Combat Medic Archive
Thread: How many of you plan to drop Combat Medic if 1hp poison goes live?
Ok well i see where some of your premises are different then mine
Premise 1 : >> generally when i talk about pvp im talking about out in the open.
Ok most pvp still happens in citys. Agree or disagree?
>>>the reason why is because you choose to go into a tight area like a med center, and you can choose not to go in there. if theres a guy standing by the door then dont go in, simple as that.
Okany ranged or mele class can 'go in' on the offensive and live. A CM can do this on the Offensive and cant hide in buildings on the defensive. So you have a plus for other range class and minus for CM. This goes directly against what you say later in that a CM is the best 'attacking' class. Agree or disagree?
>>oh lets see, also as far as "real life" or "in game" either/or works. im making that statement based on both rl
and what i think should happen in the game.
I think if you go back and forth using both types without being careful, you will be confused on what really matters. Also you will confuse it with what needs to be 'balanced'. I have seen you do that many times already. Conflating what needs to be 'balanced' with what need to be made more like 'real life'. I will accept both arguments but will label both accordingly.
>>as far as money yes that is an issue but not as large a one as i believe you are making it. when discussing balancing that should never come up, because frankly it doesnt matter unless a profession's costsare much higher than any others. everybody has costs (ie: probe droids etc.) in the game.
The money issue is a large one and yes CM have a way higher daily cost then the other combat classes. I spend between 5k to 15k a day on harvestor/factories and 30 min a day running around as an example. I also spend 30 min a day running around getting resources. How much do you think it costs a ranged class to be in one groupmission in pve VS 1 CM in a group mission in PvE. I would say it ends up costing a CM about 300 - 2000 credits for 1 decent group pve mission. I would say that this is 2-5 times more then a mele's costs (weapon use etc). Maybe what you are thinking is that there is nothing to spend the money on? I think shield generators and large homes are a good money sink.I usually observeBH with Huge homes and CMs with small shacks.
>>>as far as bh being the best pvper in a city this comes down to the range issue, because yes you can sneak around trees and buildings, but the fact that you have to do that puts you at a very large disadvantage anyway.
See above. most pvp is in cities.
>>>being able to hit from 80m in the open eliminates every single profession from pvp with the exception of bhs who "are the best close-quarter fighter." rifleman get the shaft, which are suppose to be the long range mind dealers, along with everybody else. even using the argument (which i dont agree with) that because you spent more points that you should be better than a rifleman doesnt mean youre suppose to neutralise him completely. if that was the case then bh (who would be considered the best pvper by the standard of skill points) should be able to take out large groups of elite classes singlehandly every single time, with no leeway for the other elite classes to win.
Like I said when CM is on offensive and in the open we agree. What about when CM is on the defensive in the open (you have already conceeded in cities they are weaker).
Riflemen have aoe dizzy. Which in conjuction with a any knockdown friend is *better* then poison in pvp for groups. Which leads me to another positive and negative for CM in group pvp
*CM in Group PvP dont stack with each other (Area Mind Cs from different CMs dont stack)*
Other ranged classes stack and indeed Riflemen aoe Dizzy and Carbineer charge 1 (and charge 2 when is fixed) is one of the/if not best group pvp tactic IMO. That is to say 1 master riflemen and 1 master carbineer are better then 2 CMS in group pvp. Agree/Disagree? Before you answer, have you gone up against this combo? Have you gone up against any group using their aoes? Let me know your experiences.
>>"1) you can outrange any class in the game."
>>frankly, what makes this worse is that youre attack is a mind attack, is quick (dont tell me its not quick, its much more potent and fast than any other bleed in the game - including flame which can be healed with stims by the way), is aoe, doesnt get affected by armor, hasnt had the 75% pvp reduction, and is very hard to cure (unlike bleeds - one first aid does it, with poison 2 c packs are traditionally required) makes poison way too powerful not to have somebody raise an eyebrow to it. nobody can dominate a group of elite classses, hell nobody even comes close, when compared to cm.
CM damage in general is not quick andCM AOE damage is not quick. Its slow compared to the AOE damage of any master ranged class, after PvP reduction and pitiful before PvP reduction. Why would you compare a Bleed with a Poison. You should compare total damage per second with abilities of one class versus the other.
