Combat Medic Archive
Thread: About the DevChat Area Cures and Innoculations : Feedback Time, Folks.
Docs ARE intended to be on the battlefield, otherwise we would be limited to wound and buff packs. Poison, disease, dmg, bleed and state cures would not be in our arsenal if this was not the intention. From a game design standpoint it plainly appears that we are meant to be there countering the DoTs you folks apply as well as the states and bleeds applied by other professions.
I was a master combat medic/master doc from August/September, respectively, of last year up until this past February or so, at which point I dumped MCM to try some other professions. I really enjoyed Combat Medic, and I understand the issues you folks are faced with, but you can't have it both ways. My take on CM (granted it was my own play style, but also that of many at the time before it became FOTM) was that we were the best DAMAGE healers in a combat situation and we could tip the scales in our group's favor in the heat of battle with our Dots. I don't think it was ever the devs intention, from the design stages at least, that a CM would be the deciding factor in a conflict, which is clearly the case at this point and time.
I can understand the argument for area poison/disease cures could be your domain, especially with the current precedent of area heals, but my personal take is that poison, disease and state cures always have been, and should remain, the domain of doctors. As to innoculations these fall in line with buffs imho, and therefore fall under the realm of the Doctors.
I understand that this isn't the popular opinion, but I tried to present my take as concisely and civily as possible. I don't wish you CM's harm, but there do need to be more effective countermeasures to your DoTs as well as validity to the statement "Bring a doc".
Dr. Grim
Gnuut wrote:
-shadow-talon- wrote:
Not to sound negative here, but it seems as though all of those on these boards who have been saying "Bring a doc" as the counter to the nerf-cryers are now saying that the doc shouldn't be the counter to their poison/disease. You, as a community gathered around this profession, really need to make up your minds.We did make up our minds. However we also had to adjust to what other players feedback was. When we said "Bring a Doc" they said "Nerf CMs". Now that the threat of poisons and diseases have been lessened by:
- capping the range
- capping the speed of the application
- removing speed caps for cures and heals
CMs feel more or less useless. A Doctor with 2000 in skills can now cure our nastiest venom class poison with a Cure A pack. So in effect a CM feels worthless since a player with weak medical skill can wipe away all the hard work the CM has put into making an effective poison pack. True enough a CM should not be the all out raid killer but at the same time a virtual medical novice is countering the skills of a Master. That isn't right. If that will be the case then potency needs to play a part in preventing a victim from being cured. A more potent poison should reduce the amount of damage that is cured by the doctor.
By making poison and disease virtually useless against other players CMs are left with healing health and action. With buffs, armor and food as overpowered as they are, our heals are negligible. With mind heals the effect is debilitating towards CMs. We basically get little to no useful skills for the points we pay.
What skills make it worthwhile to a CM to keep the profession?
You bring up excellent points, and I don't altogether disagree with them, however giving CMs the /curepoison and /curedisease abilities will hurt docs just as much as if the CMs all went away imho, and it could even make the PvP situation worse with everyone going CM to counter CM which would only worsen the current "Poison wars" we are currently seeing.
Docs ARE intended to be on the battlefield, otherwise we would be limited to wound and buff packs. Poison, disease, dmg, bleed and state cures would not be in our arsenal if this was not the intention. From a game design standpoint it plainly appears that we are meant to be there countering the DoTs you folks apply as well as the states and bleeds applied by other professions.
As stated in the description of Combat Medics, we are supposed to be the best and primary battlefield healers. We can't take on that role while only being able to heal 5 out of 13 types of combat damage. doctors belong in the rear curing the permanent damage that is done to a player.While I will agree that the CM description does infer this, the actual skills alloted between the two professions would speak otherwise. Docs are NEEDED on the PvP battlefield as it stands and I'm sure there are MANY players who do NOT want to see that change. Primarily us docs, and if we are to be "in the rear curing permanent damage that is done to a player" then the profession isn't worth playing imo. The most fun I have is dragging incap or dead players in the thick of battle, dodging laser bolts, and resuscitating or curing/healing them. Hell, I even buff resuscitated players in battle as it adds another challenge. Let the Master Medics sit in the rear to heal wounds.
