Chef Archive

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sciguyCO wrote:

{Note: The discussion below assumes that 1) The digestion rate gets fixed to 30m per 100 filling and 2) the (confirmed) bug of non-stat buffs remaining after death goes away}

Message Edited by sciguyCO on 10-01-2004 05:07 PM

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Message Edited by Mayor_Woosh on 10-05-2004 06:36 AM

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Morganite wrote:

Ok, here I go...

Well, I am going under the assumption that only the known bug, of stat buffs remaining after deathwill befixed.I further say we could even assume they DONT fix the stat buff bug, as you still cannot reapplythe stat enhancement. The last part is irrelevant to my points on this issue..

Why should the stomach clear at death you ask? This question I can answer simply, it hurts our buisness.

I’m not willing to hurt all the PVP players to sell a few more food/drinks. A fix that hurts another group of people is unacceptable.

A doctor that sell's buff's does so for the opportunity to make money. It was/is considered a game bug when upon death, you are not able to rebuff yourself in a similar fashion via doctors or entertainers enhancement's. Why is there not the ability to do this again to an obviously lesser extent with chef's foods?

Like I’ve stated in the past show me the doctor you can carry in you inventory and I will consider them the same. How come it is ok to spend 45 minutes getting mind buffs and doctor buffs, if you think this is a stretch read the above post. By your theory I should have at least one if not 500+ (uses in a crate of brandy) doctors following me around to buff me as needed instantly. There are huge down sides to both chef items and doctor buffs, I don’t see the solution as combining the best of both. If you want stomach filling to drop at death then something needs to be sacrificed, for example you can’t use food unless you have a chef in your group/near you. Why not I can’t get buffed from a doc in theed when I’m in cornet?

The only arguement you could make for that it that someone would take a death to lower their filling to allow them to use more food. That arguement I think really doesn't need me to take the time to point out the obvious flaws in it. Taking a death to allow for the ability to take more food/drink negates the entire point of using food/drink to begin with, which is to allow you toincrease your ability to avoid cloning in the first place!!! (ok, I rebutted just once there ) I do not propose reducing it if you get rezzed, that would lead to possible exploits to avoid filling. I mean hitting the cloning center. Why is this a point that really requires arguement? you fufill the"penalty" no differently then you did if you lost your entertainer buff's or doctor's buff's. YOU DIED!!! I fail to see how this is an issue that requires debate, and this has nothing to do with the 45/30 emptying issue. The point of receiving any type of enhancement is to avoid death.

I believe that in PVE this would have little effect on game play, almost all talk of this has come down to PVP fighting. I can see a Dueler needing to clear his stomach putting his armor in a droid and letting a friend/enemy kill him to clear it out. This would be exploited in PVP and would have a very damaging effect on many people’s game play experience, but it seems that many people only care if it affects them.

I just can't imagine any gamer telling his hunting partner, "Hey, I have to die, clone, get rebuffed, and come back out here, I cant take another ahirsa". When you die via any other enhancement, your penalty is not getting the full duration of the enhancement you paid for thru you own punishment. Rememberthe bug that if you died while under the effect of a doctor's buff, you couldn't get rebuffed until the duration of the one you lost via death had ran out? That neat little bug was from back about a year ago, it was called a bug, and fixed. I remember being frustrated that coming out of the cloning center, and traveling out to my hunting party, the doc getting the message, "your target already has an enhancement to that attribute". Keeping filling after cloning is essentially giving the same penalty.

Again not even in the same ball park. Doctor/Entertainer buffs are so different from Chef buffs I don’t see why they are always compared.

It should be considered a bug, not a part of the game. You dont need skill points to buy doctor's buff, or entertainer buff's.

No you need to meet up with another character on possibly another planet and hope they are willing to help you for a high price and wait in line 10+ minutes, this would be the down side to doctor buffs.

Your arguementseems to come down to that you think we should be punished for selling our goods off a vendor, instead of going to a starport or cantina and selling single charges hand-crafted on the spot. ( I am not making a personal attack, just illustrate why I would need my high quality droid out! *wink*)

That’s not what I’m saying at all, I was pointing out howmany people aretrying to compare apples to oranges, and howinsane it sounds.

{sense of humor}The only possible ways I can see to really exploit filling emptying upon death would be acrafter using pyro cake/bespin port, crafting in a cloning center, and having someone duel/db them when full. or a doc buffing outside the cloning center, and doing the duel/db/clone to empty his stomach. {end sense of humor}

So even knowing this fix would be exploited you would support it?

We have had to master an elite profession, stockpile large sums of resources like a doctor, andmake sure people knowwe are selling our product, like an entertaineror doctor registering on the planetary map. For a chef to register on the planetary map, we have to pick up another profession entirely! (merchant advertising for our vendor)This is something that hurts our profession, and needs to be repaired. Isn't death the ultimate penalty? Why keep something in that hurts the players who use our wares uneedingly?

Message Edited by Morganite on 10-04-2004 09:50 PM

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Crazyana

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Mayor_Woosh wrote:

This issue is the same as 10 minute shuttle times to me. Quality of time spent in game. Waiting around is not fun....maybe its ok for people who have hours and hours to spend in SWG. Some folks only have a little time to play and waiting around is just not fun.

