Chef Archive
Thread: Proposal on reducing BE's contribution to food effectiveness
So you want to add an extra experimentation step for the additives that you create using the BE Supplements. This correct? Just sounds like more of a chance to crit fail to me. Besides...what would you experiment on in the additive? Just have one line? Click the points and pray? Whats the point of that and how does that increase your "ownership" of your food? If it gets to the point where you don't "need" the supplement, well you won't get it. Noone will make it. There are better things to spend those expensive resources on. Tailor tissues, and pet stims come to mind. Not to mention Cloning.
Seems to me that we're just talking about the "basic" BE supplements that we can provide. Anybody have some experience with the specialized stuff? Like the stuff that effects filling, flavor, etc. What's that like?
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
But what I can't stomach is all the whining about how bad your dependency is on BE. Face it, chef is one of the least dependent crafting class in the game. You guys have been spolied for a very long time in this reguard (although you certainly had your share of problems as well), and you're just not used to it, but everyone else has been living with it for a long time so get used to it. You should just be glad that your dependency is an optional one, not a required one as other professions have.
And I think what's happening is that all this whining is setting up one of the most antagonistic seller/supplier relationships in the game. You just simply don't see any of this antagonism between tailors and BE's, and as I mentioned before tailors are much more dependent on BE's than you guys are.
You guys are making great products, credits flow like water, your skills are highly in demand, and you are able to mark up the tissues you buy from BE's to further enhance your profitability in every case. So aside from some balance issues which was what this thread was originally about, why all the whining about your BE dependency? Can't we just get along?
Some of us see this perfectly. We adapt. Everyone else just whines
-Nah-
Nahualli wrote:
Hahaha.. oh please.. before the revamp you were just a Fishak Whore, now you're a Vasarian Brandy Whore. Because that's really what this all stems from isn't it? Vasarian Brandy? I *know* this isn't about Kanali Wafers.. it's all about that damn brandy
Actually, this has nothing to do with Brandy. I'm quite happy with brandy, with or without BE additives.
This has everything to do with the skill buffs. I love the idea, but there's not enough range to make the use of good resources worth the effort. My orignal post looks at extremes though, let's compare the average chef to a great chef (Possibly a more Realistic comparison)
I'm going to assume an average chef or BE can get 50% Experimentation after they use their average resources and average experimentation.
Now:
Average Resource + No Additive
+9.5 camoflage
Best Resources + No Additive
+12 camoflage
Average Resources + Average Additive
+19.5 camoflage
Best Resources + Average Additive
+24.6 camoflage
Average Resources + Best Additive
+20.9 camoflage
Best Resources + Best Additive
+26.4 camoflage
In my opinion, the values with no additive and average additive are so close to the same, it's not worth the effort of finding good resources. The only time resources make a significant difference is when an excellent additive is used. To me, that means a chef is completely dependant on BEs to see any change in their food. I love some interdependance between professions, but this is a complete and total interdependance. Without excellent BE tissues, all chefs are basically the same.
My Proposed (Increase food range 2x, decrease additive 2x)
Average Resource + No Additive
+12 camoflage
Best Resources + No Additive
+17 camoflage
Average Resources + Average Additive
+18.3 camoflage
Best Resources + Average Additive
+27.2 camoflage
Average Resources + Best Additive
+21 camoflage
Best Resources + Best Additive
+29.75 camoflage
There's still no doubt that BE enhanced food is still better. Average resources with additives produce much better food. The range of effect based on the quality of BE additives has not changed dramatically. However, the final say in the quality of the food is put back into the hands of the chef. Good chef will be able to differentiate themselves from average chefs.
First off, I am not the one throwing around insults. For you to come at me like that....
/shakes head
You've got this all wrong. Basically you are making lots of assumptions. With you being a BioEngineer and a Chef, I figured that you would know better...
