Chef Archive

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guessit wrote:

You are using a strawman arguement. You are trying to invalidate an opposing position by exaggerating THEIR arguement. Nowhere in my arguement did I EVER claim to want any of the things you are mentioning.

Please refrain from using the Strawman Fallacy. If you want further clarification on how your arguement is false, feel free to look up the "strawman arguement".

Well it seems you feel that you knowledge of debating techniques give you the right to invalidate his point? Its a valid statement non the less, restictions are put in place to prevent imbalance. Foods have they're achilles heal in filling, who do you want to remove them other than the "it improves gaming" experience, which i'll get onto. If you could give me any reasonable statement as to why the system needs changing i'm all ears.

"2. As has already been proven over and over and over again.....if there IS an exploit......it WILL be exploited."

Ah yes, because it has been repeated mindlessly as a mantra, somehow it is more valid.

But what you neglect to see is that an exploit is something you can get banned for. Theoretically someone can dupe too, it isnt a part of the game and they can be banned for it.

No one is asking for an exploit.

So because people can be caught for these exploits it means that its ok to mean setting them out there. Exploits are bugs used to ones advantage, no matter how much testing is done cracks in the code will show up, its inevitable in what is such a huge program. No one was asking for exploits when the last merchant changes went through, but that happened to un earth a old credit duping exploit. The statement is right, there are people in this game who will do anything to win, if a new exploit were to arise from these changes it would be fixed, but it could potentially ruin the gaming experience which you want this change to go through to preserve.

"Why wouls we even consider ricking exploits in a PvP system that is already screaming to be revamped?"

A possibly valid point, however, are you suggesting that you would PROMOTE the changes to the filling system? Or are you simply taking a "pro sony" stance to justify further procrastination?

Since you do not seem to promote the filling changes in the first place; why would you want them added at all?

Consideration is not a natural progession towards wanting. I do not want these changes to go through but i'm not un willing to hear arguments for it. I think you should try and do the same.

"And any decay on items from death it quite easy to avoid if you play ahead for it when exploiting."

Tell me something ... if you were to run to the bank, take off all your gear, drag and drop every piece into the bank, run over and get your wounds healed ... then listen to a musician to heal your bf ... then go get buffed, then run back to the cantina to get musician buffs; how would you POSSIBLY be saving time? You see, in this case the exploit would give questionable benefits.

I recall once this powergamer had claimed he knew the "best way" to get fsxp... part of his tactic was dying to save time to get to the starport. We all laughed at him; why would you gimp yourself with MORE downtime, just to wait for a shuttle? It would be simple asshattery with questionable benefits.

It is the same way with the "suicide to be able to eat your canape 30 seconds earlier."

Look at the interactions in the game already;

A typical hunters day would go something like this; make sure you have all the items you need, if not... shop for them. (possibly an hour or two shopping) Ensure your battle fatigue is not high, if it IS high, go to the cantina (another 5-10 minutes), go to medical and get your wounds healed (5-10 minutes) go over and get a doc buff (can be up to 30 minutes), go BACK to the cantina and get a musician buff (another 10 minutes)... buy a ticket, and hope your shuttle is there... if your unlucky you get a solid 5 minute wait on top of that.

So just by logging on and wanting to hunt, you are signing up for basically the first hour of time running around. You die, and you are looking at a similar downtime... AND loss of buffs, AND time wasted in the entire HOUR you spent getting yourself ready for the hunt.

I'm sorry but have you heard of insuring or cloning? If you insure your items and clone the dmg done to you or your equipment is minimal at best. Also if you clone in pvp and die while overt you get zero decay if killed by a factioned npc or pc. So you walk into a opposing factions base and lets the npc's do they're work. Very easy way to do it. Also talking about the strawman argument, that is a very extreme reprisentation of a hunters day, i could if i so wished log on, get buffed, and be hunting with in 15mins. This maybe server depedant but if i can't find a guild doc to buff me then they're are always buffers at theed or coronet.

