Combat Medic Archive
Thread: So what are CMs going to gain to mitigate this nerf?
Gavvot wrote:
FYI, if healing isn't a defensive skill, I sure don't know what it is.
healing is defensive. medics heal. docs heal. combat medics heal.
that is not all docs and combat medics do, however. if it were, we would need only medics.
let's all get behind the plan to nerf all professions and consolidate it down to three professions with mutually exclusive abilities: fighters, healers, and crafters. it will be so much easier on the devs.
Gavvot wrote:
Bob_the_tomato wrote:
The official combat medic description:
"A healer who who also has some field training to increase his odds of survival in battle"
That's on page 75 of the new manual.
Indeed, apparently that is correct.
Even if very brief.
And, well, we all know how good manuals are.
look there
this is not a "fix," it is another profession crushing cop-out by inept developers submitting to a crowd of angst-ridden adolescent whiners.
Gavvot wrote:
neutrineaux wrote:
Gavvot wrote:
SolSpur wrote:
Granted, TKM can do a little more damage than CM in PvE
Do you seriously think tkm can do "a little" more damage then cms in pve?
A cm at best can do about 600 damage, once every 10 SECONDS
A tkm can do double every second.
Either you dont know anything about CMs and just mislead or your a troll. You decide.
Well, I'm TKM.
I know I can't do 600 dmg in 10 seconds in PvP.
Even against a non combat prof.
Do the math.
Assuming a TKM do 1K dmg per headhit 1 (truth is less but anyway).
PvP reduction, 250.
Basic kinetic resist most armor have :80%
After armor : 50.
So, even if the enemy has no dodge/counterattack/block, no toughness and no melee defense, the TKM still do less than 600 dmg every 10 seconds.
If, by any luck he can land a KD, for sure it'll increase his damage output.
But in PvP, that's once in a big while.
I didn't added the damage modifier depending of the weapon the enemy is wearing, so indeed damage can be a little higher against for exemple a rifleman if he decide to stand still and not move in front of a TKM...
And that's if the TKM is using a good damage sliced VK. Wich will cost him alot of HAM for every special.
Beside, most of the people think that TKM is THE ultimate damage dealer.
That is far from the truth.
The truth is the damage output of a TKM is one of his weakness.
The TKM job is tank.
His job is to pick and keep the aggro.
That's why he have high speed and accuracy.
As he's supposed to take alot of damage that's also why he does have pretty good defense.
And it's the same reason that his main advantage are states attacks.
That's why in PvP a TKM against an even partial doc that can heal states is toasted.
having hunted pve extensively with tkm, master fencer, & master swordsman, i can say that the damage dealt by them in pve is impressively more than what i can manage as a cm. way WAY more. it is even impressively more than i can manage as a master cm/master carbineer.
We're talking about PvP here.
This change only affect PvP.
Beside, if you want a proof that something had to be done because poison was not balanced, look at the difference of your effectiveness in PvE and PvP.
Gavvot wrote:
neutrineaux wrote:
Gavvot wrote:
Happymob wrote:
Gavvot wrote:
Do you think MDE worth 140 skill points?
I let this slide in the earlier post, butmaster droid engineer is not 140 skill points. It is 92 skill points, like every other artisan-based profession. Granted, they have a very heavy need for master artisan products, so most DEs go ahead and get master artisan as well (the 140 skill points), but there is a difference between a skill requirement and something that is "very nice to have". Chefs depend extremely heavilyon bio-engineers, but that hardly makes them a 213 skill point crafting profession.
For what it's worth, I think that droid engineers do get a raw deal on dependencies compared to the more lucrative weaponsmith and armorsmith.
As far as I know, BE tissue are very usefull to enhance food.
They are not required part of every single food a chef can make.
Without MA, a DE can do about MSE BOOM droids, and maybe a couple others droids.
He'll need novice DE for the MSE and Master DE for the detonation module.
MA is not something very nice to have for a DE, it's an unwritten requirement.
Take a look at the droid schematics before arguing on that...
And I'm not even talking about the need of some merchant skill to have a chance to sell something.
