Chef Archive
Thread: Debate thread: Filling remaining on cloning
ChefVomit
Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:19 pm
#14
Higginsis wrote:
But that 3% are the ones using the majority of ours foods. Who in PvE ever uses Vercupti or synthsteak or thak apart from pvpers?
PvEers needs brandy and ahrisa, maybe sometimes canape. Unless they're doing things like the dwb but still.
I understand what you are saying, but let me ask you a question: Are you saying that PvPer's dont buy Vercupti, thak, and synth from you?
I doubt that is the case. Most likely, they buy ALL of those off you fairly regularly. So how is the current system hurting you? I am not being sarcastic at all, I am simply asking a valid question. If we are to ask the devs to take time to fix something for us, then it better be something that will really improve gameplay AS A CHEF. So please explain how this would truly improve your gameplay, because that is one of the problems I have with changing this.
PvPers already buy these food from us, and yes....they dont like the fact that they keep their filling. But they also have spice, can rebuff instantly after death, and get right back in the fight. All of these facts still dont stop them from buying these foods from us in quantity. To me, that indicates a balance. I dont want to ask the devs to change something simply to make it easier to die and start fighting again. Thats doesnt do much to improve the day to day activities of a Chef, and once again.....there are exploit possibilities with a fix like this.
And I would also argue that PvEers buy at least as much if not a great deal more food than PvPers. Everyone by default is a PvEer from time to time. And PvEers - at least on my server - do still buy synthsteak quite often. But the overwhelming majority of players do NOT take part in the GCW or PvP systems. They play the game as an RPG and have a great time. They are not the most vocal, or the most famous. But they are easily the majority of players, and the majority of our customers in most cases. That has been my experience anyway.
Then again, if you are one of the more expensive Chefs on the server, chances are you only get the elite PvPers shopping at your shop, which makes sense since you most likely provide some of the best food on the server if your prices are higher than average. So maybe that is the case. Hard to say as things vary from server to server so much.
ChefVomit
Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:50 pm
#15
Oh yes, I did see your first post....and I understand your position. I was questioning the points you raised, and not your position personally. I know that you and I agree in many ways on this issue, but you did raise some interesting issues in the post I quoted that I wanted to address for the sake of this discussion.
You are absolutly right that our most vocals are asking for this fix. I dont dispute that, I only ask what that means to us? Its not an easy question....we DO want to please them, but its not as simple as that as you know. They do die more, it does matter to them, it is a bit of a pain. It is all of these things that all of us have experienced that makes this a difficult debate.
Sorry if I came off aggressively in my post. That was not my intent. I debate ideas, not individuals. If the issue at hand is one that I care about, I will approach friend and strangers alike in a debate about their IDEAS.....not who they are personally. Each of us is accomplished in our chosen profession. I dont claim to be any more experienced, and in fact a great deal less so than many of you. Debates and conversations like this can only benefit us.
You are absolutly right that our most vocals are asking for this fix. I dont dispute that, I only ask what that means to us? Its not an easy question....we DO want to please them, but its not as simple as that as you know. They do die more, it does matter to them, it is a bit of a pain. It is all of these things that all of us have experienced that makes this a difficult debate.
Sorry if I came off aggressively in my post. That was not my intent. I debate ideas, not individuals. If the issue at hand is one that I care about, I will approach friend and strangers alike in a debate about their IDEAS.....not who they are personally. Each of us is accomplished in our chosen profession. I dont claim to be any more experienced, and in fact a great deal less so than many of you. Debates and conversations like this can only benefit us.
Higginsis
Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:15 pm
#16
ChefVomit wrote:
Oh yes, I did see your first post....and I understand your position. I was questioning the points you raised, and not your position personally. I know that you and I agree in many ways on this issue, but you did raise some interesting issues in the post I quoted that I wanted to address for the sake of this discussion.
You are absolutly right that our most vocals are asking for this fix. I dont dispute that, I only ask what that means to us? Its not an easy question....we DO want to please them, but its not as simple as that as you know. They do die more, it does matter to them, it is a bit of a pain. It is all of these things that all of us have experienced that makes this a difficult debate.