The wait times on chef foods are pretty high already, adding them post-mortem is just preposterous.

There's a point to the wait, limitations, a balance game must have them to keep balance, while it may not be game breaking it could be detremental. I honestly don't see how waiting 30m -45m for your stomach to clear is that bad. This is a RPG not a fps, they're are ment to be waits, hard work, progression. Not instant action uberness. We already have some of the most effective and readily available mind buffs (which is basically the main thing with chef) in the game, taking away the one disadvantage of them is stupid.

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Message Edited by Higginsis on 10-02-2004 08:10 PM

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Minotauro wrote:

Im not sure if the majority of you know what i mean by "zerging".

As pvp is now, in the GCW in player cities there will be a base(s). Like 50m away, the defending city will place there cloner. This allows people to die, and run instantly back out of the cloner back into action. Also, when you clone where your data is stored, you dont get big BF, wounds, and when you die in pvp you dont decay. So for example...

Base is being raided....

defenders are there, and cloned. Attackers have control of the base. Defending CM, continues to die, fully rebuff, eat there stuff again, and run out and disease/poison. He dies, he does it all over again 15 seconds later. This is a huge problem as is without letting people eat all there food again. If you dont have filling, you wont even need a doctor to be running out of the cloner with 3k hams...you can do it on food alone. Not just CM's would benifit from this either, that was just my example.

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I do know what you mean and my BE alt took part in a base take down right accross from one of those cloning centers. I call that home field advantage and there is nothing wrong with that. You can set up your base and cloning center the same way.

BTW get a master rifleman to use strafeshot2 on the unbuff zerg leaving the cloning facliity. Works very well.

"Higginsis wrote; Well it seems you feel that you knowledge of debating techniques give you the right to invalidate his point? Its a valid statement non the less,"

His point was NOT valid because nobody advocated what he said. He resorted to the use of a fallacy, and I called him out on it. You appear to know that his statement is false; a false statement cannot be used as a valid means of arguement!

"So because people can be caught for these exploits it means that its ok to mean setting them out there."

Message Edited by guessit on 10-03-2004 05:38 AM

"The purpose of my response was to show that sometimes waiting for something is purposeful and useful, and even enhanced the value of another item. This is the case with food. I did not mean it literally, and it is not a strawman argument."

Oh it wasa classicstrawman fallacy, because it exaggerated the opposing position. It is easy to make a strawman, and easy to accidently do it. There are strawman fallacies all over the place, tv, politics, etc. It is the worst fallacy because you FEEL like you really got 'em good, but you really didnt.

"I think you may not be fully aware of how the game mechanics work."

9 pieces of armor with a 7 second swaptime between items, plus the time it takes to drag and drop it. A 2 minute process.And then you would have to produce the items again later. That seems to me to be a tedious process. Though I confess, I had not known about the droid as a roving bank method.

But I dont see anyone else doing this in pvp. So is it just a few people using this?? Most peopleI ask about droids look atme crosseyed as they arent even aware of half the things a droid can do.

Plus, forgetting a step along the way, then needing armor later, would be a real winner of a fatal mistake. How long does an unarmored, unbuffed pvper last against a rifleman? All of about2 shots?

I carry all kinds of things on my pvper, tools, etc. All kinds of stuff decays, and I pay for it to be insured because it is too much trouble to shuffle it between my bank and my inventory. With all the things it requires to pvp, and if you have a side profession(smuggler, doc, etc)you are going to be carrying quite a few things. All of these decay when you die, and all of them add to the cost of insurance, and I do insure them because it is too much of a pain in the ass to put them all in the bank and take them out when i need them.

"I think the faster paced argument is a very persuasive one though....and Meparch is right: Many people DO want faster gameplay."

Well, at least we can agree on something. Last time I died, I realized it took 45 minutes all told to get back into the field. 25 minutes of waiting in doc line, and guess what? The doc went ld while i only had 5 of 6 buffs! No other game I know of which has pvp, has this kind of downtime.

