Combat Medic Archive

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jkray8472 wrote:
The reason people come up with scenarios like this is simple--these scenarios exist. You cannot claim that CM always outdamage people.

Please sit down and contemplate the fact that no one profession "pwns" all the time. There is no one "uber" template. You point out the situations at which a CM has a very high DPS. We point out a situation where CM has a very low DPS. You have to take in both of these scenarios to have an accurate picture of CM "dps."

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No one is saying that one professions owns another ALL the time. That isa problem here on these forums. People over generalize. Second its ok to point out both scenarios however lets be honest here and take a typical PVP battle. Here is what seems to be the majority of my contests. 5-10 imps invades anch were there are 5 or 6 rebs.. CM lobs his area poison on the group then takes off for a bit and comes back and lobs singles. The fight is effectively over in the first 30 seconds due to everyone trying to scuttle around and cure the poison. If you kill the CM, then he comes back immediatly and throws more before he is dead again if anyone is left. If the reb throws the poison and gets a non doc, that person is effectively out of the battle in short order. Its no good for anyone including the CM.

Now a lot of the CM community would like us to believe that the fault is either with the mind pool or gtef'ing. However, the shear fact that the CM sends most everyone in the group reeling to find a cure before the first couple of ticks hits is where thebalance problem is. You simply are mandated to have doc in your template or you are pretty much in serious trouble.

The DPS in these real and normal scenarios carries far more weight than the ones that never happen but are theoretcally possible.

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Morath360 wrote:

Now a lot of the CM community would like us to believe that the fault is either with the mind pool or gtef'ing. However, the shear fact that the CM sends most everyone in the group reeling to find a cure before the first couple of ticks hits is where thebalance problem is. You simply are mandated to have doc in your template or you are pretty much in serious trouble.

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Whether or not you want to admit it, you are proving the mind pool issue with that statement.Would everyone go reeling if their heal was poisined by a CM? When a well made Stim B keeps you in the game? A stim B cannot cure a health poison but it can fix 400+ damage of it.... faster then the poison can tick even with just novice medic.

hehe imagine all the janta enhanced stim Bs in the game if Stims fixed all the HAM.

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Mmaxx wrote:

Your debunking of the dps argument between CMs and Rifleman involves one profs aeo VS the other profs single.

Nope Im debunking a flawed argument that CM's use. It so happens thatthey use riflemen in their argument, therefore I used them as an example. And I'm comparing max mind damage dps, not single vs AOE attacks.

In order to better illustrate it you maximise the possible aoe effectat the same timeminimizing the single's effeciency (multiple targets for aeo effect vs single attack). To make it even more dramatic you remove all potential for minimizing the effects of the aoe then increase the resistances to the others (allow head armor for rifleman and no doc for these 100 goofs).

Again not AOE vs single, it's mind dps. My example provides a fine example of how much raw mind dps each profession is capable of in a solo situation.

You working towards a life in politics perhaps? definately not heading for a life of science.

It so happens that I am a computer programmer buddy. Your judgement call is unappreciated and pointless.

you are manipulating scenarioes to prove your point. You are not demonstrating equal tests to prove your point.

No, I stated a very specific argument and I gave a very specific scenario to prove that argument. I am not manipulating scenarios, I amproving that they are insignificant and extraneous in the current debate of whether or not the CM's argument is valid.

To properly measure dps have one master targetone individual with maximum resistances possible then again a separate target with no resistances possible. Repeat with the other master.

We've already established the fact that a master rifleman can usually do more mind damage to an individual than a CM.

to measure aoe dps have one master target a group with maximum resistances and then target another group with no resistances. Repeat this test with the other master. Measure the dps of each target group's aeo damage.

You cannot test max mind dps, which is my argument, accurately with both professions doing their AOE specials. Why would I test for something that has nothing to do with my argument?

In the examples above maximum protection against a MCM is a MDoc so no damage is done to the targets with the maximum protection. Maximum protection against a MRifleman would be moving defence stacker(s) fully buffed with the best possible armor and PSG. Some damage will get through on these test groups.

And if it was a MCM vs moving defense stacker(s), they get no additional protection from defense mods, armor, or psgs. You've proven what it takes to protect yourself against a master rifleman(stack defense, armor) and CM(doctor), and not who does maxMIND dps which is the debate at stake.

Minimum protection against a MCM is an unbuffed individual with no special clothing or attachments. This is also the minimum protected individual for the rifleman except the riflemans target would have to be standing stationary.Both masters will inflict serious damage to these tests groups.... but I beleive the MRifleman will incap these unprotected test subjects before the MCM takes them to +1.

You've just proven that a master rifleman will outdamage a CM to an INDIVIDUAL with no protection. Congrats, we've already established this.

Your "science" didn't prove anything against my so called "politics"

Jo'ran

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jkray8472 wrote:
The reason people come up with scenarios like this is simple--these scenarios exist. You cannot claim that CM always outdamage people.

You can also say that a novice marksman can do higher DPSthan a TKM if the TKM isn't close enough to hit anything.

Please sit down and contemplate the fact that no one profession "pwns" all the time.

Yes you can. It GENERALLY goes like this:

• With heavy armor:




• Mind Damage and Stun weapons




• Rifleman


• Fencer (scatter hit for mind)


• Poisons/Disease




• Combat Medic


• Someone with a DOT weapon (rare except pikes)


• Without heavy armor




• Mind damage




• Rifleman


• Swordsman


• TKM


• Poisons/Disease




• Combat medic


• Someone with a DOT weapon (rare except pikes)

There is no one "uber" template.

