Combat Medic Archive

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True, a CM can typically hit 3-5 or more people with an AOE attack, but those 3-5 people, and all their friends can also reduce that CM to a smoldering pile of goo before he throws again, and also get their poison cured before the first tick, certainly before the second.

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Message Edited by Seph_Iroth on 07-16-2004 07:56 AM

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Brainplay wrote:

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Nanuu wrote:

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Rikilii wrote:

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Nanuu wrote:

-You are arguing from a 1 to 1 perspective. Indeed a masterriflemancan out damage a MCMin a one on one fight. Well, the problem with the argument lies in that a MCM will poison EVERYONE within their area of effect while a Master rifleman can only focus on one person at a time.

True, a CM can typically hit 3-5 or more people with an AOE attack, but those 3-5 people, and all their friends can also reduce that CM to a smoldering pile of goo before he throws again, and also get their poison cured before the first tick, certainly before the second.

Well in this wonderful world of SWG everyone is a CM, and many of those are CM/Rifleman. CM is a combat SUPPORT profession anyways. 3-5 people is an understatement in large scale pvp.

Many of those are riflemen since the other ranged professions cant stand up to any other melee class other than riflemen in PvP. Large scale PvP is still affected by the same modifiers of other classes that you are argueing here.

I agree. The combat revamp will solve a lot of these problems. Im just saying that MCM can't say that other classes out damage them in DPS.

-A master rifleman can only attack their ONE target when they are in range and visible. MCM's only need to apply the poison once and move on....the damage continues on the player no matter what. (Do not try to argue this with a mind bleed...they are useless and uncomparable).

A single rifleman can use an AOE attack with a looted DOT rifle. A single CM is highly unlikely to survive the act of applying poison to someone if that person is on the ball.

If you read the argument I am debunking carefully, you would have seen I was referring to mind dps. Therefore, no rifleman has no AOE mind attack. Looted weapons are part of every combat class and should not be taken into consideration when comparing class features.

Actually you didn't mention MIND dps until the very end of your post and no where else and what does that matter?

Look at the very top where I quoted a typical CM argument "Rifleman (or other mind hitting classes) have a higher MIND DPS than us, so why are people complaining about us" This was indeed the point of my post.

You cant argue against any one certain pool

Yeah you're right, mind was just the example I used since its the only one that really matters right now in the game.

just becauseno other class has an area attack against it.

This has nothing to do with my argument. But you just raised a valid point on the debate against CM's: Why isn't there an area poison/disease heal. I won't discuss that here though, thats a different thread.

Strafeshot2 is the most powerful attack riflemen have but because it doesn't attack the MIND it isn't used in PvP against buffed players.When the MIND is revamped you will see StrafeShot2 used alot more.

Irrelevant in this discussion, but I agree.

The looted weapons are still weapons that are bought or found. I still have to buy a T21 if I dont like using the cdef rifle I got when I started my character.

These loot weapons still are not part of a class feature. Rifleman, carbineers...whoever, are not poison dealers. MCM's are. Loot weapons are just a special case scenario that RARELY come up in every combat class (cept of course the not so rare dot pikes), it's a standard issue with MCM's which is why it needs to be looked at.

-A MCM can stack these poisons thus multiplying their DPS. I heard that up to 6 poisons/diseases can be stacked? Correct me if Im wrong. No sir you are correct

A single CM is highly unlikely to survive long enough to apply multiple DOTs to the same target, unless that target has his head up his a$$.

A) thats not the point, I am talking about DPS and nothing else.

Yup and you're being selective about it too. It ranks up there with fundamentalism....

Im being selective about DPS because that is what the post is about.

B) CM's don't have a problem surviving on my server...because everyone is one!!

Hey so sorry that's a problem. But dont worry, with the changes coming, area cures, and innoculations you'll see alot of those no skill FoTM dabblers dropping CM like a hot knife and going back to being TK/fencer/riflemen.

Ok so you do recognize that CM's are a problem. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

-Poisons and diseases ignore all armor and defenses unlike other mind hitting classes.

The DOT on a lootable DOT weapon ignores armor. There are other defenses to DOTs, such as Dr. cures.

Again, loot weapons are not part of a classes standard features.

Thats not a basis for ignoring it in this equation. Its a supplemental damage type that they dont have to spend all of the skill points we do just to use it. Stone knives have some of the best DoT's and they are novice brawler level. I have to master at least one full profession, a ranged support tree, and a novice profession just to match those stone knives.

See above.

With all these counter-arguments in place, lets create a scenario.

You have 100 mind buffed players all standing in a grid, not moving. Who do you think will take out the 100 players quicker? The MRM or MCM? Take the same scenario, and make the players defense stackers with uber helmets....