Message Edited by Gavvot on 07-30-2004 08:15 PM
you are confusing requirement with the need to find suppliers. it is not required. it is very handy. otherwise, get a master artisan partner. lord knows they need something to do besides build speeders.
When you need a couple of thousand Master Artisan every week even if your business is really really slow, that is not handy, that is required.
are you serious? get a dictionary, for pete's sake! required means without it you cannot be one. that is not the case. to make vehicle paint kits, you need droid storage modules. but droid engineer is not a requirement for artisan. it would be handy to have novice DE to make your own. duh.
Gavvot wrote:
neutrineaux wrote:
Gavvot wrote:
Make it so a CM could solo like a TKM in PvE by making poisons and disease more effective against NPCs and MOBs.
Hum, a DE use 140 Skill points, he doesn't own everything is PvP or PvE.
but, that's not a combat prof blablabla.
a SL use also alot of skill point and cannot solo anything.
a smuggler use alot of skill point, but he cannot own everything.
a ranger use...
a commando...
a BH...
...
...
Each profession has a role, and the role of CM is not to own everything. PvP or PvE.
Granted, TKM can do a little more damage than CM in PvE, but they cannot poison, they cannot heal their damage, they cannot heal their wounds, poison, disease in combat.
Yeah, they can heal some stuff, with meditate, not in combat, not possible when on fire, not possible when intimidated...
Each profession has a role.
Each profession has strengh and weakness.
And even if CM is partialy combat related, it is not an elite combat prof.
And it's shouldn't deal the same kind of damage as a full, and only combat profession.
ahem, cm is an elite and a hybrid profession, actually.*
we should not deal tons of damage? why not? it is an elite/hybrid profession which uses biological and chemical weapons. that is all about hurting a lot of people badly at the same time.
*elite = requires a master level in an entry profession
*hybrid = requires elements of two or more entry professions
You don't get the point.
I'm all for giving the damage output of other combat prof to CM.
Only for one counter part : They cannot heal at all.
Even if CM is a combat profession, it is not a pure damage dealing profession.
SL don't have uber damage dealing.
BH neither, they have some usefull stuff and their own Mission.
You get the picture?
A combat profession elite or hybrid or whatever you want is not only offense and defense.
There are more stuff out there, and eliminate them from the equation, of course CM damage output will looks like it sux badly, but guess what, that's normal, because a game is about balance, and to have balance, you have to take into account everything, not just DPS and defense.
first off, when was that ANYONE'S point? Give CM damage but remove healing? HAHAHA!
second, so now you admit to the combat component of combat medic. perhaps you are trainable after all. no, it is not a "pure damage dealing profession." neither is it a purely healing support profession. it is an elite medical profession, and a hybrid combat profession with chemical weapons. this change is not about balancing the damage from those weapons, it is about allowing essentially complete resistance to the weapon ever hitting to begin with, severely mitigating the effect when it rarely hits, and allowing healing of multiple effected targets simultaneously at a rate four times that of the weapon that produced the damage to begin with. that is not balance.
while you may like this from your personal, albiet narrow, perspective, it is not a fix, but a profession crushing change, costing the game yet another potentially fun aspect rather than fixing an actual problem.
BigLands wrote:
I understadn you're not happy - but let's be honest -CM's were historically radically overpowered in PvP.
(I'm a pistoleer/smuggler so I've been on the receiving end of CM several times and it was over the top)
Having said that, I do believe there needs to be a trade off between taking away so much and giving something back.
Might I suggest that you ask for one/several of the following:
Short duration ranged area state effects:
(Chemical weapon packs similar to modern CS gas)
Blind and/or Dizzy
Targetted / Area effect Debuff
If Doctors can buff, shouldn't the counter to that be debuffs from CMs?
A large debuff on a single target, a small debuff on an area of targets
Area effect State resists
Ranged packs that boost (say ranging from +5 atlow levels up to+20 at mastervs Dizzy, Blind, Stun etc for a short duration
The converse could also be an idea - Area effect State resist reduction packs - though that would require waaay more balancing.
these are all very cool ideas which would improve and diversify the role of combat medic. very nice.
but i am a bio terrorist. i want my weapons of mass destruction! and for weapons of mass destruction to actually BE weapons of mass destruction, they have to be potent and effective. most of us seem to agree that the venom-powered CM weapons are the main unbalancing factor. venom should be downgraded/capped/removed from the game, probably, for balance. and even though i do not own any venom, and i have been killed by it many times, i would still hate to see it gone. maybe they could just make it extremely rare....
