Combat Medic Archive
Thread: Combat Medic Fixes!
SolSpur
Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:48 pm
#27
75% reduction will decimate our professions offence abilities. a 500 a tick poison is 50 damage a second. With a 75% reduction it will be 12.5 damage a second. This will leave CMs with usless poisons and diseases, usless heals (due to the fact everyone dies by mind damage), and a self wound inflicting limited use single target close range mind heal.
***
Havla is not being removed, folks. It'll still be around in-game and effect healing the same as it has been. The change is that a minimum timer is being placed on /applypoison and /applydisease abilities, a timer that Havla won't be able to lower.
Why not simply remove it. CMs were never ment to throw 1 per second and docs were never ment to cure 1 per second.
Aharzo
Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:55 pm
#28
Id Like to see a thread titled CM REVAMP and IDEAS:
Mind Heals: Great - eat too much mind.
Area Stimpacks : Pointless because mind is the only pool anyone cares about.
Ranged Stimpacks: Great for healing entertainers with
Lets see some real combat medicine , Area Extinguish Fire , Area Cure Poison , Area wound heal, Area mind heal. Now that is COMBAT medicine.
This is COMBAT MEDICINE Docs shouldnt be doing this in the field they should be ineffective at it they should be at the back of the field rebuffing etc.
SOE Take a long Look at those player lists ; LOOK HOW MANY HAVE QUIT SINCE THE JEDI PATCH!!!
I know personally that a lot of guildmembers and friends have left the game with that patch.
Jedi are a minority , Fix the other professions first and introduce what people suggest faster.
You heard the problems with this CM stuff ages ago but now jedi come along and moan its insta fix so dont tell us you dont have the time to introduce what we want(since you have no problems introducing a fix from a minority of players). Lets see some redevelopment thats real not a little fix here and then.
The Devs Answer by default: Wait for the combat rebalance
Why Didnt you get it right in the first place?
Mind Heals: Great - eat too much mind.
Area Stimpacks : Pointless because mind is the only pool anyone cares about.
Ranged Stimpacks: Great for healing entertainers with
Lets see some real combat medicine , Area Extinguish Fire , Area Cure Poison , Area wound heal, Area mind heal. Now that is COMBAT medicine.
This is COMBAT MEDICINE Docs shouldnt be doing this in the field they should be ineffective at it they should be at the back of the field rebuffing etc.
SOE Take a long Look at those player lists ; LOOK HOW MANY HAVE QUIT SINCE THE JEDI PATCH!!!
I know personally that a lot of guildmembers and friends have left the game with that patch.
Jedi are a minority , Fix the other professions first and introduce what people suggest faster.
You heard the problems with this CM stuff ages ago but now jedi come along and moan its insta fix so dont tell us you dont have the time to introduce what we want(since you have no problems introducing a fix from a minority of players). Lets see some redevelopment thats real not a little fix here and then.
The Devs Answer by default: Wait for the combat rebalance
Why Didnt you get it right in the first place?
Happymob
Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:02 pm
#29
Maxanto wrote:
Ok I was waiting for him to say "joke" but he never did.
Explain this to me and all the others who have been killed in pvp so many times by your professions, why should cm's not be affected by PVP (not pve) damage reduction?
Without going into dps calculations, it's very simple - if you reduce damage by 75% in PvP, the combat medic profession will be about as popular as squad leader. Not just the FOTMs will leave, but many of us who have been CMs from the start will leave. I got into combat medic (and doctor) because I like being the healer. But it's not worth 169 skill points to get area healing and poisons that natural regeneration can keep up with.
If you want to reduce our offense, look at alternative ways to do it. Remove single stat stacking. Add a poison mitigation spice. Make the current poison resist food more effective. But don't reduce damage by 75%.
Pahdbacca
Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:15 pm
#30
A few points/issues......
1) For some reason, healing stims do not go 2X the stim rating. Is this because of an earlier attempt at a fix? Or because it uses a different skill than the DoTs.
2) I do not want to see DoT range go below 64m at master level.
3) The Devs never said medical DoTs were balanced....they said damage output and stacking are working as intended. At the same time they said they were aware that poisons were being thrown beyond 64m and were looking into it. (A 75% pvp reductionwould cause non-loot drop single C poisons to to do around 170 damage every 10 seconds by a master......this is not acceptable)
4) I will re-install TC tonight and see what I can see with my MCM and report back to you guys what I find. If i remember correctly I have some poisons that are less than 48m rated, but they should be greater than 32 (I hope).
