Combat Medic Archive
Thread: CM's and CU: Some Info
bgm wrote:
I always love those posts that say you have to have some qualification before speaking. Would it help if she was a white landowner? Would this give her more voice? Yes, I know I am assuming "she." My apologies if this is not correct. But bottom line - you doNOT play ina vacuum. And as such, since what affects CM eventually impacts us all, everyone has the right to speak. If you're going to jump into a technical discussion about a profession it would help alot if you had some time under your belt to know the in's and outs. Its like a smuggler telling TK's what they should and should not have when he's still only got unarmed 4. The white landowner comment was totally uncalled for. Its racist and might even get you perma-banned. I'd suggest you edit that ASAP.
Beyond trashing whatwas a well-meant and plainly constructive response, you have probably hit the nail on the head - thatthis requirement was put in for that exact reason - to make CMs choose between bio-suppression or master rifle. Sounds like balance to me. Yeah, sucks that this nixes carbs as well, but how else would you suggest they handle it? You're still going by the old school way of looking at professions. Have you seen the damage on pistols? The specials they get?Its not an issue on MIND damage but profession roles. Myself and others have already posted ways tohandle the SP cost but it seems you've totallyblown over those.Please re-read the last paragraph I commented on tounderstand our troubles a bit better.
RazaTailor wrote:
Oh right I forgot. Unless you complain you have no room posting on these forums. I am just saying people are jumping to conclusions as to how much they are going to suck already. How old is the upgrade beta? A week? two weeks? I would think people would have alot more to complain about than specials names and certifications.
... & mine appears here. 
Message Edited by noran_vaz on 04-07-2005 01:54 AM
Brainplay wrote:
bgm wrote:
I always love those posts that say you have to have some qualification before speaking. Would it help if she was a white landowner? Would this give her more voice? Yes, I know I am assuming "she." My apologies if this is not correct. But bottom line - you doNOT play ina vacuum. And as such, since what affects CM eventually impacts us all, everyone has the right to speak. If you're going to jump into a technical discussion about a profession it would help alot if you had some time under your belt to know the in's and outs. Its like a smuggler telling TK's what they should and should not have when he's still only got unarmed 4. The white landowner comment was totally uncalled for. Its racist and might even get you perma-banned. I'd suggest you edit that ASAP.
Beyond trashing whatwas a well-meant and plainly constructive response, you have probably hit the nail on the head - thatthis requirement was put in for that exact reason - to make CMs choose between bio-suppression or master rifle. Sounds like balance to me. Yeah, sucks that this nixes carbs as well, but how else would you suggest they handle it? You're still going by the old school way of looking at professions. Have you seen the damage on pistols? The specials they get?Its not an issue on MIND damage but profession roles. Myself and others have already posted ways tohandle the SP cost but it seems you've totallyblown over those.Please re-read the last paragraph I commented on tounderstand our troubles a bit better.
Since the comment isn't racist - it isa comment to illuminatehow hypocritical people are when theytry to disqualify anyone else from speaking- I think I'll leave it. You should really learn what racism is. If anything, since I am caucasion, it is very self-deprecating and slaps at our horrid past. Ok, it is a little harsh, I'll grant you. But your principle of exclusion in my opinion is just as harsh. And, frankly, I am sick of it.
Again, you don't play in a vacuum. You play in an MMO. So what you can do affects everyone else. So yes, even non-CMs are allowed to have opinions and offer comments and criticisms of what CMs can do and not do. In fact their opinions are just as important as they give the "other side" view that allows for objective thought and discussion. So a smuggler wants to talk about TK? Heck, let an artisan talk about TK. As long as the comments are constructive.
And yeah, I have looked at the professions. I have also looked at the profession guide. Rifle is slated to be the master ranged nuker. Not pistols. Not carbine. Rifles = master ranged nuker. So it isn't an issue of mind damage - it is an issue of outright damage** period **. I have read the guides, I understand as best as we can at this point where they are going with the professions, and I am happy they are working to balance things out. I still hate the magic healing thing, but o well.
Edit: I have gone back and re-read, and most/all of the answers I have seen dealing with skill points have had one answer: move to ranged 4. Ok, there was one saying that CM should have negative modifiers, but can you imagine the amount of complaining that would incite? Unfortunately, that does not deal with the potential reasons it may not currently bein ranged 4. Specifically
1.the devs may have felt full MCM/MR was too powerful as a nuker ( if you just add the offensive ratings: rifle(5) and CM(4) is a 9 and pretty darn high ). Sorry to say, but that is a pretty popular opinion with some folks. The way they have it, you can still be MCM/MR, but not full MCM. Or you can be full MCM, but not full rifleman. Support or nuke? I know it ain't pretty, just like the TKA requirement to take a weapon tree just to try to keep the triple elite combos off the blocks. It ain't pretty, but it works while still keeping the current mechanics.