Sorry if I came off aggressively in my post. That was not my intent. I debate ideas, not individuals. If the issue at hand is one that I care about, I will approach friend and strangers alike in a debate about their IDEAS.....not who they are personally. Each of us is accomplished in our chosen profession. I dont claim to be any more experienced, and in fact a great deal less so than many of you. Debates and conversations like this can only benefit us.
I totatlly understand with the need to state such ideas and never took it as a personal attack, i enjoy these debates and do think its the best way to improve, flesh out and go over problems/suggestion that may arise.
On the need to please the pvper base, well as you said its a tricky one. While the may be the minority, silent they certainly aren't
. But of course this means we cannot ingnore the thoughts/wants of the other groups who use foods. But my main point by raising the PvPer issue was cos as i said this issue effects them the most. Anyone with a medicom of sense and skill can avoid getting killed in PvE (unless a NS elder pulls a stun baton.
) so the filling issue is not a big one for them. As a big PvEer i can honestly say i've never come into a situation where i've died and need my food buffs straight away after death (2 occasions being the DWB and corvette, but we all know they're extreme circumstance) as normally i never die from a PvE situation. Thats why i concentrated on the PvP use of food, as this is their main problem with foods.But i also think that we also need to not look just at pleasing, but as sciguy said, finding a balance. I mean sure getting rid of death filling would please alot of people, but give a adequate balance to food? I know it wouldn't.
I couldn't think of a better system simply because i think this one we have now works well enough aside from a few bugs. But i'm sure alot of you are alot more creative with solutions with this problem then me.
Meplorium
Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:20 pm
#17
There is a saying about making a movie or cartoon that if you understand it, you will be successful. It is "It's about the story stupid". Very simple, direct but true. A similar saying can be used about a video game, but instead of story, it is game play.
So since it is all about "the game play stupid", having a period of time where you can do nothing really plays havoc with the pacing of the game. Slow games or flat out interruptions in game play is a very bad thing. Imagine playing solitaire on your computer and having the game lock your mouse for 30 minutes so you can't play the game. The game becomes annoying, frustrating and hence the game play is stupid. Anyone would get bored and go play another game. Such a game wouldn't be very successful and that is at thecore of why people hate a full death stomach.
Game balance trumps game immersion in the same way game play trumps balance. The two are connected, but if the best you can do is cause the game to be unplayable for a period of time to 'balance' the game, then the task of making a game play well has been completely failed. This 'paused' game in the name of balance is simply not the way to do things.
Balance is important though, as poor game balance leads to stupid play. The question I pose though, is the game unbalanced if the stomach is cleared upon death? My personal opinion is No and here is why.
In PvE you take decay. This is a big draw back to dieing. No one is going to die in PvE and take decay just to clear their stomach. Both decay and the full stomach upon death is a double penalty. First you lose condition on everything you own. Second, you're game gets 'paused' until your stomach clears. Death should hurt, but that decay is enough. The paused game simply takes a death penatly too far. If old packman had a 30 minute delay between when you died and when you got another life, that game would have gone no where. The fact that you lost a life is that game made dieing very undesirable. Same goes with decay, a fully stomach on top of that isn't needed.
In PvP you don't take decay and you can to some exist control when you die in PvP using duels. This is the core of why the stomach doesn't decay. If you need an empty stomach in a hurry, you can just duel and die. If the bug where stat mods remained after death was fixed, then the stacking of stat mods exploit would be gone. The only thing left would be crafters and their port. You can get DB to clear out the port from your system and go back to crafting. Or you can do something else for 45m and continue crafting. I don't see too many people 'exploiting' this and if they did, so what? They can wait, not use port and just make a bunch of schematics, or get DBed. Either way, the schematic is being made as perfect or as unperfect as the crafter wishes it to be. This is a poor agruement in my opinion as it isn't relivent to 99% of game play and doesn't cause an unbalance if performed.
I personally don't think the question should be "Why should stomach clear upon death?". I think the question should be "Why should the stomach be full upon death?". The stomach does add game balance in that you can only take so much food, so food use is limited. Also food doesn't give a 2 - 3.5 hour buff nor give as high of a buff as doctors can give. Food without the full death stomach is well balanced. The full death stomach adds nothing to this game but unwanted pauses.