I agree 100% with you it is about quality of game play, I’d just like to believe we wouldn’t be willing to hurt others quality of game play to increase ours.

Oh on the topic of 45 min decay vs. 30 ?

I think the decay rate is fine and working great for now. Lets not mix apples and oranges here. The issue is how can we better fix clone/stomach decay so players can maximize thier experience in SWG after the die.

Message Edited by Mayor_Woosh on 10-05-2004 06:36 AM

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Crazyana

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Meplorium wrote:

There is a saying about making a movie or cartoon that if you understand it, you will be successful. It is "It's about the story stupid". Very simple, direct but true. A similar saying can be used about a video game, but instead of story, it is game play.

So since it is all about "the game play stupid", having a period of time where you can do nothing really plays havoc with the pacing of the game. Slow games or flat out interruptions in game play is a very bad thing. Imagine playing solitaire on your computer and having the game lock your mouse for 30 minutes so you can't play the game. The game becomes annoying, frustrating and hence the game play is stupid. Anyone would get bored and go play another game. Such a game wouldn't be very successful and that is at thecore of why people hate a full death stomach.

Game balance trumps game immersion in the same way game play trumps balance. The two are connected, but if the best you can do is cause the game to be unplayable for a period of time to 'balance' the game, then the task of making a game play well has been completely failed. This 'paused' game in the name of balance is simply not the way to do things.

Balance is important though, as poor game balance leads to stupid play. The question I pose though, is the game unbalanced if the stomach is cleared upon death? My personal opinion is No and here is why.

In PvE you take decay. This is a big draw back to dieing. No one is going to die in PvE and take decay just to clear their stomach. Both decay and the full stomach upon death is a double penalty. First you lose condition on everything you own. Second, you're game gets 'paused' until your stomach clears. Death should hurt, but that decay is enough. The paused game simply takes a death penatly too far. If old packman had a 30 minute delay between when you died and when you got another life, that game would have gone no where. The fact that you lost a life is that game made dieing very undesirable. Same goes with decay, a fully stomach on top of that isn't needed.

In PvP you don't take decay and you can to some exist control when you die in PvP using duels. This is the core of why the stomach doesn't decay. If you need an empty stomach in a hurry, you can just duel and die. If the bug where stat mods remained after death was fixed, then the stacking of stat mods exploit would be gone. The only thing left would be crafters and their port. You can get DB to clear out the port from your system and go back to crafting. Or you can do something else for 45m and continue crafting. I don't see too many people 'exploiting' this and if they did, so what? They can wait, not use port and just make a bunch of schematics, or get DBed. Either way, the schematic is being made as perfect or as unperfect as the crafter wishes it to be. This is a poor agruement in my opinion as it isn't relivent to 99% of game play and doesn't cause an unbalance if performed.

I personally don't think the question should be "Why should stomach clear upon death?". I think the question should be "Why should the stomach be full upon death?". The stomach does add game balance in that you can only take so much food, so food use is limited. Also food doesn't give a 2 - 3.5 hour buff nor give as high of a buff as doctors can give. Food without the full death stomach is well balanced. The full death stomach adds nothing to this game but unwanted pauses.

"It's about the game play stupid", and this game needs faster pacing for better game play.

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ok this guy hit it right on the nose.

I want to add a few things. I think people are forgetting that this is a game and not real life. This is suppose to be fun and alot of people are quiting this game because it is not fun or becuase of the time it takes to do things in the game. It takes anywhere from 10-30minutes just to get rdy to do something in the game. People who don't have that kinda of time see the game as a waste and will just quit like alot of people I know.

If the filling was removed upon death THEN this would not only allow people to use alot more others foods so that they don't have to have a doctor's buff for every thing. This will also help the issue with BE foods and regular foods and alot new chefs to make there money and sell to noobs who can't afford the foods that we make with BE products now. As a new player you have a account with 250 credits and doing missions for just a 1K or 2 that takes alot of time from new players also. It does not hur anyone for the filling to be gone it really just causes people to stop playing a game inwhich they are paying the money and time to play.

I pvp a lot and for an view that is not about wining a battle but having fun in a battle. Right now the reason pvp is small is because of the amount of time it takes to get rdy for a battle. If people wanted to jump in and go overt with a quick food buff that would be nice and great, but now what's the point of dying or even particiting if I am going to get killed with a full stomach. Sure death have penelties, but food already has a restraint. People can go out and hunt without armor again, and or just everyone get together for a good time without doctors buffs like we use to. Also, I think alot of people are forgetting what it means to be a new player, it takes a very very very very long time to get anywhere in the game doing it by yourself. or even if you get help. And when JTL comes out these are going to be some things to think about. Espcially if you are overt and unbuffed and if your a Jedi food will help alot and save you from the crazy xp loses.

Its about fun people is about enjoying the game and if you look at the post people are leaving of fun/playtime factor. Its not suppose to be work but fun.

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d2a007 wrote:

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Morganite wrote:

Ok, here I go...