2. the devs may have wanted to get CMs within striking distance of other classes instead of being able to attack from extreme range. Maybe no more poison kiting,who knows. And yes, 35m is still at range. That is still a decent distance to toss anything with pinpoint accuracy.
-- last remark edited as it was just snippy. guess maybe I should have some tea when I go home --
Message Edited by bgm on 04-07-2005 08:37 AM
Message Edited by bgm on 04-07-2005 08:43 AM
Message Edited by bgm on 04-05-2005 10:40 AM
RM-125 wrote:
I wouldn't call it a nerf because nothing is staying the same. It's a complete re-write of the combat system. If they were tuning down professions in the old system to balance them out, then it would be nerfing. Right now, its just all new.
We are all becoming weaker. Somethings are changing, but some things are staying the same. therefor, we are getting nerfed.
I disagree. Our role use to be group combat healer and damage dealer, now it will be limited to debuffer (CM)and crowd control (pistols).
Brainplay wrote:
Our certs. and schems. are changing. Our role is not.
Who is really stuck in the old system here?
Again, according to the doc, yes, MCM/MR ** will ** be a powerhouse damage dealer and would be even more so if allowed to master medic. Since we just now got the elite profs on TC5, that doc is all I have to go by. And since debuffs add to damage by making targets slow/less resistent to range damage/unable to fire specials/etc/etc, debuffs count just as much asdots. And this isn't evenconsidering the possibility of stacking debuffs with dots. Get over the "our only weapon is poison" thing. That is the old system.
People, or maybe just eveyone but you, see much more than the little blue "kewl" blob. Thanks to that HAM bar, they also see huge chunks of HAM disappear without firing a shot. Heck, half the time we see huge chunks of HAM disapper with the attacker sitting out at 70m just sitting there waiting. We keep griping thatthis game is becoming EQ/WoW, but I haven't seen that much kiting sinceplaying with my necro friends in EQ. Thankfully, we have more visual queues than just "a big sound and holes." Most of us actually watch the damage being done and themethods used. And that is how we can form opinions of what other toons can or should be able to do without playing it. And as long as it is offered constructively in the spirit of balance, and not just by whipping out the nerf bat, you shouldn't have a problem with that.
Yes, the base pistols do have a high dps, although this is a beta andso is subject to change. In fact, they all got pulled last night.Did any get respec'd?But the fact is that usinga pistolputs you in range of all of the other ranged combatants, and much closer toMr. Melee,so there is a risk/reward trade-off that you don't have as much with carb and may not experience at all with rifle. It will be much easier to kite with carb/riflethan it will be with pistol. It isn't just about dps now that weapons range also matters. Again, who's really stuck in the old system? Ihave only spoken of totaldamage, and in that realm, MCM/MR will bevery formidable. And if you think about it, that offensive rating for CM at 4 is probably not taking into account someone who does actually master medic. It is most likely just based on the base requirements for CM. If you master medic, and get that extra 20%, might that rating be a 5?
Since you are talking as if you have done it, how are the specials for pistol as oppossed to rifle? I am assuming from the prof descriptions, and again I have not played it since it was only released to TC5 yesterday, that rifle specials are all aimed at increasing damage output whereas most if not all of the pistols specials are directed at crowd control. If this is so, don't be fooled by the dps ratings of the weapons. With my rifleman toon I spam strafe shot for more than just the arcade fun of mashing a button repeatedly.
If you chose to go carbine, you are out of range of pistols and melee. If you choose to go rifle, you are out of range of everyone but other rifleman. Don't think that is important? Take a gunboat/corvette face-on and consider this as it pounds you from 1k out. Better yet, wait to fire only when you get within 200m of the gunboat. Oh heck, just sit there at 1k and contemplate the obvious wondering why your targeting lead is not activated. Range matters.
And yes, you can probably go all of those other professions and still hit a 9 or more for offense. If I get a chance, I will hit thebeta char builder, look at all of the profs that can be mastered together, and see what the combined offensive scoreis. But, and here is the part you continue to miss, there is a tradeoff. They cannot doall of thatand be able to heal themselveslike a CM can. And I don't believe they will have access to the same number or intensity of dots/debuffs a CM has. It is all about balance! And it is this tradeoff which is potentially the justification the devs are using for requiring pistols.