I was a master combat medic/master doc from August/September, respectively, of last year up until this past February or so, at which point I dumped MCM to try some other professions. I really enjoyed Combat Medic, and I understand the issues you folks are faced with, but you can't have it both ways. My take on CM (granted it was my own play style, but also that of many at the time before it became FOTM) was that we were the best DAMAGE healers in a combat situation and we could tip the scales in our group's favor in the heat of battle with our Dots. I don't think it was ever the devs intention, from the design stages at least, that a CM would be the deciding factor in a conflict, which is clearly the case at this point and time.
Overpowered buffs armor and food make our heals negligible in combat. Add to that overpowered StimBs provided by Doctors which basically negate the need for a CMs healing abilities.I can't disagree with you there, but I think that that is for another discussion.
I can understand the argument for area poison/disease cures could be your domain, especially with the current precedent of area heals, but my personal take is that poison, disease and state cures always have been, and should remain, the domain of doctors. As to innoculations these fall in line with buffs imho, and therefore fall under the realm of the Doctors.
So basically give Doctors who already have the ability to heal 12 out of 13 types of combat damage, an even greater ability to negate a CMs damage, not to mention the reduction of the cure/heal timer? On top of the "cash cow" ability to enhance a players stats? CMs have few enough abilities as it is and not only do you want the power to lessen our worth but you wish to deny us the chance at gaining any other abilities to compensate for it?That is a pretty myopic take on the situation and if the "Bring a Doc" assertion was ever true then we wouldn't be lessening your worth any more than we already have. It's more like adapting to the current state of things. As it stands someone can hit a PvP group with an AE, spider venom, poison DoT and with the strength of the tick it is hard if not impossible to get to more than a couple of the squad before your mind is ticked down to nothing. I was fighting a battle a week or so back and the damn poison was ticking for like 1100 (Not an exaggeration, I was watching.) Now this was probably a single target poison, but he/she just kept stacking them on and I couldn't keep it off of myself, let alone anyone else before going incap. Now I have yet to PvP since the /applypoison & /applydisease delay, but I was watching a CM at the Imp Op on Dant tonight and he was chucking his death faster than every three seconds. Seemed like he threw, then as the animation finished he threw again. I don't see much of a "change" there, but admittedly I need to PvP a bit more before weighing in on it.
I understand that this isn't the popular opinion, but I tried to present my take as concisely and civily as possible. I don't wish you CM's harm, but there do need to be more effective countermeasures to your DoTs as well as validity to the statement "Bring a doc".
The "bring a Doc" argument was valid back before heal times were reduced to 0 delay andbefore our toss times were capped. Now players don't need to think about bringing Docs since they can pick up poison cure for a grand total of 92 points and be just as effective at curing it as a Master Doc would be. For disease cures a mere 97 points will buy you peace of mind.Where will the worth of Doctors in PVP be when no one plays a CM anymore because it's a waste of points? Guess you will be back to playing AFK buffbots again.
I do agree that the /curepoison and /curedisease skills could be placed a bit further up to discourage dabblers, but then shouldn't /applypoison and /applydisease move up as well? I think there are more FOTM offenders who layer some CM into their template and that the new trend of folks pickup up enough doc to counter them is out of necessity, not desire. CMs were nowhere near as prolific up to 4 months ago as they are now. It seems that the CM population has exploded and it is the afformentioned FOTM template folks who have made it necessary to even have this debate.
I don't think that there being fewer CMs will hurt Docs involvment in PvP at all, but I don't think that CMs will drop off as drastically as you seem to think they will. Sure the FOTM D00ds will get frustrated and leave, but the dedicated CMs will rise to the challenge and continue on their plight to spread the love in PvP. This will have another side-effect I believe, which is that folks will no longer feel the need to spend skill points on something they didn't really want in the first place, and allow those who have to free them up and put them in areas they would much rather explore.
Oh and I will NEVER be an AFK buffbot. I'll pick up CM again before that happens!
-shadow-talon- wrote:
You bring up excellent points, and I don't altogether disagree with them, however giving CMs the /curepoison and /curedisease abilities will hurt docs just as much as if the CMs all went away imho, and it could even make the PvP situation worse with everyone going CM to counter CM which would only worsen the current "Poison wars" we are currently seeing.
It would only take one CM to counter another CM and with the ability to negate poisons much more prolific the "poison wars" as you put it will be a thing of the past. Why would you really want to go into a profession to poison/disease when it can be countered by TWO classes instead of one. One of which you know is too busy either running missions or buffing at a starport (lazy doctors dont have rez or wound packs half the time).