And we dont have dizzy/knockdown or any defenses against such.
TK can cure a poison in about 4 seconds.
As far as dominate a group of elite classes, are you going to concede that a whole group of elites (mele) when fighting appropriately (in close quarters of a city) can defeat a CM fairly easily? Agree or disagree?
Let me ask you this, have you Seen any master TKs overt in a city yet? Just hanging in a corner or a building in tyrene or so, where you *have* to get close to fight them? Have you tried to go against one as a CM or any other ranged class? Are all your experiences in duels where u started 18 meters away from each other?
I TOLD them they should have made our spherical space station out of the same magnetically shielded walls as the garbage compactor! -Sleksheea to Nhilism:
**Ok most pvp still happens in citys. Agree or disagree?
yes but most imporant pvp happens outside the city (like defending a faction base or town). pvp in a city means nothing, considering theres a cloning booth right next to you. does it happen in cities? yes. does city pvp have anything at stake? no.
**Okany ranged or mele class can 'go in' on the offensive and live. A CM can do this on the Offensive and cant hide in buildings on the defensive. So you have a plus for other range class and minus for CM. This goes directly against what you say later in that a CM is the best 'attacking' class. Agree or disagree?
well see above. and i also disagree, because hiding in a building is not abenefit, its something youre forced to do. you hide in a building so you dont get attacked beyond your range. what im saying is a cm doesnt have to hide in a building to be very effective, they have the option to run around anywhere. if you stay in a building and dont come out youre not helping your group at all; when youre out in the open attacking then youre helping your group.
**I think if you go back and forth using both types without being careful, you will be confused on what really matters. Also you will confuse it with what needs to be 'balanced'. I have seen you do that many times already. Conflating what needs to be 'balanced' with what need to be made more like 'real life'. I will accept both arguments but will label both accordingly.
i believe i only commented on rl once, and regardless the argument is adressing two different issues: one that medics shouldnt be able to take out snipers etc., and second that balancing needs to be done within the parameters of the game mechanics. you can use it as a valid argument for both of them because theyre interchangeable, a medic shouldnt be a god at pvp because (insert rl here if yould like) so they need balancing. frankly, i dont think swg should be like rl, but somebody above asked why cant a medic kill a commando, and i said just look at rl, when whas the last timed a medic killed a group of elite soldiers - youre reading between the lines too much.
to the money issue:
i dont tend to think about money, because most people i know who are active in pvp dont worry about money. you see people spending millions of dollars on weapons and armor and youre worried about 10k a day.
**See above. most pvp is in cities.
i dont consider dueling important pvp. i could care less if you can kill 8 timed out of 10 on a duel; what i do care about is losing a faction base because everybody got aoe mind poisoned. just look at the pa battles, yeah theyre are city raids but those get old after 5 minutes - pvp that matters is out in the open.
**you have already conceeded in cities they are weaker"
weaker at killing groups? no. theyll just end up getting incapped like everybody else theyve poisoned because therer are fewer places to run.
**Riflemen have aoe dizzy. Which in conjuction with a any knockdown friend is *better* then poison in pvp for groups."
i get the impression youve never used 80m mind poisons on a group. rifle shots need to be in range, as in they can get hit. lobbing poison from 80m is way more effective that knockdown - lets see, guaranteed incap or kded for awhile with the chance of getting killed yourself. im suprised you even made this comparison.
**That is to say 1 master riflemen and 1 master carbineer are better then 2 CMS in group pvp."
yeah, except the rifleman and carbineer die (not to mention cm poisons are aoe and can take out about 10 people in 5 seconds. try mind bleeding 10 people, youre lucky to get 3 before you hit the floor) compared to you dont die- which is more effective?
**Before you answer, have you gone up against this combo? Have you gone up against any group using their aoes? Let me know your experiences."
yes im involved in base defences and pvp daily, and one cm can singlehandedly wipe out incredibly large groups of people in pvp. thats why im here.