Im not sure of whether people cancel over things like this, but it definitely adds to the pile of other reasons to cancel.

Do I think sony will fix it anytime soon? Probably not. Remember xp loss in EQ? This is another kind of time-wasting plan to add tediousness to the gameplay experience. We only have so many days in this life, and I for one dont want to lose out waiting out downtimes.

There is so much material to work with here its hard to know where to start. I think we need to keep this on track. You appear to be approaching this debate as a personal battle with me, and there is no need for that. I will continue to debate your ideas however, and not your debate style. If you do not care for my debate style, that is fine. I dont think I have attacked you personally, so lets keep it to the issues instead of the differences in how we all convey our opinions.

-"He resorted to the use of a fallacy, and I called him out on it." I did no such thing, and this debate is not about me. You clearly stated that adding extra downtime makes gameplay tedious. I disagreed, and gave examples where delay, wait, and downtime do not make the game tedious. You may call that argument invalid, but it does not make it so.

-"He waspretending to be FOR a change, when his entire diatribe left no doubt thathe is solidly against, point by point. There was no realconsideration there, it was a false pretense." I believe there was a misunderstanding of my post here, and once again I see an attack directed at me. There is no need for that. I was not pretending to be 'for' anything, and as a result there can be no false pretense. I did ask questions, and attempted to show why a particular viewpoint was alien to me. These are not invalid means to make my position more clear. I do anything in my power to make my point clear, so that there is as little confusion as possible. Its not about being right, but about conveying your ideas effectively.

-"You arent apologizing;yourstatementis a weak and veiled attempt at condescention. But lets evaluate your statement further; you are saying you are "sorry but" as a means to point out a weakness in my arguement and solidify your position. However, you reveal your ownweakness; comprehension." Here you attack yet ANOTHER poster in this thread. This is not necessary. Once again, feel free to disagree with him, but there is no need to devote an entire paragraph to ridiculing him instead of actually addressing his point.

Guessit, I have no interest in debating you. I am here to debate and discuss whether filling should be changed ingame. There is no need for personal attacks. You appear to be an intelligent individual, and as a result I am glad to have you here to discuss this important issue.

So back to the important part of this thread:

First, I wil simply refer to my post above this one for my most recent additions to this conversations. In addition I will add that I understand that many other games do have a different approach to death, however I am not sure that we should do the same in SWG. All of these games are RPGs, but they each have their own feel. I simply think there should be a penalty for death. We have removed corpse runs and other obstacles. Throwing anything you want into a droid will prevent decay, and insurance can offset most damages. There are other reasons I disagree with changing the filling system, but most have been outlined in the post above and others.

Before going in farther, I would like to clarify that my post above was made before Guessits most recent post.

"Higginsis wrote; Well it seems you feel that you knowledge of debating techniques give you the right to invalidate his point? Its a valid statement non the less,"

His point was NOT valid because nobody advocated what he said. He resorted to the use of a fallacy, and I called him out on it. Why would you turn around and support a known fallacy? You appear to know that his statement is false; a false statement cannot be used as a valid means of arguement!

Ok seen as your determined not to actually answer any of my points, or for that matter anyone elses, rather you just seem to want to pick apart our phrasing. The use of that point was to show by your logic what the game without would be like. Also how is it a false statement. The statement of "there are limits imposed on us to give balance" is a correct one. I really don't see why you can't get past the way the point are being posted and get to the meat of them. You have still failed to answer or state how the statement is false.

"So because people can be caught for these exploits it means that its ok to mean setting them out there."
First of all, changing the filling timer would be a legitamite means of altering game mechanics to make death downtime less tedious. That isn't an exploit. Nobody advocated one.

No put as i pointed out exploits usually arise from such changes, my example of the merchant changes making a old credit duping exploit possible again. I know you don't want a exploit but things will arise from these changes that weren't intended.

Furthermore, claiming that "if we make it possible to exploit, people will" is a dubious arguement at best. It is "possible" to dupe, and people get banned for it. If you exploit, you do so at your own risk.