I'll take it as a bad example especially the "master medic" part. Yes doctors are needed on the battlefield. They are still the only ones who can revive and suppress fire as well as cure states (carbineer area states can suck) but they still should not have the main role in a PvP battle as the primary medical support. Even after area cures are implemented you'll still have plenty of combat viability not to mention you can master ANY elite class you want and still hold master doc.
While I will agree that the CM description does infer this, the actual skills alloted between the two professions would speak otherwise. Docs are NEEDED on the PvP battlefield as it stands and I'm sure there are MANY players who do NOT want to see that change. Primarily us docs, and if we are to be "in the rear curing permanent damage that is done to a player" then the profession isn't worth playing imo. The most fun I have is dragging incap or dead players in the thick of battle, dodging laser bolts, and resuscitating or curing/healing them. Hell, I even buff resuscitated players in battle as it adds another challenge. Let the Master Medics sit in the rear to heal wounds.
- How do YOU see Innoculations being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
Innoculations should be applyable Outside of Combat In a Medical Center. (NO DROIDS) inwhich the time limit = to that of Dr Buffs. But ONLY Master DR or CM should get that ability.- Make it so that you wont have a dabbler in either profession
- How do YOU see the Area Cures being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
Mix the needed Componets to that of current DR cures, but also throw in the Needed Componets that are used in CM Area heals/attacks -aluminum or copper needed
Have it like the Cures/posions now, each branch will get a better Grade Cure
- And finally... Why should WE get any of it over Docs? Any Area Cures Shoudl go to the CM for thats the specialty of being a CM, getting Ranged and Area attacks /cures
Brainplay wrote:
-shadow-talon- wrote:I'll take it as a bad example especially the "master medic" part. Yes doctors are needed on the battlefield. They are still the only ones who can revive and suppress fire as well as cure states (carbineer area states can suck) but they still should not have the main role in a PvP battle as the primary medical support. Even after area cures are implemented you'll still have plenty of combat viability not to mention you can master ANY elite class you want and still hold master doc.You bring up excellent points, and I don't altogether disagree with them, however giving CMs the /curepoison and /curedisease abilities will hurt docs just as much as if the CMs all went away imho, and it could even make the PvP situation worse with everyone going CM to counter CM which would only worsen the current "Poison wars" we are currently seeing.
It would only take one CM to counter another CM and with the ability to negate poisons much more prolific the "poison wars" as you put it will be a thing of the past. Why would you really want to go into a profession to poison/disease when it can be countered by TWO classes instead of one.
You make a valid point, yet I don't want CMs to go away. Your example of two classes being able to counter them makes them less useful than if docs were the only ones with the ability to /curepoison and /curedisease. I really don't see the devs removing this ability from Docs and I truly have a hard time seeing them granting CM these two abilities as it is one of the attractions of being a doc, whereas area heals and poison/disease is yours. I know that that the precedent lies with CMs for Ranged and Area Heals, but even the area heals are Ranged. I saw a great suggestion on the Doc forum that Docs get an "immediate area AoE cure", meaning a radius from where the doc is standing, not a ranged throw with an AE like you have now. The thing that makes you a combat medic IMO is the "Range". Nothing says a doc can't have a mister or something that folks in his immediate vicinity inhale.One of which you know is too busy either running missions or buffing at a starport (lazy doctors dont have rez or wound packs half the time).
I will take THIS as a bad example. A small percentage of docs on any given server are out buffing for cash. Most of the docs I know are on the forefront of battle, resuscitating, healing states/damage/bleeds and curing the nastiness you folks concoct.While I will agree that the CM description does infer this, the actual skills alloted between the two professions would speak otherwise. Docs are NEEDED on the PvP battlefield as it stands and I'm sure there are MANY players who do NOT want to see that change. Primarily us docs, and if we are to be "in the rear curing permanent damage that is done to a player" then the profession isn't worth playing imo. The most fun I have is dragging incap or dead players in the thick of battle, dodging laser bolts, and resuscitating or curing/healing them. Hell, I even buff resuscitated players in battle as it adds another challenge. Let the Master Medics sit in the rear to heal wounds.