"It's about the game play stupid", and this game needs faster pacing for better game play.
MilkToast
Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:12 pm
#18
I don't see a problem with the current system. Considering all of the benefits of food, 'filling remainingon cloning' seems like a reasonable side-effect.
guessit
Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:24 am
#19
"The reason you have to wait after the Vercupti wears off is that it's a powerful boost: +1200 HAM is nothing to sneeze at. So to balance that buff size, the devs said "Ok, you get this increase in power, but you can only use it once every 20m." Clearing stomach contents on death would give a player a way to bypass that 20m obligation."
The flaw in this arguement is this; your items decay on death, you gain battle fatigue, and wounds upon death. Adding extra downtime with thefilling ondeath scenario makes death even MORE troublesome than it already is, and indirectly has negative affects pvp as well.
Furthermore, our profession is a consumption based profession. The more they eat, the more we make; more consumption is good for us. Having ourcustomers denied the ability to rebuff themselves and get back into the field, to satisfy some EXTRA food penalty timer is ludicrous.
The fact is that this is one of the many scenarios where it is a bug that could be fixed, but sony will say "no, but its a feature!" just as a cheap excuse.
Facts;
1. Death already has downtimes associated with it, adding in an extra "starvation" penalty just makes gameplay more tedious.
2. The less our customers consume, the weaker our turnover for profits;the lower the demand for ourfood.Bad for us.
3. Our customers WANT to be able to eat upon death ... so instituting this kind ofpenalty on them hurts not only us, but them as well.
So sony has created a situation where the penalty is BAD for the producer, and BAD for the consumer ... what was the reason again? To satisfy the timer requirement for regular foods right?
Theoretically someone could suicide to bypass this timer; yettheoretically someone could suicide in order to warp their ass back to their cloning point, yet this isn't a common practice because death has serious enough penalties attatched to it.
ChefVomit
Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:26 am
#20
So far the new points raised that I want to address in the past few "pro fix" posts have been:
1. Waiting detracts from play/fun/overall game quality
2. There are penalties for death, so people wont die to exploit
3. If we fix this, we will sell more food. So why not fix it?
I will quickly respond to all of these in turn.
1. I dont see waiting as detracting from gameplay at all. Are you suggesting that anyone should be able to master a profession in 5 minutes? Or that jetpack parts should drop from every mob in the game? Or becoming a jedi knight should take less than a day? Or that travel to any part of the galaxy should be instant?
Any type of delay ingame is usually there for a reason....be it balance or to enhance the value of a particular item/goal. With food, we have NO downer, multiple uses, multiple applications, multiple types, and relatively cheap as our "pros". Buffs have extreme power and duration, but high cost upfront (compared to food), and they must be applied by a doctor. Spices are powerful and cheap, but they have a downer. These balancing "cons" to other buffing options are necessary to continue to keep ALL of them popular. Would you support removing the downer from spice? Think hard about what that might meant to you as a Chef.
2. As has already been proven over and over and over again.....if there IS an exploit......it WILL be exploited. Why wouls we even consider ricking exploits in a PvP system that is already screaming to be revamped? And any decay on items from death it quite easy to avoid if you play ahead for it when exploiting.
3. I posted this earlier: Do we really need more sales? I made more than any of my Doctor friends could ever dream of, and I didnt have to sit in a starport all day long buffing people and listening to their whining complaining when you hit them for only 2100 because they have 430 battle fatigue. We already make a ton of cash. We already have tons of customers. We already have multiple products that sell like mad. Is this really enough of a reason to ask the devs to spend time fixing something for us?
I just think we need to think about this practically. The devs are busy. They dont have time to fix everything every profession needs. The fact that we even have an SOE guy posting in here amazes me because we are better off than 90% of the professions out there. Go talk to a Carbineer or a Smuggler if you think Chefs have it bad. Better go armed when you have that conversation.
I DO think there are changes that need to be made to the game. Plates for food. Fixing certain foods. Fixing schematics that are ridiculous. Modifying BE additive schematics. Some new foods. ANY of these would give all of us something new to play around with. What would fixing filling do? Nothing. Not a thing for our gameplay as Chefs except give us a few more sales. Since I think it might have a bad effect on the PvP system, and since I dont think the devs have the time to fix everything we ask for, this is not something I think we need to ask to be fixed.
