Chef Archive
Thread: Proposal on reducing BE's contribution to food effectiveness
Nahualli wrote:
Oh and umm.. I hate to say it but since that "crippling dependency" comment keeps coming up... if you can't find a BE to make your stuff.. well then sorry kiddo you have to wait to get in touch with one or you can simply choose to hit "Create" without adding in a BE additive. This will produce food that, provided your experimentation is good enough, will still sell. This is an inconvenience, not a crippling dependency. A crippling dependency is one when you would not be able to create an item without input from another class.
You say then you won't be able to make any money off that?
But wait... I thought this wasn't about the money.........?
-Nah-
Nah, if I can not find a BE to make me tissue, when I have all the resources all they have to do is make me a schematic, then that is a crippling dependency and one that prevents me from playing MY game. If you do not understand that, then you are completely and totally BLIND because you are a Chef/BE and you just want to protect your precious advantage you have over everyone else. You making this post has basically put the nail in the coffin on your reasons for defending the current setup. You like how YOU do not have to depend on anyone else, for you to even comment on the dependency issue is a comment out of PURE greed to keep your advantage because you do not have this dependancy. You are simply trying to hold the rest of us back with the comment you dont have to make BE tissue, sure ok we wotn make it and leave that ENTIRE market up to you. Uh ok.
I am glad you ahve came here and posted all you have you are a shining example of how the current setup can be viewed as a "crippling dependancy"
Denoby Master Chef
Ja-van wrote:
With me the problem is not in the fact of needing another class to make our items. The problem is
1. The current setup does NOT work well for high volume. Sure sell me a few crates of BE tailor tissue a week I will hand craft a few BE enhanced clothing. no big deal. But, chefs do not operate in that manner. We99% of the time do factory runs.What BE wants to dedicate 1-2 factories to chefs full time? Very few. Plus it is a royal pain in the rump to make room in the character inventory for 40-80 crates.
All I want to do as a chef is to be able to make the best that I can, to keep a vendor stocked with the items they are looking for (nothing I personally hate more than visiting a vendor that is empty or barely has anything on it), to be able to provide my PA with foods to help with the GCW, to build a reputation as chef that makes exceptional foods, (yes this is a game, and no I do not have some sort of a complex, If you go through life just wanting to be mediocre then you have a problem) and to make enough credits to not worry if I will be able to makethe weekly payments.
Denoby Master Chef
Despite the fact that I am in a different situation and despite the fact that I came into this debate with an opposing viewpoint, there area lot of things we agree on.
For one thing the space management issue. Yes I feel your pain. Twice as badly. Have you ever tried managing DNA on top of foodstuffs? *chuckles* It's not pretty.
I don't, per se, *like* the BE interdependency any more than you do. "what did he say??!?!" That's right.. I don't like it. I never *planned* on being a BE, you might almost say I didn't *want to* be a BE.. I *chose* to become one as a result of the changes when I found how hard it was going to be to make food additivesin bulk. I can prove this also if you really feel like searching posts in this forum, if you wanna go back a few weeks to a post called something like "Chef/BE 0040" or something... I wasn't a BE back then. the BE is so recent to me I'm still only 0232 right now. I don't know why I'm suddenly trying to justify myself but there it is.. my reaction to the chef changes was that it was necessary to alter my profession. I didn't move in the day after the revamp to "cash in" on the changes. Christ if you knew me at all on Corbantis you would know I walk around the starports giving my food away for free while fixing people's hair (I'm an ID master as well).. profit is the last thing on my mind. But you guys don't see that.. all you see is "neo-chef" and shut me out.And all because I disagree with seeking a change so soon after the revamp.
The reason I disagree with this whole thing from the start? Because the revamp hasn't been in effect for very long, you need to give things some time, the dust has to settle. If you scream and yell now you'll only get a backhanded nerf and I don't want to see that happen to anyone. Let the servers have their fill of the BE enhanced crap now, in another month the majority of people will realize that .. hey the non BE stuff works just as well, no need to pay another 150k per crate.
Of course this could all be wishful thinking on my part, but .. oh well. At least I'm not lamenting the destruction of a profession. If anything I'm just trying to get by, same as y'all.
No wait, I'm just a neo-chef. I am the enemy. *rolls eyes*
-Nah-
Ja-van wrote
Nah, if I can not find a BE to make me tissue, when I have all the resources all they have to do is make me a schematic, then that is a crippling dependency and one that prevents me from playing MY game. If you do not understand that, then you are completely and totally BLIND because you are a Chef/BE and you just want to protect your precious advantage you have over everyone else. You making this post has basically put the nail in the coffin on your reasons for defending the current setup. You like how YOU do not have to depend on anyone else, for you to even comment on the dependency issue is a comment out of PURE greed to keep your advantage because you do not have this dependancy. You are simply trying to hold the rest of us back with the comment you dont have to make BE tissue, sure ok we wotn make it and leave that ENTIRE market up to you. Uh ok.