Barca
Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:26 pm
#31
SolSpur wrote:
Havla is not being removed, folks. It'll still be around in-game and effect healing the same as it has been. The change is that a minimum timer is being placed on /applypoison and /applydisease abilities, a timer that Havla won't be able to lower.
Why not simply remove it. CMs were never ment to throw 1 per second and docs were never ment to cure 1 per second.
If you cant have it, nobody can?
teeth0r
Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:26 pm
#32
(repost from In Testing forum)
Thunderheat, could you also get the Devs to spend time fixing the following bugs:
1. Poisons of the same type, but from packs with different serial numbers are stackable.
2. The poison timer does not reset when the poison is cured. So you get the following behavior:
- time +0sec: you are poisoned
- time +5sec: you cure
- time +8sec: you are poisoned again
- time +10sec: the second poison ticks on you, using the first poison's timer.
3. Warcry effect is not broken by poison/disease ticks, meaning you can be taking CM damage but unable to heal it.
4. Poisons and Disease dots do not show in the combat log, making it very misleading in a fight.
5. If Poison and Disease are stacked on the same stat, the player will get triple-incapped and die, taking decay on their equipment - this is really unfair and unnecessary.
Please get thesefive bugs fixed while the developers are looking at this code, theywill make a big difference to PVP.
jfang
Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:46 pm
#33
teeth0r wrote:
2. The poison timer does not reset when the poison is cured. So you get the following behavior:
- time +0sec: you are poisoned
- time +5sec: you cure
- time +8sec: you are poisoned again
- time +10sec: the second poison ticks on you, using the first poison's timer.
Can you confirm this behavior with a test. Not a "everybody knows" statement, or a "it happened in this battle" statement (as timing in live battle is very misleading, especially with lag), but an actual test run with a doctor and combat medic? And when you say "cure", I assume you mean this is a full cure of poisons and not just a partial cure?
If so, it sounds like there is a new bug to be /bug'd and reported. (Or at least more tests to run in regards to the behavior of poisons and diseases).
Oh, and congrats to the combat medic community. These fixes represent a significant reduction in power of combat medics (as they were bugged to be too powerful before), but there hasn't been any "l33t d00d" complaining or others whining about them. It's nice to see our promise of "we want to see this fixed as much as everybody else" statement wasn't just talk. 
Happymob
Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:48 pm
#34
teeth0r wrote:
(repost from In Testing forum)
Thunderheat, could you also get the Devs to spend time fixing the following bugs:
1. Poisons of the same type, but from packs with different serial numbers are stackable.
If they can fix this, I'd be all for it. I suspect that they track based on serial numbers as a way to allow multiple CMs to poison the same pool. Which makes me wonder - will 2 CMs throwing poisons with the same serial number stack? Do other dots operate the same way (in other words, can I stack a /mindshot1 from a jawa ion rifle with a /mindshot2 from a T-21)? From an earlier patch, they clearly didn't want dots against a single pool to stack from a single player. Perhaps they need to begin tracking based on player instead of serial number.
2. The poison timer does not reset when the poison is cured. So you get the following behavior:
- time +0sec: you are poisoned
- time +5sec: you cure
- time +8sec: you are poisoned again
- time +10sec: the second poison ticks on you, using the first poison's timer.
I haven't confirmed this (unfortunately my doc and CM are the same player - perhaps I could test with dot weapons against my doc), but if true, this absolutely should be fixed. Makes curing kind of pointless.
3. Warcry effect is not broken by poison/disease ticks, meaning you can be taking CM damage but unable to heal it.
Agreed. If I poison you, then warcry you, you shouldn't be able to cure yourself before the first tick (or the warcry wears off), but absolutely, the tick should be treated just like a shot and break the warcry.
4. Poisons and Disease dots do not show in the combat log, making it very misleading in a fight.
Pretty please fix this. Then people would know that poisons tick in 10 and diseases tick in 40. While you're at it, show the poison damage, both during ticks and when it's applied. That way the target knows how strong of a poison they are dealing with and can take appropriate action.
5. If Poison and Disease are stacked on the same stat, the player will get triple-incapped and die, taking decay on their equipment - this is really unfair and unnecessary.