I DO feel the pain of those that PvP out there. I am not discounting your arguments, merely responding to them. I PvPed on two different servers myself for some time. It WAS annoying to have a full belly after dying, but it never prevented me from getting back out there and fighting. A buff helped, as did some spice. And if I was lucky I stayed alive for another 20 minutes or so until my stomach cleared and then it was ON. LOL. I just dont think this is something that really NEEDS to be changed.
1. Waiting detracts from play/fun/overall game quality
2. There are penalties for death, so people wont die to exploit
3. If we fix this, we will sell more food. So why not fix it?
I will quickly respond to all of these in turn.
1. I dont see waiting as detracting from gameplay at all. Are you suggesting that anyone should be able to master a profession in 5 minutes? Or that jetpack parts should drop from every mob in the game? Or becoming a jedi knight should take less than a day? Or that travel to any part of the galaxy should be instant?
Any type of delay ingame is usually there for a reason....be it balance or to enhance the value of a particular item/goal. With food, we have NO downer, multiple uses, multiple applications, multiple types, and relatively cheap as our "pros". Buffs have extreme power and duration, but high cost upfront (compared to food), and they must be applied by a doctor. Spices are powerful and cheap, but they have a downer. These balancing "cons" to other buffing options are necessary to continue to keep ALL of them popular. Would you support removing the downer from spice? Think hard about what that might meant to you as a Chef.
2. As has already been proven over and over and over again.....if there IS an exploit......it WILL be exploited. Why wouls we even consider ricking exploits in a PvP system that is already screaming to be revamped? And any decay on items from death it quite easy to avoid if you play ahead for it when exploiting.
3. I posted this earlier: Do we really need more sales? I made more than any of my Doctor friends could ever dream of, and I didnt have to sit in a starport all day long buffing people and listening to their whining complaining when you hit them for only 2100 because they have 430 battle fatigue. We already make a ton of cash. We already have tons of customers. We already have multiple products that sell like mad. Is this really enough of a reason to ask the devs to spend time fixing something for us?
I just think we need to think about this practically. The devs are busy. They dont have time to fix everything every profession needs. The fact that we even have an SOE guy posting in here amazes me because we are better off than 90% of the professions out there. Go talk to a Carbineer or a Smuggler if you think Chefs have it bad. Better go armed when you have that conversation.
I DO think there are changes that need to be made to the game. Plates for food. Fixing certain foods. Fixing schematics that are ridiculous. Modifying BE additive schematics. Some new foods. ANY of these would give all of us something new to play around with. What would fixing filling do? Nothing. Not a thing for our gameplay as Chefs except give us a few more sales. Since I think it might have a bad effect on the PvP system, and since I dont think the devs have the time to fix everything we ask for, this is not something I think we need to ask to be fixed.
I DO feel the pain of those that PvP out there. I am not discounting your arguments, merely responding to them. I PvPed on two different servers myself for some time. It WAS annoying to have a full belly after dying, but it never prevented me from getting back out there and fighting. A buff helped, as did some spice. And if I was lucky I stayed alive for another 20 minutes or so until my stomach cleared and then it was ON. LOL. I just dont think this is something that really NEEDS to be changed.
guessit
Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:02 am
#21
"1. I dont see waiting as detracting from gameplay at all. Are you suggesting that anyone should be able to master a profession in 5 minutes?"
You are using a strawman arguement. You are trying to invalidatean opposingposition by exaggerating THEIR arguement. Nowhere in my arguement did I EVER claim to want any of the things you are mentioning.
Please refrain from using the Strawman Fallacy. If you want further clarification on how your arguement is false, feel free to look up the "strawman arguement".
"2. As has already been proven over and over and over again.....if there IS an exploit......it WILL be exploited."
Ah yes, because it has been repeated mindlessly as a mantra, somehow it is more valid.
But what you neglect to see is that anexploit is something you can get banned for. Theoretically someone can dupe too, it isnt a part of the game and they can be banned for it.
No one is asking for an exploit.