See? Again. No one ever considers the fact that me becoming a BE was a reaction to the change itself, my own way of adapting to it. It always has to be about profit.
And *I'm* the one making assumptions and generalizations???
-Nah-
Nahualli wrote:
Please stop taking what I say out of context. Contrary to what you may think the whole point of my last post was to try to find some common ground with some of the people on this board I'm at odds with, not to rehash the issues or to write a dissertation on class interdependencies. Of course I'm oversimplifying, it's for the sake of conversation.
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No oversimplifying does nothing for conversation, except limiting it. We are here to make THE BEST product, not the OK product. We all will make stuff that is not BE enhanced, but to be a true Master you MUST use these enhancements.
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Oh and umm.. I hate to say it but since that "crippling dependency" comment keeps coming up... if you can't find a BE to make your stuff.. well then sorry kiddo you have to wait to get in touch with one or you can simply choose to hit "Create" without adding in a BE additive. This will produce food that, provided your experimentation is good enough, will still sell. This is an inconvenience, not a crippling dependency. A crippling dependency is one when you would not be able to create an item without input from another class.
You say then you won't be able to make any money off that?
But wait... I thought this wasn't about the money.........?
-Nah-
1) I don't see any comments about money from anyone here but you. I have made a profit at Master Artisan and now as a Master Chef, but I NEVER gouge the market. I still sell Swoops for 16k, just like I always have, tell me you see that pricing anywhere else? I do the same with my food, selling it for 3-5cru, which is less than the raw materials are worth. I do this because I like it and want to be among the best.
2) It is Crippling because I can't be the best without a BE providing either schematics or supplements on a regular basis. If the few BE's that can be found would make them it wouldn't be a problem, but when they don't it becomes a crippling factor. If you didn't think it was overly limited, then why did you make a BE alt? I believe you mentioned it was easier to find meat than a BE.
SitructheGhost wrote:
No oversimplifying does nothing for conversation, except limiting it. We are here to make THE BEST product, not the OK product. We all will make stuff that is not BE enhanced, but to be a true Master you MUST use these enhancements.
Ok, now you're just picking on me. Oversimplifying may limit conversation but arguing over details hinders it MORE. I wasn't even talking to you in that quote, I was talking to one person in particular. Sure it's an open message board and you have every right to read what's up there and stuff.. but stop deconstructing what I write... this wasn't meant for you to begin with.
As for the profit comment.. yeah it comes up now and again. The running assumption seems to be that I made a BE alt in order to corner the market.. man, talk about judging what you don't know. If you want to comment on how I don't know your playstyle then allow me to turn that back on you. You don't know mine. You know nothing about me how can you assume my move was purely for profit? If the "fishak whore" was overstepping (I admit it was) then saying I'm greedy is overstepping also. We're both making assumptions on the other person yet only I'm being called out on it.. why? Totally hypocritical.
Like I said, I managed to find the post I was referring to. As of 2-11 I was not even a BE. My move to make a BE alt was entirely based on the new direction the class was taking. I simply chose to adapt in what ways were available to me. I could probably do without the headache of managing a Chef AND a BE inventory. It's a pretty messy affair altogther. If you think you log on and do nothing but click combine like an oaf then log off how the hell do you think I feel? Yeah yeah, woe is me. This isn't a pity post just a little wake-up call for the haters that won't let up on me. I'm having the same difficulties you are, perhaps even more, and not reaping any more benefit from it. None of this changes the fact that I think seeking a change this soon after the revamp is a classic case of leaping before you look.
-Nah-
Typical lame Nahualli move.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=chef&message.id=25485#M25485
-Nah-
Nikii_Nightstrider wrote:
Your explanation only enforces the issue.
Sorry I didn't think it was wrong to want to be self-sufficient.
-Nah-
Nah, my apologies.
In rereading your posts on this and some other threads, for anyone to ascribe a profit only motive to you is unfair at least.
The problem I do have is in your idea thatwe should just acceptanything handed out without looking for possible improvements.
I for one also agree with the idea that screaming and yelling for a fix doesn't help, however, waiting longer doesn't make it easier. Having been in software development in the past, I know that I would rather learn about user issues right away, in a polite manner, so I can fix them while still fresh. The test server is a nice idea, but doesn't have enough people on it to truly get all the problems worked out, as evidenced by the several bugged foods and even the Dead Eye issues. To delay to offer the feedback helps nobody, we all just need to be sure to offer constructive feedback and try to see all sides before our correspondent, whoever it will be, brings the ideas to the devs.
I like interdependency, just not the extreme effect it provides compared to my own effect. I want to produce food that is based on my skill in crafting and resource gathering, not based on someone else's. A raise in our experimental ranges with a corresponding reduction in BE enhancements will not lower the demand for BE, but will give a Master better results than a mid-level chef.