You are right, there are a lot. Just pick yourprofession above and combine them with each other and add some pistols if you decided to be a dodge template.

You point out the situations at which a CM has a very high DPS.

Right a generic scenario that allows for pure mathetical DPS calculations.

We point out a situation where CM has a very low DPS.

See the helpless TKM scenario. Your scenario is a minority.

You have to take in both of these scenarios to have an accurate picture of CM "dps."

An accurate picture ofDPS is the actual theoretical number when a profession can deal out his maximum potentialALONE with no restrictions. My scenario could give us a pretty close representation of this number, and a more typical one with restrictions (helmet). My argument is regarding MIND dps and how CM's are using an obviouslyflawed argument to defend their profession.

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Morath360 wrote:

Vort,

Yes, but his point is that DPS is relative and the current DPS calcs are flawed. Which they are. I fail to see how the fact that a poison does not incap is relevant. This is a DPS thread, not a who can incap who under what circumstances thread.

Brain,

As much as you would like to think that this profession needs to be left alone and that only the Mind bar is the problem,its not. The insane amount of damage would have similiar results on other bars. I know because I have done it. The mind is just the most efficient at the moment. You seem to think that a novice medic can keep up with the poisons without any problem. I have heard the argument on healing stims. Its simply not true. Especially if you add any kind of stacking. It still requires stacking to get to that level you are talking about and more specifically on one target. Doctor buffs already mitigate it and stimB's help it along even more. Yes you aren't the only one who's tried this and I can tell you straight off thatan individual can keep up with stacked poisons but that his offensive capability is shut down until he is cured. With area splash the offensive capability is reduced but still there. The MIND bar IS the problem as its so darn weak that even with with brandy and being a human a single target C is making good work of that bar. My arguement stands that when the MIND is fixed most of the issues against Combat Medics are going to dry up fast.Heck this might even promote grouping with someone other than a defense stacker for some form of support while camping a starport.

Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-16-2004 06:45 AM

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Mmaxx wrote:

Your debunking of the dps argument between CMs and Rifleman involves one profs aeo VS the other profs single. In order to better illustrate it you maximise the possible aoe effectat the same timeminimizing the single's effeciency (multiple targets for aeo effect vs single attack). To make it even more dramatic you remove all potential for minimizing the effects of the aoe then increase the resistances to the others (allow head armor for rifleman and no doc for these 100 goofs).

You working towards a life in politics perhaps? definately not heading for a life of science. you are manipulating scenarioes to prove your point. You are not demonstrating equal tests to prove your point.

To properly measure dps have one master targetone individual with maximum resistances possible then again a separate target with no resistances possible. Repeat with the other master. check the dps of all targets

to measure aoe dps have one master target a group with maximum resistances and then target another group with no resistances. Repeat this test with the other master. Measure the dps of each target group's aeo damage.

In the examples above maximum protection against a MCM is a MDoc so no damage is done to the targets with the maximum protection. Maximum protection against a MRifleman would be moving defence stacker(s) fully buffed with the best possible armor and PSG. Some damage will get through on these test groups.

Minimum protection against a MCM is an unbuffed individual with no special clothing or attachments. This is also the minimum protected individual for the rifleman except the riflemans target would have to be standing stationary. Both masters will inflict serious damage to these tests groups.... but I beleive the MRifleman will incap these unprotected test subjects before the MCM takes them to +1.

Jo'ran

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While your post is written with intelligence, you seem to miss that the "maximum" proctection against CM's is never the case on a heated battlefield where combatants are spread out. As a matter of fact the use of your experiment, while seemingly symmetric in its methodology, is grossly misrepresentative of an ideal test bed in reference to the "maximum CM protected" test.

In order to achieve instant heals for all players on the grid you would also need a doctor for every player on that grid.. or have every player on that gride be a doctor themselves.

While I think you blind yourself with your scientific approach, you fail to observe that:

(1) Counters to Riflemen [synthsteaks, brandy, entertainer buffs, armor] are incredibly easy to obtain

(2) Counters to Riflemen are also of superb and incredible reliablity and ease-of-use in real conditions

Becuase of this you must take the scientific approach to this and adjust your environmental test factors to this and give more weight to anti-rifleman counters than to "instantaneous" doctor cures.

Also realize that:

(1) It is unrealistic to expect more than 1 in 4 doctors in a combat team. Combat teams main composition is combatants. Doctors are support.

(2) Communication in SWG is poor. Typing for cures and waiting for your turn to be cured takes quite alot more time than an "instantaneous" cure should depict in these tests.

(3) Doctorcures are of low reliability on the battlefield due to lag, team separation, or doctor death. Rifleman counters work despite lag, despite how far you are away from team members, and despite how many of your team is dead. More experimental weight needs to be given to rifleman counters than to CM counters.

Also, vortexala's point that poisons don't incap is incredibly mute in relation to a discussion on DPS.This test should be run under realistic conditions.. and points of what could/should be as opposed to what is hold no weight. Furthermore this is a test of DPS, not incaps per second. The point is spliting hairs.

This test is to measure the DPS of pool-specific damage. Mmaxx, your approach, while seemingly intelligent because of it's clean symmetry of comparison, is not only ineffective at ascertaining avalid DPS test, but is grossly misaimed in that it creates result data that is unreasonable on common sense inspection.

So concluding, more weight should be given to anti-rifleman counters than to anti-CM counters.

Message Edited by Ternque01 on 07-18-2004 04:24 PM