Gavvot wrote:
We are only capable of that thanks to armor and chef defense foods. Fix thoses and that solves a big issue. Not to mention I use up more points as a CM than any "elite" profession and I still cant come close to equaling them in PvE.
You are capable of much more, you just don't care.
??
Yeah too bad healing can be taken care of by a novice medic, is not a major issue, is rarely needed except for high end PvE.
Yeah, a novice medic can heal a whole group that take 1k damage after armor in each hit...
not if group members are novice medics, as is quite often the case. novice medic + good stim b's and you will not need CM except for mind heals. try it, you'll like it.
We're also not a pure healing profession either. Like the devs and the book says, we're both and we choose how we want to play it yet it more beneficial to poison/disease since there is large lack of healing needed in this game. The only MMO, board game, card game, or any other type of combat oriented game where there is a lack of healing and a dedicated healer.
Well, welcome to the real world.
When a profession is hybrid, meaning they can do 2 different and usefull things, usually, specific profession in one of the field is much better than them.
Guess why?
Because they do not have the other part.
CM is THE ONLY chemical warfare profession. we have ALL the parts. have you heard of chemical weapons? do you think soldiers fear bullets or nerve gas more?
and again, we are an elite and a hybrid profession, not just a hybrid. the hybrid part has to do with ranged abilities, not the pharmocolgy of medicine or poison. for those, we are elite, and we should be able to deal out awesome, mind-numbing, heart-pounding, sock-melting punishment to large groups from long range. the effect of the poison/dz needs attention, not the way the profession functions.
No they are the only profession who's sole purpose is to augment a group. That definition is stated in the book and by the devs. Currently their support ability suxxors and need alot of fixing.
No, they are not the only profession who's sole purpose is to augment a group.
CM is too.
And their support ability is great.
while we are there to support, clearly we are not fully equipped to provide battlefield support, as evidenced by the lack of state heals, poison antidotes, fire heals, etc., that any medic should be able to apply on the battlefield. and clearly we are not a support-only profession. otherwise there would be no poison in the game at all.
Since when is this game or these changes about balance? It just made the Doctor profession the most relied upon profession on and off the battlefield. Now I will have to either go doctor or join the commando/ranger/squad leader ranks and wait till next year's (or so they keep saying) revamp before I become a viable combat AND medical support profession.
This change is about balance because CM poison disease is not balanced in PvP.
You can deny it if you want, lots of people will laugh at you, but that's your call.
Don't get me wrong, for me Doc is currently the most imbalanced profession in the game (way before CM).
And I don't like the way they treated this balance issue.
But something had to be done, and be made quickly, so that's what we have.
you have said elsewhere that you thought this was good. now you don't like the way the issue is treated. maybe you are making progress. yes, some poisons do rediculous damage. that is not a reason to render poison essentially useless.
If you want a trade off, the best idea I've seen so far is the debuff idea.
Ask for a buff that lower stats value for a short period of time.
Max it at 500, and allow them to stack.
More tactical moves for everyone.
Or, make it % based and maxed at 30% of the stat.
This way it'll be also very usefull in PvE.
The problem is that like those new stuff, it's only a temporary fix that would have to be removed when buff are tweaked.
Message Edited by Gavvot on 07-31-2004 01:14 PM
Bob_the_tomato wrote:
The official combat medic description:
"A healer who who also has some field training to increase his odds of survival in battle"
That's on page 75 of the new manual.
i think this has been pretty throughly de-bunked elsewhere, but...
in the official prima swg guide we are discribed as battle field healers, yes. but the guide goes on to say that even so, our most potent and feared abilities revolve around chemical warfare. It does in fact go into a bit of detail as to the offensive role of combat medicine, which includes biological and chemical weapons of mass destruction.
this is not a "fix," it is another profession crushing cop-out by inept developers submitting to a crowd of angst-ridden adolescent whiners.