There is one overwhelming reason to hold off on taking this to the devs though, and that is the proposed changes to crafting in the next patch. None of us have ANY idea on what the real effect willbe from that. It may very well give us the results based on skill that we all seem to want.
Look at what this thread has evolved into. I'm not pointing fingers - hell, I'm even willing to point the finger at myself here. This has become more of a "grief" thread than a productive one. I, personally, don't relish in all of this grief and aggravation. I don't relish defending opinions and wisdom of the pre-publish Chef community. Ironically, I do find the positivity coming from the newer Chefs to be invigorating.I don't like perceptions that the "old thymers"are elitist and unwilling to acceptthe newer Chefs. We just got hit with apublish that changes everything. Give us some time. Give us a break, we don't like what has happened. That is what this thread is about, clamoring for change/balance -- not a return to the so-called Glory Days.
Now ask yourself a question. Why hasn't SirVimes (Chef Correspondent)posted in this thread (often)? I believe the answer to this is two fold.
1. He doesn't want to be associatedwith all of the grief and aggravation. Hemay havea reputation to protect (not just for himself, but for all Chefs). Explaining what has already been explained time and time again... well, lets just say that all that needs to be said has been said - and the appearance of getting emotionally involved is not constructive (as further evidenced with this thread).
2.Because the "Proposal on reducing BE's contribution to food effectiveness" may already be answered. If you remember, in the next big Publish, they have stated that they are making fixes to the overall crafting system - and even the combat system. <----Points finger to himself---- I should have posted this - but I pretty much forgot to.
Nah, you asked me a good question. As I recall, it was in reference to the market for Non-BioEngineeredproducts bottoming out once there are enough Chefs to mass produce BioEngineered products. I base this theory (perhaps erroneously) on a fear of mine. Each server is different, that much is given. Chefs are the "new" flavor of the month. That is also a given. But I think that alot of the new Chefs coming over (and this isn't meant to be derogatory), will end up staying once they see the profitability factor. Heck, some of them may be like some of us and actually enjoy creating digital cheese and wine (and yes that beats my flagella - I'm a Chef! :smileyhappy
This game, you have to admit, is constantly growing - and my comments were geared more towards the future - not the near future. Eventually, I think, enough Chefs will be available to where crafting Non-BioEngineer products will be more of an expense than it is worth. In which case, this "revamp" could make us useless. In which case, it is more of a boon to BioEngineers to Chefs. In which case, itshould be balanced. Which it will be /crosses fingers... next publish. All of this is based off of conjecture, I admit it. It's my opinion. But I feel that there is a chance of this happening.
MuttonJedi wrote:
I agree with increasing the range on stat foods, but I don't see why the range on the BE additives should be reduced. What is wrong with having average chef + great BE do as well as great chef + average BE?
If anything, I think decreasing the range between good and bad additives will only discourage BE's from making a business of selling them, and that will just hurt the chefs that don't have a BE alt/friend/etc.
Mutton
You're absolutely right. I played with those numbers for a while, but couldn't come up with a convincing argument. My opinion is that we've gotten a lot of love recently with the revamp, but we still deserve one more balance. This is how I'd like to see the BE supplement experimentation vs. Chef experimentation:
This is what I really want:
I'm going to say below average food is that which allows only 40% after full experimentation, and Best is still 100% after full experimentation.
Best Resources + Below Average Supplement = Below Average Resources + Best Supplement
Non-experimented Food + Non-experimented Supplement >= Best Resources + No Supplement (But only a little)
Increase the range of food experimentation. I don't mind if the min is lower, although not enough to hurt novice chefs.
Without putting numbers on anything, this should make both sides happy. Chefs will have greater range of experimentation, and BE will have basically the same control. Novice Chefs/BE can compete with masters if they do some extra legwork to have both novice food + Novice supps. And supplements can keep the effectiveness they currently have (I didn't say anything about nerfing BE supps in this proposal).
As far as experimenting Chef Additives, I don't think the extra step will add enough depth to really make it worthwhile. Simply adding experimentation to additives means chefs will have to stock up on lots of high quality water, which appears quite frequently (twice in the last month on Valcyn). Also, Water only has 2 stats. If you make multiple experimentation lines, they're going to be based on the same stats. And finally, if you change the resource requirements for additives then you're creating a brand new recipe, 3 new recipes in fact. History dicates that only happens when you're the focus of a publish (and that ship has sailed).
Yes, perhaps waiting is also just as bad as pushing for change. It's all a crapshoot. I was just basing my opinion on what I saw in the BE forums. There are a few threads of things that continue to fester in that profession, and since they were revamped before the 10 Questions threads started to go up, when it came time for the BE 10 Questions, they were all already answered or they were being given a "we disagree. BE's have a lot to offer the community, it's up tothe BE's themselves to find out what that is"
Perhaps now that we've gotten past our basic differences it's time to ask SirVimes if or what he knows about this? Tevoo brings up a good point, we don't have a lot of details about the crafting revamp.
-Nah-