Why a bad example? (Yes I was being sarcastic about the master medics). You state yourself that Docs are needed on the battlefield for the exact reasons I was saying I like being on the battlefield.
As to the point of innoculations, once again I don't see them as being CM oriented. They fall more into line with a)Our current ability as docs to cure these items and b)They are similar to buffs as a pre-battle measure. As for requiring a CM in your group causing there to be more "strategy", isn't that how it's currently supposed to be with docs? How/why should area cures and innoculations change this? imho "Balance" infers one class being able to counter another, not that you need two of the same class to duke it out.
Dr. Grim
Brainplay wrote:
-shadow-talon- wrote:You bring up excellent points, and I don't altogether disagree with them, however giving CMs the /curepoison and /curedisease abilities will hurt docs just as much as if the CMs all went away imho, and it could even make the PvP situation worse with everyone going CM to counter CM which would only worsen the current "Poison wars" we are currently seeing.
It would only take one CM to counter another CM and with the ability to negate poisons much more prolific the "poison wars" as you put it will be a thing of the past. Why would you really want to go into a profession to poison/disease when it can be countered by TWO classes instead of one. One of which you know is too busy either running missions or buffing at a starport (lazy doctors dont have rez or wound packs half the time).I'll take it as a bad example especially the "master medic" part. Yes doctors are needed on the battlefield. They are still the only ones who can revive and suppress fire as well as cure states (carbineer area states can suck) but they still should not have the main role in a PvP battle as the primary medical support. Even after area cures are implemented you'll still have plenty of combat viability not to mention you can master ANY elite class you want and still hold master doc.While I will agree that the CM description does infer this, the actual skills alloted between the two professions would speak otherwise. Docs are NEEDED on the PvP battlefield as it stands and I'm sure there are MANY players who do NOT want to see that change. Primarily us docs, and if we are to be "in the rear curing permanent damage that is done to a player" then the profession isn't worth playing imo. The most fun I have is dragging incap or dead players in the thick of battle, dodging laser bolts, and resuscitating or curing/healing them. Hell, I even buff resuscitated players in battle as it adds another challenge. Let the Master Medics sit in the rear to heal wounds.
Like one other poster mentioned, Doctors are the MOST relied on profession in this game for both PvP and PvE. Giving them innoculations just increases the reliance on a single profession which evenincreases Combat Medic's reliance on them!Area cures in the hands of a CM would effectively negate their own ability to turn the tide of a battle but instead would call for tactical usage. Throw right away? Wait till the opponent CM's are down? etc. This is strategy, its makes it a challenge, and having more than one CM would kill the "queen" arguement right away. Yes this would mean you would have to come prepared with a CM(s) of your own. Yes, this means you would have to actually have to plan something for it to work. Yes, this would increase the need for grouping and working as a team in a game where soloing is the norm instead of exceptional.
Like I said as well... Doctors aren't relied on, the buffs are. There was a time when bringing a Doctor on a hunt was practically required, but our buffs were our own demise. Now we have a bunch of get-rich-quick scheme whores diluting our profession. Let's assume for a minute that buffs are brought down in strength [pretty safe bet considering it's going to happen and all]... our "cash crop" [which, btw, is not all that spectacular, there are faster and more entertaining ways to make credits] will fall out from underneath us. Not only will be useless on the field when this happens, we'll have less ability to make money.
It's funny how you say CMs feel useless, b/c I still see alot of CMs running around, winning the battle for their team with they're poisons. Sure, a Doc can heal a poison in one cure, but how often have you seen it happen? Not to mention it's a single, 6m range cure. CMs can area poison much faster than a Doc can heal it. I don't mean to be rude, but anyone that tries to tell me or any other long-time/experienced Doctor that we are the most relied on profession can turn that around and stick it, b/c that is simply not true.
Like I said before, I don't want area heals on my Doc, it doesn't fit with the profession image and it would simply not be fair to CMs, who ARE supposed to be the cream of the crop in combat healing. Giving CMs area poison/disease heals fits perfectly and introduces new strategies with CMs. HOWEVER, it is common sense that Innoculations should go to Doctors, not CMs... but not until buffs have been nerfed. CMs having a "service" does not fit with the profession, nor do Innoculations. Anyone with the ability to look beyond their own profession can easily see this.
And as for Innocs, they should be at Master Doc only, and if for some reason the Devs see reason to give it to CMs who are not clinical healers, they should only be craftable by Doctors... and the idea of using CM components to do it isn't bad either, makes sense.