And I still will reiterate - you do not play in a vacuum. What you do can and does affect the play and enjoyment of those around you as their play affects you. So those that play along side you, those who are impacted by your play, have just as much reason to speak as you do. And as long as the opinions given are constructive, there is no reason not to accept them. And if there are points they have missed, you educate them. Nicely. Ths is howobjective discussion works. I am not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but I still like the lesson in the Judeo-Christian story ofJob where the young man, after being rebuked by his elders for not have enough years under his belt to give good advice, fires back that wisdom is not a product of age but a gift to respected on its own merits. In a similar manner, anyone with a constructive opinion should be considered equally as, again, they give the other side view that allows for objective decisions. But it does not appear you are concerned about being objective. It does not appear you are concerned about how CM fits into the game as a whole.
You still continue to trudge on under the premise that you should be able to play this game any way you want and everyone else be darned. You are not playing KOTOR with chat. It isn't about what works ** for you **. And it isn't about just what works ** for CMs **. It is about what works for you and CMs in this game with everyone else.No one has to play MD, MCM, or TK or any other profession to know how they impact the rest of the game. Soif you are a BH, Commando, or other prof and see someone outdamaging you from range, being able to do damagevia dots from outside range, being able to do damage regardless of any resiststhe targets armor might have,andbeing able to heal themselves of damage, and wounds - there is plenty right there to have a very informed opinionof howCM affects the game. Andby doing so they have a very valid opinion about what CM should or should not be able to do. Iknow this as my BH buddy continues to tell me how it isn't fair that I can do more damage with my fist as TKA than he can do with alightning cannon. As he might say, "It's freakin' lightning!!!!" So even without ever playinga TKA, he has a very, very valid point.He knows "the game mechanics" just fine. And that doesn't even take into consideration that I can do all of that while healing myself in-fight andhealing my wounds between fights.
But if you need further education, I am pretty sure there have been lots of folks throughout history who felt that decisions that impacteveryone should really only be made by the priveledged few. Your elitist socities have existed in many incarnations, so there are plenty of examples for you to go by. This is sad, because in other posts I totally agree with you that I wish they would not take away the resource aspect of CM or Doctor. I hate the magic feel on TC5asnow my abilities feel hollow withoutany sense of accomplishment. Even as fullMCM/MD with 50 backpack slots resource managementwasn't too bad. And it added flavor to the gameplay. Too bad you have to go and ruin it with this elitist mentality.
I'll try togive you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are bitter, as I once was, about defending being an MCM from everyone. But then the "Poison Wars" started, and my eyes were opened, and I started looking at this from their point of view as well as my own.
Honestly, in a group game, what is a support role? We will all support each other. Ranged toons will try to nuke without drawing hate, the melee tanks will keep the melee attackers off of the ranged nukers and healers and try to sustain the mob's hate, the mezzers will attempt to limit the number of attacking targets, and healers will try to healwithout drawing hate. If your definition of support role is that of anon-damage-dealing toon, then only Doctors fall into that category as CM will have dot "spells" as well as be responsible for a certainpercentage of every hit from every other toon due to the debuffs. Add in the armor cert, and even without the weapon cert we are still not just a "support role."
And actually, yes, our role is changing **** big time *****. OMG, how can you think our role isn't changing? Although I grant you might be one of the folks who still goes out with an party to keep them alive, you are certainly in the minority. CM today is not the role of a healer but of a long-range nuker.That is why most of my friends quit this game when it changed to "Poison Wars." If what has been proposed actually makes it to live, we will still be a damage dealer, and that is fantastic, but we will also be crowd control and be needed as healers again. That so far sounds like a pretty rich toon type, butwe'll have to see now that elites are available for testing. If nothing else, they are forcing us to change as I believe medical xp can now only begotten ingroup in combat andthen only once the mobis killed. That, my friend, is a huge change. Oh, and have you forgotten we now get crowd control? You don't consider that a change to our role?