/shrug
Ok. Lets start with the crap on a stick argument. Would you seriously go around "hooking" up your friends with crap on a stick and be satisfied? Or would you rather try to hook them up with the best foods/drinks that you possibly could? I am not arguing against having BioEnhancements completely removed from the process (although eliminating the option from certain foods couldn't hurt) - I think some interdependency can be good... again.. only if it is "balanced." Again, I repeat myself, my opinion (as well as the opinion of a majority of the Chefs responding to this thread) is that there needs to be some adjustments done to bring BALANCE back to the Chef creation process. I pay the same amount of money as you do to play this game - so why does it make me a whiner to "suggest" alterations to my profession to make it more enjoyable? You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine. We come here to post our ideas, and not all of our ideas are going to equate. But for you to lose your temper (ala the Vasarian whore comment) and just come here to ruffle alot of feathers, then please, ask yourself - which one of us suffers from an inferiority complex?
Now, on a productive note: I think that Neni just about hits it on the head (for now). There is a "fair" market out there for non-BioEnhanced products in the PvE market. But this is short term. Soon enough you are going to have enough Chefs making BioEnhanced products, that it won't make much sense to continue making foods without BioTissues. There will be enough competition among Chefs that the price of BioEnhanced products will drop - leaving NonBioEnhanced foods to be negligible. And that brings me to the "balance the process now" mantra. That brings me to the, make Chefs in "charge of their own destiny" mantra. Hence the "Proposal on reducing BE's contribution to food effectiveness"
First of all learn to read. I was lashing out at Ja-Van who felt it necessary to start the name-calling with the moronic idiot comment.
Second.. I pay as much money as you do to play the game so why should I have to spend a ridiculous amount of time chasing down premium ingredients? I do not need that sense of pride in my video game accomplishments. Maybe making virtual cheese and crackers beats your flagella, but we don't all have the same agendas. The argument can be turned around easily so my suggestion : don't bring it up.
As for the crap on a stick... I would hook my friends with whatever I could make and not feel bad because hey! it's free.. and let's take a step back even further.. to begin with I don't consider it crap on a stick so that's where our division in perception begins. You've already made the assumption your food is crap on a stick, I have not. I like the food as it is the additives are a nice touch when I get around to making them.
Yes, you are correct in one thing, as a Bio-Engineer AND Chef I would know better. I do !! I know that I have about 5 different things that all need the same pool of organic resources to craft. I know that Chef additives are not what I was put on earth to make. I've got other stuff I can be working on.
Why do you think the market for non BE is short term? Just curious. We have the same limiting factors IE organics cannot be auto-harvested. The same bottlenecks for resources now (domesticated meat comes to mind) will still be there. I am intrigued why you think this is a short term benefit only. On the contrary I think that once the FOTM craze wears off and people move on to the next popular revamped class things will settle down and the vast majority of people will realize that hey ! it's no longer worth it to pay 350k for a crate of VB when the 35k crates work almost as well.
Anything else?
-Nah-
Fact of the matter is...BE's are a PURE support class. Pets are all but totally useless, especially after the droid invasion. Cloning is the most FUBARD thing in the game. Really, how effective is a lvl10 pet? MCH can get their own. Not to mention the hassle of getting DNA samples and the total "shot in the dark" way we've been given tocreate them. I took up master BE to do two things...Make Tailor Tissues and Chef Tissues. That's all the BE has. OK, maybe pet stims, but that's it.
Tailor clothes are pointless eyecandy fluff. You could run around in your underwear. We have NO experimentation and resource quality TOTALLY DOESN'T matter. What makes clothes valuable? BE tissues. At least Chef's can still make effective, wanted food and actually "craft" it. You don't need BE tissues to make your stuff have a purpose, but it DOES make it better.
The system now is fine. BE supports both Tailor and Chef and THIS actually gives the BE some purpose other than making pets that will be deemed an exploit and banned from your datapad. Really Chefs...you can't make a career out of this profession. Grab another complimentary profession and quit trying to swing the nerf bat. Shop around and meet some people and quit trying to be so self contained.
I have a BE Enhanced Clothing AND a Chef Supply Vendor. Look me up, I'm on Eclipse/Naboo. City is Nu'Maoi and my tent is right by the shuttleport. All the trim you could want for 2k a crate. All the supplements you could want for 35k, 30k, and 25k. All at least 200 factory runs. Really, stop complaining and just figure it out. Chef's got a GREAT deal this time. Make it work and watch the profits roll in.