How do YOU see Innoculations being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
Should be crafted and used by docs, but require resilience compounds (for example, or at least one CM component). The skill used to apply them should be high up in the doctor tree, though maybe not at master.
The should last 10-15 minutes maybe, NOT as long as ordinary doctor buffs, and should give a certain % chance to resist poison/disease. They should NOT give complete immunity. They shouldn't reduce the damage done by poison, as the DoT is too easily negated by regenerative stat buffs.
How do YOU see the Area Cures being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
Crafted by CMs, should require one or two doc components. They should be the equivalent of a cure poison/disease A pack, but in an area. Used by CMs, and should be fairly high CM med use(70-75).
And finally... Why should WE get any of it over Docs?
Because people want us to be combat MEDICS instead of COMBAT medics. Right now doctors are the true combat MEDICS. Give us some form of medicine that is actually useful in combat if you want us to be support medics.
If anyone says "you have ranged stims" I'm going to scream. Stims aren't worth anything in the mind-oriented combat of SWG. Period.
How do YOU see Innoculations being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
Components - ABEC's and a poison/disease of the same type as the Innoculation. Example being a mind poison would be usedas a component formind poison innoculations.
Craft -Doctor crafted
Resource Requirements - Fungus, Flowers, Chemical (I don't see this as being a big issue it can really be anything they want as long as it is a specific type of resource)
Level Attained - MASTER only one strength not levels like buffs.
Effect - Reduces the effectiveness of the poison or disease. The amount it reduces the effectiveness could be based on the level of poison/disease used in the creation of the innoculation.
Duration - 20 - 40 minutes
How do YOU see the Area Cures being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
Components - ADM's, ABEC, ALS's
Craft - CM crafts final product.
Resources - Same as Single target cure packs
Level - MASTER
Effect - Same as regular cure A or Bpacks only area effect based on ADM's. They shouldNOT be as strong as the Cure C packs now. None of our area attacks or heals are as strong as our single target packs!
Duration - Same animation and time restraints as Poisons/Diseases
And finally... Why should WE get any of it over Docs?
Innoculations don't seem to be a combat related medic activity. This would typicaly be done before a battle or in a camp just outside of the battle not in the front lines. So it only makes sense that Docs would be the ones to get this. I STRONGLY believe somecomponent of the innoculation needs to come from the CM's though.
Area Cures - Simple CM's are the area/ranged specialists.
In that way inoculating will give doctors a brand new service and market, and it will give CMs a brand new market as well.
Just my 2 cents
Tinozza wrote:
I think that every kind of inoculation should use as a component a full pack of poison/disease (maybe more than 1 depending on the power of the pack). It does make sense to me to use the real Infecting Agent and not one of it's components.
In that way inoculating will give doctors a brand new service and market, and it will give CMs a brand new market as well.
Just my 2 cents
My thoughts exactly
1. How do YOU see Innoculations being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
I think they should slow the poison or disease down, and also maybe lessen their strength. There should be a limit on how many dot ticks they work for though or a certain time. No hours like that, they should be temporary I believe.
Definitly must use some combat medic component, we are too reliable on doctor crafting to make our area and ranged stims. There is currently no real market for a combat medic besides selling to other combat medics, a doctor can make good money providing buffs and sell stims.
This should be avaliable at a higher level tier, possibly Master Combat Medic. Dabblers shouldn't be able to apply these atleast.
2. How do YOU see the Area Cures being implemented?(components? who crafts what? resource requirements? level attained? Effect? Duration?)
Area effects are a Combat Medic thing, on the other hand cures are a Doctor thing. This is tricky, but I do believe that this is something for the Combat Medic to add to the battle field. If the Doctor for some reason should recieve this, then a 6 m radius for the cure must be in effect. Area cures should include a Dispersal Mechanism in their schematic for the area effect.
One good idea for the area cures is to make them really lessen the strength or slow down the poison/disease until a doctor can cure it properly. This wouldn't step too much on the doctors toes in the curing field...
3. And finally... Why should WE get any of it over Docs?
Uh, didn't I answer thisalready? Combat Medics need something else to do on the battlefield besides poison/diseasing the opponents. They also need some source of regular income, crafting inoculations/area cures would be a good addition to that.