"Why wouls we even consider ricking exploits in a PvP system that is already screaming to be revamped?"
A possibly valid point, however, are you suggesting that you would PROMOTE the changes to the filling system? Or are you simply taking a "pro sony" stance to justify further procrastination?
Since you do not seem to promote the filling changes in the first place; why would you want them added at all?
"And any decay on items from death it quite easy to avoid if you play ahead for it when exploiting."
Tell me something ... if you were to run to the bank, take off all your gear, drag and drop every piece into the bank, run over and get your wounds healed ... then listen to a musician to heal your bf ... thengo get buffed, then run back to the cantina to get musician buffs;how would you POSSIBLY be saving time? You see, in this case the exploit would give questionable benefits.
I recall once this powergamer had claimed he knew the "best way" to get fsxp... part of his tactic was dying to save time to get to the starport. We all laughed at him; why would you gimp yourself with MORE downtime, just to wait for a shuttle? It would be simple asshattery with questionable benefits.
It is the same way with the "suicide to be able to eat your canape 30 seconds earlier."
Look at the interactions in the game already;
A typical hunters day would go something like this; make sure you have all the items you need, if not... shop for them. (possibly an hour or two shopping)Ensure your battle fatigue is not high, if it IS high, go to the cantina (another 5-10 minutes), go to medical and get your wounds healed (5-10 minutes) go over and get a doc buff (can be up to 30 minutes), go BACK to the cantina and get a musician buff (another 10 minutes)... buy a ticket, and hope your shuttle is there... if your unlucky you get a solid 5 minute wait on top of that.
So just by logging on and wanting to hunt, you are signing up for basically the first hour of time running around. You die, and you are looking at a similar downtime... AND loss of buffs, AND time wasted in the entire HOUR you spent getting yourself ready for the hunt.
The wait times on chef foods are pretty high already, adding them post-mortem is just preposterous.
Meplorium
Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:26 am
#22
Minotauro wrote:
As someone who my chef isnt my "main" although i have been on him alot more lately then my other toon lol.
Anyways, i used to pvp alot, and even though it might be a small percent of the total population, its the percent this affects most.
That is a great point there that was missed. Not too many people PvP. The reason is because the system is rather flawed. PvP is all about your buffs and equipment, not about skill. It is also quick. You die, your done. If you aren't a power gamer with the uber equipment, PvP just to die quickly and be done isn't attractive.
There are two main events in any PvP type game that makes that game fun, killing and dieing. The more events you have in a game, the more exciting and hence fun it is. That means a lot of killing and dieing. To PvP you must be buffed, and those buffs need to be applied in a hurry to keep the pace of the game going.
If you aren't buffed you will die to a buffed opponent. This causes a sitution where once you lose, you are out of the game. You can try to fight back after cloning, but you are just going to die. I just don't see this as'grief' by buffing and leveling the playing field against the guy that didn't die and is still buffed. Remember the game plays out the same for both people. All I see with a full stomach is that it ends the game. I just don't see where the abuse comes from. If you live longer than 7m, then you don't have that vercupti and you don't get a triple buff brandy unless you live 22m. I don't see clone zerging as an issue, especially if a PvP event was carefully planned out to allow both sides a cloning center. Setting up a game of capture the flag with a rebel banner in one house that everyone has admin on and an imp banner in another house with the same deal can be quite fun. However that needs to be fast placed and that means getting rebuffed fully in a hurry.
The current system unfortunetly relies fully on buffs to do anything, including using your professions' skills. It is a flawed system and the full stomach is one of those flaws.
Just a few other points, don't confuse game progression with game pace. Getting a jet pack is hard and has nothing to do with not being able to play your game for 30-45m just becaused you died. There are reasons for this downtime, but the reasoning behind the down times, although good, doesn't play as intended, hence this debate. They are mostly put in to allow for social interaction but how many people really talked to each other while waiting 9m 45s for the next shuttle? How many people actually strike up a conversation with the AFK entertainer? There are good intentions behind those down times but people just don't play them as intended. Balance passes are all about making adjustments base on how the game mechanics are played.
BTW personally, I can make it as fast as I can sell it. I don't see the 'more sales' as a good reason, rather a con. I hate empty vendors but this would make my vendor empty. It is needed for game pacing though.