Maybe there is still hope for me.
I have some doubt there is still hope for you.
CM is a support profession.
Support doesn't mean healing only.
Poison and disease are support damage.
In the real army, artilery is a support unit.
I'm pretty sure it does deal damage.
I never denied the fact that CM should deal damage.
What I said is that when you take into account the incredible defense a CM is in a group, it is normal that the CM is NOT the main damage dealer.
do you think soldiers fear bullets or nerve gas more?
I know both kill him in 1 shot.
Wanna implement that in the game?
you have said elsewhere that you thought this was good. now you don't like the way the issue is treated. maybe you are making progress. yes, some poisons do rediculous damage. that is not a reason to render poison essentially useless.
I think it is really good that SOMETHING is finally DONE.
If you think that having everybody and his dog able to counter minimum 80% of your damage, I suggest you make a TKA...
This change does NOT make the poison and disease completely useless.
It remove the I win direct effect of those against well prepared PvPer.
If I argue here, it is for one reason :
I don't like mindless whine.
If at least you would think of it before crying like a baby, and find constructive critics, that would make things a little more interesting.
And I'm not gonna argue anymore about the DE profession, you obviously don't know anything about it, so there is no point to argue.
Gavvot wrote:
In the real army, artilery is a support unit.
I'm pretty sure it does deal damage.
"ARMAMENT
The Multiple Launch Rocket System is a high mobility automatic system based on an M270 weapons platform. MLRS fires surface-to-surface rockets and the Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS). Without leaving the cab the crew of three (driver, gunner and section chief) can fire up to twelve MLRS rockets in less than 60 seconds.
The MLRS launcher unit comprises an M270 Launcher loaded with 12 rockets, packaged in two six-rocket pods. The launcher, which is mounted on a stretched Bradley chassis, is a highly automated self-loading and self-aiming system. It contains a fire control computer that integrates the vehicle and rocket launching operations.
The rockets can be fired individually or in ripples of two to twelve. Accuracy is maintained in all firing modes because the computer re-aims the launcher between rounds."
"
MUNITIONS
The basic MLRS tactical rocket warhead contains 644 M77 munitions, which are dispensed above the target in mid-air. The dual-purpose bomblets are armed during freefall and a simple drag ribbon orients the bomblets for impact. Each MLRS launcher can deliver almost 8,000 munitions in less than 60 seconds at ranges exceeding 32km.
Other mission-oriented rockets include the Extended-Range (ER) rocket, the Reduced-Range Practice Rocket (RRPR) with a range of 8km to 15km and the AT2, which dispenses 28 antitank mines per round. The Extended Range rocket, first fielded in 1998, carries 518 improved munitions in excess of 45km. "
During the Gulf War, the Iraqi army referred to the MLRS rockets as steel rain. Those rockets are designed to explode before impact sending out a rain of shrapnel to cut down anything over the area where it is deployedwhich encompasses a large area. If that what you mean by support, well yeah CMs have been that sort of support unit all along.
Sorry, but that statement really made me laugh it was so off target.
Gavvot wrote:
neutrineaux,
Maybe there is still hope for me.
I have some doubt there is still hope for you.
then you don't know me and/or underestimate me. but that is not all bad for me.
CM is a support profession.
Support doesn't mean healing only.
Poison and disease are support damage.
In the real army, artilery is a support unit.
I'm pretty sure it does deal damage.
I never denied the fact that CM should deal damage.
What I said is that when you take into account the incredible defense a CM is in a group, it is normal that the CM is NOT the main damage dealer.
perhaps we should define "support" better. my understanding was that you were referring to healing as our primary "support" role, which is the role some CMs choose, and do so effectively. However, poison and disease should be thought of as offensive weapons, and thus, in this context, are assault, rather than support in nature. A chemical weapons expert should be able to mount an assault with appropriate fire support from ranged and melee soldiers. but that does not make the slodiers "support" professions in this context. at least not from my viewpoint.
do you think soldiers fear bullets or nerve gas more?
I know both kill him in 1 shot.