And I do sympathize with all of the folks that are potentially going to lose tons of credits due to resources purchased for buff packs that may no longer be needed. And I do sympathize with all of those who are going to loss those legendary weapons. But for all of the folks that are upset because you willhave to make a choice between what your toon focuses on? Sorry, that one I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for. I know it restricts gameplay styles, just like the fact that we could not take melee to full master as a MCM restricted playstyles, just like the whole skill-point system restricts playstyles. But as long as that restriction adds to balance and the overall health of the game, I gotta support it. And I think this does. I really do. And if you want to respectfully disagree with that, feel free. That is fine. But don't come in here berating someone for not being "qualified" to have an opinion because "you are not in the mood." Your mood doesn't play into it. And as long as they pay there $15 to keep my server running, they are welcome to an opinion on how what I do impacts their game.
And just as a final note, many "professional combatants" chose to carry shotguns into combat. Not as a primary ranged weapon, mind you, but nothing beats it in close-quarters combat. That is why there are combat assault shotguns in most government arsenals, and yes, some of those even get modded to the sawed-off variety. For a personalexample, I will never forget the business trip I was sent on to El Salvador. Beautiful country, great people - loved it -but all of the guards at the bank I was working at were armed with shotguns slung forward ready to just kip up and fire.And in those confined spaces, they would have been very effective at taking out the target. And everyone else. So it is not a crappy combat weapon when used in the correct situation. Perhaps it is the fact that you don't understand this, the proper use of a weapon/ability in the propercircumstances,that is causing you all of this griefin understandingthe new system. You're stuck on the "poison is my only damage" mentality of the old system. Things, they are a'changin...
Brainplay wrote:
bgm wrote:
Again, you don't play in a vacuum. You play in an MMO. So what you can do affects everyone else. So yes, even non-CMs are allowed to have opinions and offer comments and criticisms of what CMs can do and not do. In fact their opinions are just as important as they give the "other side" view that allows for objective thought and discussion. So a smuggler wants to talk about TK? Heck, let an artisan talk about TK. As long as the comments are constructive. If you haven't played it, how would you know game mechanics? If you're a noob at it, how do you know what works and what doesnt'. Reading about it just means you can spout out the info but have no exp in situation application. I still run into CM's and non-CM's who think that poison ticks every 3 seconds or who think that our throw root is 1 second or have no clue about crafting or...I can go on and on.A double barrel sawed off shotgun looks really kewl and makes big sounds and holes. Its also a crappy combat weapon. But its looks powerful and kewl! But no professional combatant would touch one except under dire circumstances. You getting the drift here? Our certs. and schems. are changing. Our role is not.
And yeah, I have looked at the professions. I have also looked at the profession guide. Rifle is slated to be the master ranged nuker. Not pistols. Not carbine. Rifles = master ranged nuker. So it isn't an issue of mind damage - it is an issue of outright damage** period **. I have read the guides, I understand as best as we can at this point where they are going with the professions, and I am happy they are working to balance things out. I still hate the magic healing thing, but o well. Back to rifles? Have you looked at the other professions? You honestly think that MCM/MR is going to be the big powerhouse damage dealer? Unless they make poison really powerful we are going to be strictly a support profession. Keep rifles out of this.Pistols is turning into a high dps profession as well. CM's can still master it and regular CM. They can't master medic for the healing effciency and bio-suppression bonuses.
1.the devs may have felt full MCM/MR was too powerful as a nuker ( if you just add the offensive ratings: rifle(5) and CM(4) is a 9 and pretty darn high ). Sorry to say, but that is a pretty popular opinion with some folks. The way they have it, you can still be MCM/MR, but not full MCM. Or you can be full MCM, but not full rifleman. Support or nuke? I know it ain't pretty, just like the TKA requirement to take a weapon tree just to try to keep the triple elite combos off the blocks. It ain't pretty, but it works while still keeping the current mechanics. No actually people remember the old MIND damage days and seem to think we'll still be packing 1k health poison in the CU just like they seem to think that TK's are going to be heavy damage dealers still. Our debuffs and effects have as much to play into that (4) as our DoT's. Considering you can go BH/commando, Fencer/TK, Swords/TK,and have points left over I'd say DPS combo's isn't an issue. Working up another medic tree and ranged support not only keeps us from triple master but allows us the ability to go with a melee or ranged just fine.
2. the devs may have wanted to get CMs within striking distance of other classes instead of being able to attack from extreme range. Maybe no more poison kiting,who knows. And yes, 35m is still at range. That is still a decent distance to toss anything with pinpoint accuracy. The only people who we'd be out of range from are other pistoleers should we go with carbines or rifles. Even commando's have better range. Unless the BE enhancers and advance abilities add to our throw range we'll still be in pistols range. Does that justify making pistols a pre-req? No, that should be a choice the CM wants to make.