I think the point about cloning and resing is a good one. If you res, you still have the stomach filling but no buffs. If you clone, you start fresh. This is a greatway tobalance cloning and resing. If you clone you take the decay and wounds but if you res, your stomach is still full. It would give people a hard choice between asking for a res or just cloning.
Minotauro
Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:54 am
#23
Im not sure if the majority of you know what i mean by "zerging".
As pvp is now, in the GCW in player cities there will be a base(s). Like 50m away, the defending city will place there cloner. This allows people to die, and run instantly back out of the cloner back into action. Also, when you clone where your data is stored, you dont get big BF, wounds, and when you die in pvp you dont decay. So for example...
Base is being raided....
defenders are there, and cloned. Attackers have control of the base. Defending CM, continues to die, fully rebuff, eat there stuff again, and run out and disease/poison. He dies, he does it all over again 15 seconds later. This is a huge problem as is without letting people eat all there food again. If you dont have filling, you wont even need a doctor to be running out of the cloner with 3k hams...you can do it on food alone. Not just CM's would benifit from this either, that was just my example.
Mayor_Woosh
Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:05 pm
#24
There is an old saying we used alot when I was in the Army, "keep it simple stupid".
So in the spirit of that I will keep my answer to this "filling question" simple.
The bottom line is having to wait for your tummy to decay after cloning detracts way to much from play time. Waiting in any way/shape/form in whats supposed to be a fun hobby is a drag.
I can understand your tummy staying full when you are resed by a doctor. Clones however with the same tummy makes no sense and only lessons play time. There should never be a point when I or anyone else for that matter should have to "AFK" for 20-30 minutes because of game mechanics.
Message Edited by Mayor_Woosh on 10-02-2004 12:06 AM
Message Edited by Mayor_Woosh on 10-02-2004 12:08 AM
Minotauro
Sat Oct 02, 2004 12:27 pm
#25
As someone who my chef isnt my "main" although i have been on him alot more lately then my other toon lol.
Anyways, i used to pvp alot, and even though it might be a small percent of the total population, its the percent this affects most. The most "greif" in this game comes from pvp and the GCW. To allow someone constant food buffs, would be a HUGE issue. Not only would you see more Cloner zerging...people would start to die on purpose to clone, rebuff, eat, drink, be good as new....you could almost be non-stop double vercupti'd and brandy...thats pretty big. This would just be abused to much. I would agree to maybe having a chunk of your stomach emptied when you die, but not all.
anyways...
Pros
- More food usage...more food sales
- It realistically makes "sense" to have it empty when you die. (lol how realistic is this game?
- Would make gameplay more enjoyable to not have to not play just because you are to full
Cons
- PVP GREIFING
- Abuse of the system
- more sales.....more vendor stocking
ChefVomit
Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:22 pm
#26
Ahh. I think there have been some misunderstandings. I will address Guessit's comments first:
I am not saying that anyone suggested we should be able to master a profession in 5 minutes. I asked that question, because the original statement was the waiting for something detracts from gameplay. The purpose of my response was to show that sometimes waiting for something is purposeful and useful, and even enhanced the value of another item. This is the case with food. I did not mean it literally, and it is not a strawman argument.
I also, at least as far as I can tell, have not mindlessly repeated any mantras. An exploit is just that, an exploit of the code as you already stated. You also mentioned a scenario where someone runs to their bank to put everything in it etc etc. I think you may not be fully aware of how the game mechanics work.
All a PvPer is going to carry with them out to fight are their weapons, armor, food, spice, and meds. Food, meds, spice, and weapons dont decay, so all that would ever decay are 9 pieces of armor (in a composite set). All they have to do is throw those nine pieces into a droid, and they wont decay. That takes all of 15 seconds, and can be done anywhere. They only stuff that decays is what is in your immediate inventory, and even then its only armor and clothing and a few other items. Armor will most likely be all that is carried when going out the fight that will decay.
All I am saying is that if there is a possibility of an exploit, and one that is as easy as this one, it will be done because PvPers need every possible advantage on their side. Could they be banned for doing it? Probably not. But that does not make it any "less" of an exploit.
