Chef Archive
Thread: Proposal on reducing BE's contribution to food effectiveness
sciguyCO wrote:
Ja-van: I think cutting out 3/4 of the BE's food tissue recipes is too drastic. And (even considered in the context of a video game) a bit unrealistic: a single magic ingredient lets a chef choose to increase any of four attributes or any combination? I think having the four typeseach withthree sizes is a reasonable setup, provided a chef can make additional improvements when the tissue is included in an additive.
I agree that my ideacould be viewed asdrastic now. Would it have been viewed that way before the patch? I dont buy the unrealistic bit, if most chefs thought it was a good idean and would make us happythen a good company would do it. I am not requesting the max numbers to be changed just the method in how those numbers are derived with a little more flexiblity at the cost of the max. (how it used to be when we experimented on subs)Although, your probably right and I am an idiot for evensuggesting that SOE would be capable of making a change of this nature.I do feel itwould bring back the challenge and the "tweakability" that we had when we could experiment on our subs and could use different alcohol subs. That is what we lost and the reasonsome of usfeel the way we do; just an assembly line worker now. The challenge has went from tweaking food to its maximum, to bugging enough people long enough to get you what you need so you can play the game. (do not read into this as being interdependancy as being what I am implying) I am talking about is figuring out how your going to get 60k of high quality meat from an already undermanned creature harvesting community,finding a BE that doesnt tell you "I refuse to make tissue, I am also a chef it creates competition" Yes I got that, wonder why I might come across a bit pissed at times.
There is no point in making BE tissue1/2 power (45%), then allowing us to experiment during the additive process to end upmaking a 85% Additive. The end result is the same as what we have now,except we add ANOTHER step in an antagonizing 8 factory run process. Anyone with 9 skill points can pretty much get a 60percentatage points to the orginal stats during the experimentation run. One of the first comments when the patch was on the TC, "we can not experiment on our subs, makes things easier, but I am not sure I like that or not" That lack of being able to experiment especially in the one SUB that effects our product is why some of us feel the way we do.
sciguyCO just so there is no confusion, I know you wasnt calling me dumb for my suggestion. I called myself that since we are dealing with SOE
This is just my constructive thoughts to this process.
Some of those chefs that are happy with how it is now have a BE as an alt, is a BE/Chef, never played chef before the patch and/or does not know how / unwilling to spend the time to experiment on the subs and made sub par items before the patch. In any case they are sitting with an advantage and are willing to defend there position at all cost.That ismy opinion, that is not being elitist, my suggestion isnot wanting things easier. That is making us craft our items and be the one that has control over its quality. Like it used to be. What fun is only trying to harvest good resources then placing them in a schematic then clicking combine. As Arthur has stated Throwing things in a factory, logging out, and seeing 100 crates the next morning (3 days later) magically appear when you login just isn't that interesting or stimulating. Man I feel the pain; that is all we do now. The difference is I bet most chefs purchase schematics and do the factory runs of BEtissue theirself, so this stimulating activity is done by the chef not the BE.It is A LOTsimpler doing it that way and what BE wants to havea factories tied up for 3 days doing chef tissue run? What about 4 runs of chef tissue, 2 factories for 6 days? Ihave burned through4-6 full runs of food in 1 week before.The other thing to keep in mind is theBEtissue is a component, an ingrediant, it should not be more complex than the finished product.
Denoby Master Chef
Message Edited by Ja-van on 02-25-2004 09:52 PM
Ja-van wrote:
There is no point in making BE tissue1/2 power (45%), then allowing us to experiment during the additive process to end upmaking a 85% Additive. The end result is the same as what we have now,except we add ANOTHER step in an antagonizing 8 factory run process. Anyone with 9 skill points can pretty much get a 60percentatage points to the orginal stats during the experimentation run.