Despite the fact that these 100 players are total idiots for standing still in a "grid",t he answer is neither. Both the MRM and the MCM will end up dead before taking out a single one of the 100 opponents. The difference is, the MCM is highly unlikely to even do damage to the 100 players if they have a reasonable proportion of doctors among them

Sigh.....D-P-S is the argument I am making here....Read and pay attention to the topic of debate (Sometimes reading the message subject helps)

Actually the rifleman will. The cone attack on strafeshot2 extends from the muzzle to the full 64m. The cone effect is VERY large. Add to the fact that the rifleman is already shooting once per every 2 seconds without any speed tapes and at the 1 second speed cap with those speed tapes. Defense stackers lose their defense advantages the second a stun hits them which comes from startleshot2 which is paired with Fushingshot2 (both area cone attacks) for 2nd place in damage. Now you WERE talking about DPS here right? So MIND damage DOES NOT MATTER in your arguement. Incapping and killing someone is a completely different subject. Landing just ONE full hit from any of those attack equats to a higher DPS than a single or area poison by themselves. Stacking them will eventually push the mark over but that takes alot of stacking and alot of time to do.

Read the agument I am debating above again...I am arguing pool specific damage, namely mind. Anyways, if strafe was comparable to area poisons and diseases, they would be using it...it's just not effective to be used as a pvp (as a tool for hitting multiple players). Maybe when revamp hits, it will be.

DPS argument debunked. MCM out damages any mind hitting class. Wow so you finally realized that the MIND is a major fault in the game mechanics.

.......nope just refuting a commonargument that MCM's try to use in their defense. Who doesn't knowmind is a problem.

Instead of saying, "hey there's this is an issue that needs to be addressed" you are whining about MIND dps. Good job...

The game is borked in many ways......MCM just takes the issues that are borked and make it worse. Keep on chucking the poisons pal.

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P.s.- Wanna know the big difference between a rifleman and a Combat Medic. The number of riflemen increases the amount of potential dps with each addition to the group. The number of Combat Medics has no effect on this and the dps stays the same.

Good point. But once the DPS get's to a certain limit, anythign more is relatively trivial. You're dead by the time it really makes a difference. CM's achieve that limit much quicker, ALONE. 5 combat medics > 5 rifleman in large scalePVP. Besides there are a lot of advantages besides just raw DPS, it's the fact that DPS happens anytime, anywhere once you are poisoned. By the way, I'm not defending Rifleman....even though their only problem is just the generic problems of mind damge and stun.

p.p.s- Teras Kasi is a martial art and never were the watcher of the jedi. Even according to the ONE and only ONE reference made to that (which comes from a constantly refuted SW source) acknowledges that a single community/people took up the martial art and chose to call themselves the watchers. They failed miserbly didn't they.

Did I ever say they were?? lol you just like arguing with people don't you. I thought we were having reasonable debate here....Now you're just being an a55 by trying to attack me personally. This thread is closed.

Message Edited by Brainplay on 07-16-2004 06:22 AM

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Message Edited by Nanuu on 07-16-2004 08:48 AM

Message Edited by Nanuu on 07-16-2004 08:38 AM

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vortexala wrote:

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Morath360 wrote:

Vort,

Yes, but his point is that DPS is relative and the current DPS calcs are flawed. Which they are. I fail to see how the fact that a poison does not incap is relevant. This is a DPS thread, not a who can incap who under what circumstances thread.

Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-16-2004 06:45 AM

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Actually, if you read his post and look at the scenario HE presented, no-incap IS relative. He specifically asks who would take out whom quicker, and using poisons alone a CM would never take any of them out.

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Mmaxx wrote:

You can create a situation where a CM has a greater DPS then a MR.

You can also create a situation where a MR has a greater DPS thenCM..

Your example shows one attack against individuals with no resistance to that attack vs an attack on a group with high reistances to that attack.

If your group of 100 people standing on top of each other are new players with no combat abilities..... all newbies entertainers. with no buffs and no mind healing abilities. Are you sure the MCM would have a greater dps then the MR? This example is not something we would ever see in the game but it would be a good measure of dps.

I don't know.... the MR area attack on those unprocted newbs would be pretty devastating. The MCM might come out on top in this one but what if that newb group consisted of 5? how about 10? even 15? I'm pretty sure the MR would have them all dead before 2 ticks took place.

The main point you are making whether you mean to or not is that the mind is the attack of choice due to it's vulerable nature. If this peice of the game were adjusted then the CM forum would not have new people comming in every day telling us how much we suck...... well not as many as now anyway.

We all agree that the mind pool is the issue that needs addressing....Now if we could only get the nerf CM cryers to see that once the mind pool is not the vulerability that it is today, we will have a much more interesting game.

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Morath360 wrote:

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vortexala wrote:

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Morath360 wrote:

Vort,

Yes, but his point is that DPS is relative and the current DPS calcs are flawed. Which they are. I fail to see how the fact that a poison does not incap is relevant. This is a DPS thread, not a who can incap who under what circumstances thread.

Message Edited by Morath360 on 07-16-2004 06:45 AM

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Actually, if you read his post and look at the scenario HE presented, no-incap IS relative. He specifically asks who would take out whom quicker, and using poisons alone a CM would never take any of them out.

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Your splitting hairs here man. The point he is making is that the damage done by the CM is extremely high. You're trying to attack his argument by using a technicality when the argument he is really trying to make is about the overall damage done. Granted it may not have been the best argument, but I think we all know what he was trying to say.

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