People who PvP or just some people in general will do whatever it takes to win. You know why no one dupes credits atm? Because they're isn't a exploit that lets you do it. If there were they'd be alot more of it.

"Consideration is not a natural progession towards wanting. I do not want these changes to go through but i'm not un willing to hear arguments for it. I think you should try and do the same."

He was pretending to be FOR a change, when his entire diatribe left no doubt that he is solidly against, point by point. There was no real consideration there, it was a false pretense.

Where did he pretend to be for it? I saw no other statement that would suggest it other than he would consider it. How can you tell from that little statement that he was feigning support.

"I'm sorry but have you heard of insuring or cloning? If you insure your items and clone the dmg done to you or your equipment is minimal at best. "

Ah yes, the "Im sorry but..." condescention. An old trick, but today it wont work.

Why do people pretend to apologize during a disagreement? You arent apologizing; your statement is a weak and veiled attempt at condescention. But lets evaluate your statement further; you are saying you are "sorry but" as a means to point out a weakness in my arguement and solidify your position. However, you reveal your own weakness; comprehension.

Again you attack my phrasing. If you find the phrase "i'm sorry" at the start of a sentence so condensending then thats your problem, i used it merely as a passing phrase. If you feel that this some how shows my weakness for comprehension then you're very much mistaken. You again have shown your williness to point out my style of writing rather than answer of my questions. Again trying to undermine my position making it seem like my points should be overlooked and ignored.

You see, I had established(which you neglected to read or comprehend) even with cloning and insurance, for the USUAL pvper one death adds up to a minimum of 30 minutes of getting buffs, and a maximum of an hour if they want to be in tip-top shape.

I really feel to see the argument here. You grossly over exergerated the waiting times for a pvper. With pvp cloning you get 1 wound point and 3 bf, which can be heal in literally seconds. I don't know about the way your serious pvpers operate but most of the big guild have a cantina with a mind buffing bot on stand by, meaning healing and mind buffs are readily available, along with the doctors and other medics that accompany a pvp team. So if you have to wait for 30 mins getting buffed, thats not really any concern of ours, as it has nothing to do with foods.

"I honestly don't see how waiting 30m -45m for your stomach to clear is that bad."

Really? The established pvp downtime in other games upon death is about 10 minutes. EQ has a res timer of about 5 minutes, and DAOC has a res timer of 5 minutes as well. Yet, even in these games players decided this was TOO MUCH, and there are SPECIAL SKILLS which erase the res penalty before 5 minutes!

So the fact is that 10 minutes would be above the accepted standard in rpgs, let alone 30 minutes to an hour as you propose. It is completely unreasonable and punitive to every legitamite player out there.

What do you mean "how i propose" i'm proposing no different than the system that is in place. And many pvpers seem to get on fine atm. Pointing out how other mmo's work is just not worth it, this game is a different game to those, maybe the same genre but a totally different style. The comparison between the games is not a argument to base this on, they have their way, this has its own way, i don't see why cos they have it so, we should too.

"This is a RPG not a fps"

Ah yes, exaggeration as a means to argue; nobody ever said the game SHOULD be an fps. Hell, I have never played an FPS!

I merely used FPS as an example of a arcade style game that lets you have instant action, which this is not. This is a rpg, its about exploration, leveling and to a certain extent waiting. If you can't get over this fact then your playing the wrong game.

I declare your arguement farmed like an ER.

/loot all;
/harvest meat;
/wave;

Nice to see which level you're playing at. Last time i checked this was a debate, not about "winning".

Gotcha. Well I do think we at least know WHERE it is that we disagree. That is a good thing.

Just to add, while i'm enjoying this debate, as vomit said there are to many things getting aimed at people, not idea's, which isn't really beneficial to this process.

Can we try and keep it clean from now on? It would make this go smoother.

Ok guessit, since you seem fully determined to turn this into a slanging match then fine, but i'm not gonna take part in this discussion while you're throwing insults around because someone disagree's with you.

Have fun.