And also not the devs intent. The great dot fix/nerf was supposed to prevent incaps, but commando dots (which do damage and wounds) quickly showed how to workaround this. If they fixed this, a single CM could never kill a large group via triple-incap, merely reduce everyone to +1 (potentially with a load of wounds). The CM would need to either be alive (or have help) to finish off the enemies wile they are at +1. That would be a good thing, in my opinion.
teeth0r
Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:10 pm
#35
jfang wrote:
Can you confirm this behavior with a test. Not a "everybody knows" statement, or a "it happened in this battle" statement (as timing in live battle is very misleading, especially with lag), but an actual test run with a doctor and combat medic? And when you say "cure", I assume you mean this is a full cure of poisons and not just a partial cure?
I have confirmed it for myself.. it has been known to the CM community (or rather the 'eleet' CM community, who would never discuss these bugs openly here because they want to use them) for weeks. Go test it yourself. With the right macro timings you can throw say 10 poisons, the doc can hit cure after each, but still be hit with 9 ticks of poison. I would hope that at very least your Correspondent knows about them already.
Farenheit
Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:23 pm
#36
Happymob wrote:
The fixes will calm the linch mob but I had expected the devs put more thought into this
Unfortunately, no. If you read TH's thread, basically everyone is coming out asking for more. Some potentially reasonable (remove multi-stacking on a single stat) and some completely unreasonable (75% damage reduction). Why is this completely unreasonable? Every other profession suffers this in pvp, why should cm's not? You hit pvp players the same as you do npc's, ALL OTHER PROFFESSIONS DONT. Cm's should fall in line with ALL OTHERS in this aspect.
Overall, I like this. But the devil is in the details.
Happymob
Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:49 pm
#37
Farenheit wrote:
Happymob wrote:
The fixes will calm the linch mob but I had expected the devs put more thought into this
Unfortunately, no. If you read TH's thread, basically everyone is coming out asking for more. Some potentially reasonable (remove multi-stacking on a single stat) and some completely unreasonable (75% damage reduction). Why is this completely unreasonable? Every other profession suffers this in pvp, why should cm's not? You hit pvp players the same as you do npc's, ALL OTHER PROFFESSIONS DONT. Cm's should fall in line with ALL OTHERS in this aspect.
Overall, I like this. But the devil is in the details.
From the point of view of "fairness", I would agree with you. Since most damage got a 75% reduction, then poisons and healing should also get a 75% reduction (exempting healing merely benefits ind damagers at the expense of health and action damagers). But "fair" isn't always balanced. If a particular change changes combat medic from the one of the4 most popular PvP professions (I suspect that there are morerifleman, fencers,and TKMs who PvP than CMs and probably several other professions, but I could be wrong) into one of the least favorite PvP professions (like squad leader currently is), then you no longer have balance.
Look at it this way - very early in the game, creature handler was clearly unbalanced. You literally had bounty hunters spending 6 skill points to get novice creature handler so they could run around with 3 rancors. The devs introduced creature levels and reduced the number of creatuers that CH dabblers could control. Most people considered these changes good for the game. The number of FOTM CHs was reduced and some PvP balance was restored. Then the devs nerfed the creatures themselves so a single creature would get slaughtered in 10 seconds of PvP. Over the course of several nerfs, CHs went from being overpowered in PvP to relatively balanced in PvP to wildly underpowered in PvP. Now almost no serious PvPer is a creature handler. The devs overdid it. And in the process, they removed a potentially interesting element from PvP.
Combat medics are essential for a properly functioning PvP. Without them, pure defense stackers are the only viable PvP template (outside of jedi). Combat medics are the anti-defense stacker. I completely agree that combat medics, under the existing combat rules on live, are overpowered in PvP. But if you go too far with a nerf, you threaten to make us as rare as creature handlers. That ultimately may make for better PvP than you see today, but it's not the best possible system and it's not balanced. The long-term goal should be balance between classes and variety.
If you insist on maintaining "fairness", then by all means - increase our PvE poison damage and then apply the 75% PvP damage reduction. Now you have the potential for fairness and balance.
Or you can fix the bugs and tweak the defenses and still end up with a balanced system.
Majin-Frag
Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:02 pm
#38
Happymob wrote:
CHs went from being overpowered in PvP to relatively balanced in PvP to wildly underpowered in PvP. Now almost no serious PvPer is a creature handler. The devs overdid it. And in the process, they removed a potentially interesting element from PvP.
This is Star Wars, not Pokemon wars. Melee characters should barely have a place in this game, let alone creature handlers.
D3st0r
Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:09 pm
#39
From what I understood, Havla was put in-game to give Doctors more of an edge to balance them out vs CMs with Area Poisons, then docs can cure every second before the CM has the chance to throw more. Am I wrong in assuming that this was the way it was intended to work? The only thing that wasnt intended was CMs being able to use it to spam poisons.
