the battle unprepared or the combatant knew they would be group with a CM and didn't want to dish out for the doc innoculation knowing that a "per instance" innoculation would be available.
I also like the idea of innoculations requiring some CM crafted components. It creates a market for the CMs and the availability of application from both Doc and CM creates more options for the PvP players.
As to innoculations being for a specific pool I REALLY like that. At first you know that everyone will be innoculating mind, but after the rebalance that may not be the gimme that it is now (one can only dream, right?). This would add some strategy to the application and countering of poisons. The CMs can fling some poo, see what sticks or ticks as normal and then go from there. Call me a pariah, but this may also negate the need for an area cure. The more I think about it, and read folks suggestions, innoculations may fit the bill alone, without completely rendering a CMs ability to use DoTs pointless. Call me "twisted".
Dr. Grim