**CM damage in general is not quick andCM AOE damage is not quick. Its slow compared to the AOE damage of any master ranged class, after PvP reduction and pitiful before PvP reduction. Why would you compare a Bleed with a Poison. You should compare total damage per second with abilities of one class versus the other."
it doesnt matter, because as soon as you hit that person he/she will incap. run away for 15 seconds, come back and everybodys on the ground. not to mention your 80m away. bleed and poison work the same ... why? because you dont have to be in range to constantly do damage, even if yourun into abuildingthat person is still getting the same dps as when you originally fired at him. in pvp people last seconds if they run into range, being out of range and being able to inflict a mind aoe poison is huge.
**TK can cure a poison in about 4 seconds."
except they have to sit down to do such, and they either sit down in the middle of combat and die or try to find a safe place and die from the poison.
**As far as dominate a group of elite classes, are you going to concede that a whole group of elites (mele) when fighting appropriately (in close quarters of a city) can defeat a CM fairly easily? Agree or disagree?"
any good elite wont fight close quarter in a city, theyll fight in the open where tactics are better used. hiding in a building gets you nowhere. in order to kill people who are in the open you have to be in the open, and yes the cm can then incap everysingle one of them. besides, if youre talking about in a tight area melee is the best. youve effectively thrown out ranged because they now no longer have an ideal place to fight (ie: in the open).
**Let me ask you this, have you Seen any master TKs overt in a city yet? Just hanging in a corner or a building in tyrene or so,a where you *have* to get close to fight them? Have you tried to go against one as a CM or any other ranged class? Are all your experiences in duels where u started 18 meters away from each other?"
you dont have to go into the building: wait for them to come out or ignore them. nobodys pressuring you to go in there, if theyre not attacking you then you dont have to attack them -theyre going to have to move eventually. and yes i duel but i dont think ive dueled one cm, all my experience comes with seeing them work both on my team and the other team in pa battles, city raids, and base defences.
youre trying to categorize pvp as being very close together. if that was the case then most pvpers would be tkas, but you rarely see pvp tkas. why do you think that over 90% of the combat professions are ranged? because pvp is about getting in, hitting, and getting out. its not about dogfighting in the middle of a cantina, because frankly, who the hell cares if you kill somebody in the cantina- theyre just going to clone anyway.
to Slek:
**I'm considering dropping if this goes live... I get a lot of kills while incapped. Might as well just take poison away all together... besides, all a 169 point combat medic is, is a really fancy stim dispenser, right? (sarcasim)"
stim dispensing is what medics do, they heal people in combat. medics are not killing machines.
Why would you need 2 CMs to compete against rifleman/carbineer? one CM is enough to spoil a raid. The AE of Poisons is much bigger than any weapons AE as well (I havent seen a 25+m AE from a weapon other then poison yet).
On the topic of street fighting. A CM has a huge advantage in city fight against all classes, besides melees. Drop poison, run around some corners and the only thing left to bother you is the occasional pet. Why in the nine hells would a BH have an advantage in a city? He needs a LOS not you. Pop around a corner, throw, wait those annoying 2s(If you're lucky, you'llmanage to pull back behind the corner and wait there), back behind the corner and the BH will drop like a stone. Why would a BH have an advantage in a city is beyond me.
On the TKA issue, we're already discussing this on another thread, I dont feel like repeating myself here.
I am really curious on the stats of your poison, nhilism. Could you post some stats, I really think this would help me understand your point of view.
And I gotta point out that a CM is probably the only combat class in the game atm that can heal dizzy for just 6 more skillpoints. This is one of the biggest advantages when battling BHs and TKAs.
Tranced and austrian:
I think we are getting lost from the arguments. Lets make some syllogisms so we know who is talking about what.
Heres my inductive argument
1) A pvp battle will probably happen in a city
2) A CM is at a disadvantage in a city
3) Therefore a CM is probably at a disadvantage in a pvp battle
This is a inductive logical argument so (3) follows *probably*. I think you should believe the things that are probably true. Inorder to escape (3) you must deny (1) or (2).
No one seems to deny (1). Tranced seems to deny that battles in cities don't count. I would say that people fight in cities because they think they do count. I can form trance's argument later.
Austrian seems to deny (2) His argument seems to be based mostly on his own(or someone elses)build, not a CM. His own biuld can cure dizzy (a doctors skill). Lets talk about a CM.