Well, I was also trying to take into account the experimentation change slated for next publish. From reports posted the first time they tried that, the percentage increase you get with a great success scales depending on the max percentage from the resources. So right now, if you had 600 stat resources, you'll start at around 12%, and getting +7% per greatsuccess you max itout at 60% after 7 or so points spent. After the change, the increase with 600 stat resources might be +6% or +5%. With 900 stat resources, you'd start at around 18% and get +9 or so per great success.
I think out-of-game skills like learning what important stats are, taking the time to track down and harvest resources with them are as important as in-game skill improvement by grinding items and learning Cooking III from someone.
I am a little confused about why additive experimentation looks like an addiitonal step, though. Since we're rolling the tissue/supplement into an additive already, why is adding experimentation to the additive a big thing? Is it the chance of failure possibly requiring multiple tissues to get that "perfect" additive? Is it the added complication of having another resource we have to worry about stats on instead of grabbing whatever 2 cpu grinding water the local resource vendor has? Or am I missing something else?
I do think that the supplement (I think I've decided I like that better than tissue) is a special-case component. The benefits available from it (both in the current system and most of the proposed changes) can mean almost doubling the food's effectiveness, whether its increased buff, increased duration, reduced filling, or just making ginormous stacks. I'm not sure even aludian vs. alcohol made that big of a difference. I'm just seeing if theres a way to tweak the interdependency so that the "inter-" doesn't get lost.
Finally, the experimentation changedoes have a bigger effect when you're dealing with multiple experimentation categories, especially when they have different stat requirements. So your idea of having multiple things to tweak on the additive would make for even more customization.
I wonder if something like this would work. Keep the same 3 sizes / 4 types. Instead of a supplement only affecting one category, it affects two: Nutrition/duration,duration/quantity,quantity/filling, and filling/nutrition. BEs still have 12 supplements, so nothing gets taken away there. If we want to keep things simple on the supplement side, I would expect that you could still keep a single "effectiveness" experimentation category that affects both (like how experimenting "damage" on weapons increases both min and max). When rolled into the additive, the chef can split the experimentation between the two choices inherited from the supplement as he/she saw fit.
There's two ways that could go. Either both categories are a positive bonus, which would probably require reducing the max power at least a littleto keep buffs from getting too out of whack. Or one category could be a negative, requiring either a tradeoff (very high buff size but shorter duration) or spending points in the negative category to reduce its impact, also reducing the size of the increase you can experiment to on the positive category.
That probably took things too far into the "unnecessary complication zone", didn't it?
Finally (really this time), I honestly think that if this needs to be changed (considering both chef's and BE's input) and an acceptable design can be determined that has minimal coding requirements, we can get something done. Sure, the chef revamp took 8 months from launch, but most of that time devs were swamped with the mount, vehicle, player city publishes; stuff that was originally planned to be included on launch day. Maybe we can get something snuck into publish 8 when the Droid Engineer and combat revamps are done.
nik, its jamaica =) hey what tissue should i use, i researched it some and i think i can get some made. good to see you here.
jamaica
CJadefire wrote:
I couldn't care less about the 'last word' Sciguy; my problem is I cared about expressing an opinion to people who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo because it benefits them financially, people who will never consider the big picture of Balanced Crafting.
I'm going to make one last honest attempt to make you realize that we're actually more alike than you care to realize.
You : proponent of the old ways, favors more control over the end result of the food crafting process, favors limiting the potency of BE additives because it's reducing the Chef's status to that of being at the mercy of a BE if he/she wants to produce top of the line goods. HaveI encompassed the basic idea of what you're saying?
Ok then,
Me : proponent of the new ways, favors interdependency of one class to another, doesn't believe the current setup is a "crippling dependency" as was stated but feels that the system could use some minor tweaking. However, given SOE's track record for *minor tweaking* instead chooses not to remain hopeful that things will change because, let's face it, they seldom do. We had our 15 minutes of fame. It's pretty much over now. Look at how the BE's got treated after their revamp. When their issues were brought up a second time the response was pretty much "We gave you guys power, be happy with it"
Now then.. why is it my fault that I only know of the new ways? If Nikki could just stop hating on the new chefs, we don't have a choice. Look I'm really sorry that I don't know the old and grand days of being a chef, there isn't anything that anyone can do about that. Of course we're both arguing for what we're familiar and comfortable with that's human nature. Why *my* position is suddenly seen as destructive to the class while your's is not is a judgement that exists only in your head because the *reality* of the situation is this is still only talk. There's no vote, no request for dev intereference, no petition, no protest, no sit in, nothing.. it's just talk.