Message Edited by sciguyCO on 02-25-2004 02:18 PM
PBN wrote:
To Nah,
You may enjoy the status quo, as stated above. However, many of us "old-thymers" do not. You may not enjoy the search for the best ingredients or knowing that if you bring a certain subcomponent to a minimum level of x is nutrition or flavor, you'll get the additional margin on your product, but that has always been the nature of this profession. Given that, I'm surprised you decided to try it. Or was your motivation not the art, but something more base, such as credits? People may consider it an elitist view, but it's responses like yours that distinguish you as a cook. What you can produce with whatever template doesn't matter. It's a love of the profession itself that makes one a chef.
It took me almost 3 months to master Chef. The fact I didn't post here, despite your interpretation of it, means NOTHING. When the changes came around I ditched my Squad Leader (talk about a useless class) and sent my other character to the Ranger tree in hopes of helping me harvest organics. When I realized it was going to be easier to secure meat than BE additives, I backtracked and went BE instead. Motivated by credits? Hardly. I had a character who was already more than halfway to BE it was a very easy transition to go from Ranger to BE. I was already a Chef on the other account for nearly 3 months before the revamp. Neo-Chef? Call me what you want. The fact I adapted to the changes and like them shouldn't make my opinion any less valid. I had to earn every last red xp point to get Master Chef, same as you. Same as everyone else.
Because you subscribed to the game earlier than I did, you're more valuable to the community? That's anyone's guess. Frankly I say no. You chose to be resistant to the changes I chose to embrace them. As far as I'm concerned you haven't earned the right to tell me when and where my opinion is valid. The best you can do is ignore me.
If I were SirVimes I would be insulted. All that work, all that feedback, and all the "old-thymers" doing nothing but collectively bemoaning their glory days. If you want to take credit for the class take it all the way. If you want me to blunt I will be : it's your fault the class is the way it is now. Since your input was SO valuable and SO needed you should have done something earlier. Now it's too late to do much.
-Nah-
I'm a little tired of being accused of whining... I'm not a whiner, nor am I flailing or screaming. I've been a chef a very, very long time; our opinions as chefs (not as BEs or BE-mules) were asked for, so I gave mine. And really what I see are BEs cackling gleefully that they have us in their hands, and accusing us of whining for objecting to the situation. As I pointed out, you probably don't think it's crippling, but trying to run a bakery sans a BE alt and cheap / mass BE tissues (which you have), well that IS crippling ME, even with a clientele I've been establishing for many many months. I don't think that makes me stupid, or selling myself short, or an old timer bemoaning the glory days - it just makes me honest, my numbers don't lie. Maybe my server has more gimps and the non-BE market has already bottomed out. Maybe our playstyles are different, since you say you don't even make crates - many of us do. And no, it's not just about brandy, it's about all of the useful foods that people only want if enhanced (BOH in big stacks or with longer duration, for example). Kanali wafers just don't fall into that category.
You just simply don't see any of this antagonism between tailors and BE's, and as I mentioned before tailors are much more dependent on BE's than you guys are.
I'm also a tailor, and I continue to disagree with that assertion. Individual tailors do not need hundreds of crates of enhancements every week to stay in business or compete with alts. Tailors do not have to sell in the astonishing bulk that we do. Moreover, BE tissues provide something additional, outside of the tailor's purview, akin to a permanent skill tape - not akin to doubling the effectiveness of the original product to the point that no one wants the old product. As would be the case if the BE tissue doubled the potential colors for clothing, or if optional casks/barrels doubled the damage on WS's weapons. Of course, I also don't see BEs on the tailor boards calling people whiners.
I don't think anyone here is to 'blame' for what's happened. Read back - there were hundreds of posts on the proposed changes before the patch, and a lot of people argued very strongly and logically against them, or for alternate versions. That those changes went in anyway is a testament to Verant's deaf ears - not to the idea that the Vimes, or any longtime chef, didn't object enough. By the by, there's not really any point to continuing in a discussion, Nah, if you are stating upfront you're not listening to anyone's opinions on your opinions, and telling us to ignore you.