Austrian also seems to think that a CM can go in a building against someone with dizzy/kd combo, and live more then 5-10 seconds. I deny this. I think that a certain build can do this, or a CM with doctor buffs, but they are still going to die, regardless, even though that not what we are talking about (we are talking about a CM). I don't know what I can do to present the affirmative of this argument besides post logs a log of a CM with a composite helmet on with a muon gold, getting head hit by a TK, and how long it takes to die.
Heres any argument that seems to be put forth from austrian/trance
1) An oppenent shouldn't be able toattack out of range of another oppenent
2) A cm is an oppenent
3) Therefore a CM shouldn't be able to attack out of range of another opponent
I deny (1) and state that some opponentsmay have a smaller rangeas long as they are more powerful in that range. This is the case for a mele (smallest range) who has a higher dps/more defense then a ranged weapon (medium range) who has higher dps/more defense then a CM (max range).
Secondly, anyone can attack from a range of 80 meters (pets). And pets will be able to be, on command by a CH, poison and disease, so a pet can poison/disease from a range longer then a CM. And pets are impervious to mind damage as you can have a macro for follow-play-attack. So against riflemen being longest range.
1) A Chshould be able toattack from a range greater 64 meters
2) A CH is a player
3) A CH is not a riflemen
4) Therefore thereis at lease one player, that is not a riflemen, that should be able toattack from a range greater then 64 meters.
This is a *deductive* argument so that if (1) (2) and (3) are true, and (4) follows from 1-3) then (4) is necessarily the case. This is formed so that you have to deny (1) (I doubt u deny 2 or 3). Let me know if you deny (1). It's funny that Ch doesn't need LOS either to attack.
Then you argue that a Rifleman is at advantage in a city. Why would have a rifleman the advantage over a CM, if the CM uses the TKA strat. Hide inside the building wait till RM comes in, pop poison, hide in building.
LoS works for CMs in cities over all ranged combat classes. Why? I only have to press one button once to apply a poison, while every other class needs to MAINTAIN a LoS. I agree however that CHs shouldnt have 64+m range for pets, nor should they be able to send pets true walls and all other obstacles at their targets.
To break your argument down:
Statement 1) A TKA using a building to his advantage will beat a CM
Statement 2) A Rifleman is excellent in city fights (you didnt argument this statement in our other thread, but I think its easier to just discuss here than in three threads at once)
Statement 3) A CM is poor in City fights, because of Statement 1)
Statement 1 and 2 are a contradiction. First no LoS is an advantage for a TKA and then a disadvantage against a RM?
In city fights a CM will win vs any Ranged Combat Class. Why? because you can have the LoS work for you. Throw poison, hide behind corner and wait.
1) You only need to press one key one time to apply poison
2) Every other class short of CH, needs to maintain a LoS to continually harm you
3) LoS is an advantage for a CM, we only need it for a split second, everyone else needs it for a longer ammount of time.
And since your TKA in the examples you bring up runs around with 3k mind, why in the nine hells would someone PvP unbuffed when you can get those buffs for 5k a set. I said a CM has a chance to kill a TKA in a building, not that he will walk out alive everytime (unless with a build similar or close to mine). If you're talking PvP you're not talking bone armor , no buffs, spices or food..
The only argument you bring up why a CM is at disadvantage in a city is that TKA hiding behind a corner, which is a rather stupid example. If a TKA is hiding somewhere, DONT GO THERE, geesh.
with all due respect nhilism, of all the people ive talked about this with on the boards you make the least sense. being able to not fight effectively in buildings is one piece OF A MUCH LARGER PUZZLE. you need to look at the big picture.
and for gods sake, youre comparing poison to pets, what? might i remind you that if a pet dies than they stop doing damage, poison on the other hand doesnt die.
"The only argument you bring up why a CM is at disadvantage in a city is that TKA hiding behind a corner, which is a rather stupid example. If a TKA is hiding somewhere, DONT GO THERE, geesh."
austrian hit it on the head. you need to get out and pvp more nhilism if youre going to comment on it; dueling or fighting in a city is not what pvp is all about (theres a war, if theres nothing at stake than nobody will fight there - ie. cities - the major fighting happens in the open when something is at stake). even if a battle happens in a city, youre at a much larger advantage, you only have to haveLOS for one throw, unlike every other profession where in order to do sugh high dps you have to actually be attackable.
so like austrian said you only are at a disadvantage when fighting in a tight area (cantina or med center), but tka is gonna kill everybody anyway, ranged or cm dont have a chance (actually cm has the advantage over ranged, poison the other person once and youre both gonna end up on the ground, with the cm getting up first).
to Solarin:
sure you can cure yourself, but what about everybody else who just got poisoned from the aoe? there goes your whole group.
and yes LOS needs to be availalable for one throw only, you might have forgotten that in order to actually kill the cm you have to have an LOS on him, which means you will be poisoned, and subsequentally incapped even if the cmdoes die.