Furthermore, I am not taking a pro sony stance (not sure where that came from). Nor am I suggesting procrastination. Procrastination assumes there is something that needs to be done that is being delayed for no suitable reason. Since I do not believe this in any way NEEDS to be done, there is no possibility of procrastination.
Since it appears there are several parts of my positions that you do not agree with, I will simply return to the main - and most important in my eyes - of all of them:
Please explain how this will improve the day to day play for Chefs, other than increased sales (which we dont really need)?
There are a lot of things to be fixed. LOTS. Why is this issue worthy of making a Dev request list?
Meplorium/Meparch (a fellow Starsider Chef) has brought up some excellent arguments for why it SHOULD be changed. Specifically, for faster gameplay and because there is already balance in the game. I think where we differ is that I dont think the gameplay needs to be faster. That is simply my opinion though. I am of the opinion that if you die its ok to have to wait a bit. I think it makes dying more of a serious issue, which to me makes sense. I remember the corpse runs of days past. ROFL. To me that was actually fun. But I may be in the minority.
I think the faster paced argument is a very persuasive one though....and Meparch is right: Many people DO want faster gameplay. AND....if they removed ALL states/effects of food at death as well, I might even consider supporting this further. I think it would still be at the bottom of my list of requested fixes, but it might at least make it on there.
As I said....its a hard issue. I do still believe that there are very few reasons to request dev time for this issue, but I do think this conversation is progressing nicely.
I am not saying that anyone suggested we should be able to master a profession in 5 minutes. I asked that question, because the original statement was the waiting for something detracts from gameplay. The purpose of my response was to show that sometimes waiting for something is purposeful and useful, and even enhanced the value of another item. This is the case with food. I did not mean it literally, and it is not a strawman argument.
I also, at least as far as I can tell, have not mindlessly repeated any mantras. An exploit is just that, an exploit of the code as you already stated. You also mentioned a scenario where someone runs to their bank to put everything in it etc etc. I think you may not be fully aware of how the game mechanics work.
All a PvPer is going to carry with them out to fight are their weapons, armor, food, spice, and meds. Food, meds, spice, and weapons dont decay, so all that would ever decay are 9 pieces of armor (in a composite set). All they have to do is throw those nine pieces into a droid, and they wont decay. That takes all of 15 seconds, and can be done anywhere. They only stuff that decays is what is in your immediate inventory, and even then its only armor and clothing and a few other items. Armor will most likely be all that is carried when going out the fight that will decay.
All I am saying is that if there is a possibility of an exploit, and one that is as easy as this one, it will be done because PvPers need every possible advantage on their side. Could they be banned for doing it? Probably not. But that does not make it any "less" of an exploit.
Furthermore, I am not taking a pro sony stance (not sure where that came from). Nor am I suggesting procrastination. Procrastination assumes there is something that needs to be done that is being delayed for no suitable reason. Since I do not believe this in any way NEEDS to be done, there is no possibility of procrastination.
Since it appears there are several parts of my positions that you do not agree with, I will simply return to the main - and most important in my eyes - of all of them:
Please explain how this will improve the day to day play for Chefs, other than increased sales (which we dont really need)?
There are a lot of things to be fixed. LOTS. Why is this issue worthy of making a Dev request list?
Meplorium/Meparch (a fellow Starsider Chef) has brought up some excellent arguments for why it SHOULD be changed. Specifically, for faster gameplay and because there is already balance in the game. I think where we differ is that I dont think the gameplay needs to be faster. That is simply my opinion though. I am of the opinion that if you die its ok to have to wait a bit. I think it makes dying more of a serious issue, which to me makes sense. I remember the corpse runs of days past. ROFL. To me that was actually fun. But I may be in the minority.
I think the faster paced argument is a very persuasive one though....and Meparch is right: Many people DO want faster gameplay. AND....if they removed ALL states/effects of food at death as well, I might even consider supporting this further. I think it would still be at the bottom of my list of requested fixes, but it might at least make it on there.
As I said....its a hard issue. I do still believe that there are very few reasons to request dev time for this issue, but I do think this conversation is progressing nicely.
Message Edited by ChefVomit on 10-02-2004 05:23 PM