Because of the fact this is only a debate and nothing else you have to understand that nothing is being ruined it's only being talked about. What gets me more than anything is the treatment people around here get for having opinions that differ from the older Chefs. So we like the new system.. so what? Why do the more vocal chefs continually hold that against the newer chefs? Like it's my fault. Would you like me to surrender all my skill points? Would that help you sleep better at night, Nikii?
-Nah-
First I made a lot more than just fishak. That shows you did know know what good chefs could do before the patch. Calling me a fishak whore is pure ignorance. I kept 8 items stock all the time and they sold. Your right about a brandywhore because I spent all last with running 6 factories to make 2 full runs of brandy.Yes ittook 7 full days to make 2 runs of brandy.Your just upset because you have a HUGE advantage over other chefs because you are a BE. I never said I was THE best, I said I only make the best that I could and I experimented continuously to find the best solution, as well and the endless search for the best componets to get a satisfactory result. I am not going to make something that I know I can do better with. So I require myself to use tissue. AGAIN I have NO problem using tissue. I do not like the fact that YOU determine the quality of my food more than I do.
The patch is a bonus and is welcome, the inability to customize our foods how we want is the issue and is what has made a lot of the old timers leave, because this is what distinguished us from the average chef just throwing resources together.
2nd We are not complaining about the tailor interdependency. The only thing that would be nice is crates of 50 because of all teh crate shuffling that is going on. The problem with the BE dependency is the tissue is a component. I have no problem buying the tissue from you. But the tissue is a component. All I do as a chef is add water another factory run and wow my food is now twice as good. Any chef can do this with zero knowledge of the chef profession.
3rd People keep missing my point with the experimentation. I am not suggesting making it so we do teh experimentation on ONE line and end up with the SAME thing as what the BE give us now. I do not want that nor would it change anything. I am suggesting make it so there is ONE light tissue, ONEmedium tissue and ONE heavy tissue. We then take thattissue to make the additive. Then the CHEF experiments how he/she wants to to get the disired effect from the additive. Longer duration, longer buff, lower filling, better quantity, or mix up all 4. We would have ALL 4 experimentation bars available during the additive experimentation. This way we could customize our foods how we feel fit. This would also extend the gap between novice and master chefs. What is wrong with that, and WHY is that whining? All I am asking for is for the CHEF to be the one that determines the final outcome of the food, not the BE. We will still be dependant on the BE to provide tissues or schematics for tissues. The depenancy is NOT the issue, the issue is that the tissue that the BE makes is what determines the effect of the food, not the additive that WE make. Am I not being clear or are people just not reading or wanting to comprend what I am suggesting.
Message Edited by Ja-van on 02-25-2004 02:15 PM
Message Edited by Ja-van on 02-25-2004 02:21 PM
Ja-van,
Well, as a BE I wouldn't exactly be happy about losing schematics. I dunno, think of it as having a cooking rack full of ingredients, some of which are bio supplements. I think a nice variety of supplements is a good thing, but don't want to begrudge a chef from his/her ability to customize and experiment on their food. So I dunno, I just bristle at others suggesting removing things from another class.
In any case, a lot of people here are talking about bio supplements only in terms of the broad spectrum nutrients and their effect on brandy in particular. Comments like non-BE brandy for pve, BE brandy for PVP. Well, you're forgetting about hyper yeast.For a PVEer, obviously getting extra, huge, enormous, humongous stacks is very very benefitial, and from a chef's standpoint it would seem to be a no-brainer in terms of bang for your buck. Instead of non-BE brandy for PVE and BE brandy for PVP, I'd say more like Broad Spectrum for PVP, Hyper Yeast for PVE. But then again I'm somewhat biased
I think this really is a pride issue - most of us want to make and sell the premium items, and right now to do that you need BE additives. There is still a market for unenhanced food. It may or may not be a very big market, but the real problem is that it feels like a step down.