I want a delay to the damage a flamethrower does and a medicine that, if I use it right away, makes it so the flamethrower does no damage.
Oh, and then I want the flamethrower to never kill even if it does damage to somebody.
Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? So why is this happening to poison?
Austrian:
You hold quite a few premises that I don't. One of them is that CHs should be nerfed to a range of 64 meters. For some Real life reason (not a balance reason unless you hold that CH are good in pvp) you want riflemen to have the longest range. I think your vision for the game is different then most. I thinkthe vision (your real life examples/arguements of should and shouldnt be this way etc) get in the way of you making a case for balance.
As far as riflemen I givea MRMa great rating in any situation because they can target MIND and have a greater DPS then then anyone but a BH in targeting mind. They also have a ranged deathblow for pvp and can aoe dizzy which combined with someone that has KD is awesome, so they are great solo in city and in groups in city, on the offensive and defensive. Yes you can burst in to a riflemen, but a master riflemen can burst away from you too, and hits mind for 500 every couple of seconds, and has defense modifiers. So in groups and solo on offensive they are awesome on defense they are great.
Maybe what is confusing is my idea of on the 'defensive'. My idea of defensive isPlayerA knowing Player Bs loc (say in a catina or at the bank), and Player B not knowing Player A is coming. Now player B may see Player A at the last second, or not. Also you must take into account that when someone is bursting at you they are way closer then they look on Control M.
Is this where our confusion lies?
It seems to me that a CM on the defensive in a city will probably do about 60 damage per second to their opponents mind pool. So after 16 seconds they have probably done about 1200 damage to mind. Tell me what you think about this.
It seems to me that a Riflemen in a city with a T21 will shoot an opponent for about 500 damage a shot, every 2 to 4 seconds, given their speed bonus, accuracy bonus, defensive bonuses, and the opponent is wearing a composite helm, AND the opponent went outside and tried to hide. Tell me what you think about this
So a rilfemen on the defensive will do more damage per second then a CM will.For this reason mainly, I would say they arebetter in a city, not offensively, but defensively, in solo pvp, then a CM. If you don't agree with this let me know.
Here is my balance sheet on MCM versus MRM as we seem to be talking about balance and MRM lately, let me know what you disagree with on this (The CM grades are the same as before).
CM - Poor: Skill points (high amount) to be effective at PvP (master cm - 81 points left over)
CM - Average: Skill points (average amount) to be effective at PvE (support line maybe craft line)
CM - Poor: Downtime (must craft - cant just log in and have fun)
CM - Poor : Expense (expesive to gather resources and run and own a factoryat 50k)
CM - Poor: Cash making (cant solo pve well, cant sell crafted items well)
CM - Poor solo pve ability
CM - excellent group pve ability
CM - excellent solo pvp ability against 90% of classes great against other 10%
CM - excellent group pvp ability
RM- Excellment: Skill points (Low amount to master) to be effective at PvP (158 points left over)
RM- Excellent: Skill points (Low amount) to be effective at PvE (203 left over after getting conceal shot, which lets you shoot stuff without it attacking you)
RM- Excellent: Downtime (log in and fight)
RM-Good: Expenses (100k for composite 20k for llc 100k forT21 pistol u are set for months - if wookie no armor then its excellent)
RM- Excellent: Cash making (can solo lower level missions withT21 easily - also get money for doing bh missions)
RM- Excellent: Solo pve ability (conceal shot/mind shot run up and down hills )
RM-Great group pve ability (Has specials that attack random pool plus can dizzy if another has KD)
RM- Excellent solo pvp ability (target mind pool)
RM- Excellent group pvp ability (Target mind pool ranged db aoe dizzy)
What I would really think would be usefull, istranced version and an austrian version of a list like this. Let us your full pictures on balance.