Wanna implement that in the game?
actually, neither reliably kills in one shot. if they did, medics would be unneeded
you have said elsewhere that you thought this was good. now you don't like the way the issue is treated. maybe you are making progress. yes, some poisons do rediculous damage. that is not a reason to render poison essentially useless.
I think it is really good that SOMETHING is finally DONE.
oh, my bad. i though you were actually understanding the content rather than reacting to a CM who nuked you once. sorry i overestimated your progress here.
If you think that having everybody and his dog able to counter minimum 80% of your damage, I suggest you make a TKA...
it is not 80% of the damage. it is 95% of the hits, another chunck of the damage if you manage a hit (1 in 20 chance), and heals that can be applied to everyone nearby at a rate four times that at which the damage can be attempted in the first place. If tk had that level of defense available against it, most would agree it would be useless. and no, we have no kd like tk's rely on.
This change does NOT make the poison and disease completely useless.
actually, it pretty much makes them useless... see above.
It remove the I win direct effect of those against well prepared PvPer.
If I argue here, it is for one reason :
I don't like mindless whine.
but your arguements are pretty mindless and ill-informed
If at least you would think of it before crying like a baby, and find constructive critics, that would make things a little more interesting.
dood3, the CM's are proposing solutions. it is the trolls (i.e., you) who are not contributing in a constructive fashion. and i am not crying, i am countering your weak and pitiful arguements. *sniff sniff* lol
And I'm not gonna argue anymore about the DE profession, you obviously don't know anything about it, so there is no point to argue.
you need to just give it up. master artisan is no more required for DE than master doctor is for combat medic. heck, i was master doc, and it is much easier for me that way. i could make uber ABEC's for my ranged stims, which i need in large quantities. but it ain't required. just darn handy.
Niamb wrote:
Gavvot wrote:
In the real army, artilery is a support unit.
I'm pretty sure it does deal damage.
I'm sorry to take this thread off topic, but that is the funniest thing I've read in a long time. My son just got out of the Army after serving in the Field Artillery (yes, he did a tour of duty in Iraq). Yes, let me assure you the artillery does deal damage. My son was part of a multiple launch rocket system unit so I have learned a bit about what artillery can do. Copied a few things off the internet:
"ARMAMENT
The Multiple Launch Rocket System is a high mobility automatic system based on an M270 weapons platform. MLRS fires surface-to-surface rockets and the Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS). Without leaving the cab the crew of three (driver, gunner and section chief) can fire up to twelve MLRS rockets in less than 60 seconds.
The MLRS launcher unit comprises an M270 Launcher loaded with 12 rockets, packaged in two six-rocket pods. The launcher, which is mounted on a stretched Bradley chassis, is a highly automated self-loading and self-aiming system. It contains a fire control computer that integrates the vehicle and rocket launching operations.
The rockets can be fired individually or in ripples of two to twelve. Accuracy is maintained in all firing modes because the computer re-aims the launcher between rounds."
"
MUNITIONS
The basic MLRS tactical rocket warhead contains 644 M77 munitions, which are dispensed above the target in mid-air. The dual-purpose bomblets are armed during freefall and a simple drag ribbon orients the bomblets for impact. Each MLRS launcher can deliver almost 8,000 munitions in less than 60 seconds at ranges exceeding 32km.
Other mission-oriented rockets include the Extended-Range (ER) rocket, the Reduced-Range Practice Rocket (RRPR) with a range of 8km to 15km and the AT2, which dispenses 28 antitank mines per round. The Extended Range rocket, first fielded in 1998, carries 518 improved munitions in excess of 45km. "
During the Gulf War, the Iraqi army referred to the MLRS rockets as steel rain. Those rockets are designed to explode before impact sending out a rain of shrapnel to cut down anything over the area where it is deployedwhich encompasses a large area. If that what you mean by support, well yeah CMs have been that sort of support unit all along.
Sorry, but that statement really made me laugh it was so off target.
yeah, they build and test these near my parents house. this game needs artillery. combat medics need fire support from infantry. but that does not make the assault capability supportive by nature. rather, it is supportive if it is used to support. as opposed to healing, which is supportive by nature.