Aside from that, I don't really see a problem the way things are. It won't be long before most players know what an enhanced brandy made with good resources looks like. Players that want the best won't be impressed with something thrown together from poor resources. Other players will recognize that they don't really need the highest buffs and will look around for a better value. Can a poor quality enhanced brandy really compete with high quality unenhanced when it comes to overall value?
Ezran wrote:
My Proposed (Increase food range 2x, decrease additive 2x)
Average Resource + No Additive
+12 camoflage
Best Resources + No Additive
+17 camoflage
Average Resources + Average Additive
+18.3 camoflage
Best Resources + Average Additive
+27.2 camoflage
Average Resources + Best Additive
+21 camoflage
Best Resources + Best Additive
+29.75 camoflage
I agree with increasing the range on stat foods, but I don't see why the range on the BE additives should be reduced. What is wrong with having average chef + great BE do as well as great chef + average BE?
If anything, I think decreasing the range between good and bad additives will only discourage BE's from making a business of selling them, and that will just hurt the chefs that don't have a BE alt/friend/etc.
Mutton
Nahualli wrote:
You : proponent of the old ways, favors more control over the end result of the food crafting process, favors limiting the potency of BE additives because it's reducing the Chef's status to that of being at the mercy of a BE if he/she wants to produce top of the line goods. HaveI encompassed the basic idea of what you're saying?
Ok then,
Me : proponent of the new ways, favors interdependency of one class to another, doesn't believe the current setup is a "crippling dependency" as was stated but feels that the system could use some minor tweaking. However, given SOE's track record for *minor tweaking* instead chooses not to remain hopeful that things will change because, let's face it, they seldom do. We had our 15 minutes of fame. It's pretty much over now. Look at how the BE's got treated after their revamp. When their issues were brought up a second time the response was pretty much "We gave you guys power, be happy with it"
Nah, you are oversimplifying the position of the 'older' chefs here in a big way. Nobody is complaining about the interdependency, just the lack of personal skill. I chose to become a chef because I wanted a crafting profession and I liked the set-up for chef. I was working on making my way up when the new stuff hit test and found that this new system and the variety of buffs was an amazing addition. However, I have two problems with the BE interdependency.
1) BE is a busy profession already, and a rare one. This makes it very difficult to find BE supplements if you do not have an alt ora BE friend already. I have one friend who is BE on my server and he is busy enough with making pets and tailor cloths that he barely can help me out. I have spent a lot of time traveling Intrepid looking for any BE vendor to buy supplements, and they aren't there. Again, I really prefer to see interdependencies, but when there is nobody to make the stuff you need it is a 'crippling' situation. I am hoping that the supply/demand will increase the number of BE's and it does seem to be happening, so this should resolve itself.
2) As the older chefs have said, there is no skill involved in making BE food.If I have a BE who puts in some better stuff than your BE, I can make a better product than you no matter how good your resources are. Our final product should have more to do with our effort than the BE effort.
Message Edited by Ja-van on 02-26-2004 08:56 AM
SitructheGhost wrote:
Nah, you are oversimplifying the position of the 'older' chefs here in a big way. Nobody is complaining about the interdependency, just the lack of personal skill. I chose to become a chef because I wanted a crafting profession and I liked the set-up for chef. I was working on making my way up when the new stuff hit test and found that this new system and the variety of buffs was an amazing addition.
Please stop taking what I say out of context. Contrary to what you may think the whole point of my last post was to try to find some common ground with some of the people on this board I'm at odds with, not to rehash the issues or to write a dissertation on class interdependencies. Of course I'm oversimplifying, it's for the sake of conversation.