Well, I am going under the assumption that only the known bug, of stat buffs remaining after deathwill befixed.I further say we could even assume they DONT fix the stat buff bug, as you still cannot reapplythe stat enhancement. The last part is irrelevant to my points on this issue..

Why should the stomach clear at death you ask? This question I can answer simply, it hurts our buisness.

I’m not willing to hurt all the PVP players to sell a few more food/drinks. A fix that hurts another group of people is unacceptable.

So you are saying people will die and reclone to clear their stomach? wow.

A doctor that sell's buff's does so for the opportunity to make money. It was/is considered a game bug when upon death, you are not able to rebuff yourself in a similar fashion via doctors or entertainers enhancement's. Why is there not the ability to do this again to an obviously lesser extent with chef's foods?

Like I’ve stated in the past show me the doctor you can carry in you inventory and I will consider them the same. How come it is ok to spend 45 minutes getting mind buffs and doctor buffs, if you think this is a stretch read the above post. By your theory I should have at least one if not 500+ (uses in a crate of brandy) doctors following me around to buff me as needed instantly. There are huge down sides to both chef items and doctor buffs, I don’t see the solution as combining the best of both. If you want stomach filling to drop at death then something needs to be sacrificed, for example you can’t use food unless you have a chef in your group/near you. Why not I can’t get buffed from a doc in theed when I’m in cornet?

You still avoid my point that death is the ultimate penalty. I dont see a point in arguing past that.

The only arguement you could make for that it that someone would take a death to lower their filling to allow them to use more food. That arguement I think really doesn't need me to take the time to point out the obvious flaws in it. Taking a death to allow for the ability to take more food/drink negates the entire point of using food/drink to begin with, which is to allow you toincrease your ability to avoid cloning in the first place!!! (ok, I rebutted just once there ) I do not propose reducing it if you get rezzed, that would lead to possible exploits to avoid filling. I mean hitting the cloning center. Why is this a point that really requires arguement? you fufill the"penalty" no differently then you did if you lost your entertainer buff's or doctor's buff's. YOU DIED!!! I fail to see how this is an issue that requires debate, and this has nothing to do with the 45/30 emptying issue. The point of receiving any type of enhancement is to avoid death.

I believe that in PVE this would have little effect on game play, almost all talk of this has come down to PVP fighting.I can see a Dueler needing to clear his stomach putting his armor in a droid and letting a friend/enemy kill him to clear it out. This would be exploited in PVP and would have a very damaging effect on many people’s game play experience, but it seems that many people only care if it affects them. Why would he put his armor in a droid, when there is no pvp decay? If you feel people would take deaths, then have to rebuff in other areas to avoid filling, all I can say to rebutt that without making a personal attack is, WOW!

I just can't imagine any gamer telling his hunting partner, "Hey, I have to die, clone, get rebuffed, and come back out here, I cant take another ahirsa". When you die via any other enhancement, your penalty is not getting the full duration of the enhancement you paid for thru you own punishment. Rememberthe bug that if you died while under the effect of a doctor's buff, you couldn't get rebuffed until the duration of the one you lost via death had ran out? That neat little bug was from back about a year ago, it was called a bug, and fixed. I remember being frustrated that coming out of the cloning center, and traveling out to my hunting party, the doc getting the message, "your target already has an enhancement to that attribute". Keeping filling after cloning is essentially giving the same penalty.

Again not even in the same ball park. Doctor/Entertainer buffs are so different from Chef buffs I don’t see why they are always compared. Because they do the same thing, they enhance your ability to avoid having to clone. How many people would purchase doctor's buffs if they made it easier for you to die? Same for entertainers. The entire point of an "enhancement" is to make you better. So you are telling me that while out on a base raid, you would turn and tell your buddy that he needed to kill you so you could take another ahirsa. Now you would be cloning away from the group, you would have to travel back out to your group, get rebuffed by a doc, possibly even rebuffed by an entertainer, wasting up to 15-20 minutes of your time. If I go under sciguy's assumption that they will fix stomachs so they empty in 30 minutes, you would loose almost as much filling in not dying and just hiding somewhere instead of going thru the time to re-prepare for pvp with other types of enhancements and re-joining your group.

It should be considered a bug, not a part of the game. You dont need skill points to buy doctor's buff, or entertainer buff's.

No you need to meet up with another character on possibly another planet and hope they are willing to help you for a high price and wait in line 10+ minutes, this would be the down side to doctor buffs. Since we are dealing now in "what-if's" I could take doctors as a profession and not have any hassle in rebuffing myself. Now where is the down-side? Let's try not to deal with "what-if's"..

Your arguementseems to come down to that you think we should be punished for selling our goods off a vendor, instead of going to a starport or cantina and selling single charges hand-crafted on the spot. ( I am not making a personal attack, just illustrate why I would need my high quality droid out! *wink*)

That’s not what I’m saying at all, I was pointing out howmany people aretrying to compare apples to oranges, and howinsane it sounds. My point in the above paragraph was directed at our coorespondent, not you. Comparing 2 fruits is insane? What would comparing steak and plastic be then?So you feel this change would be fair if we sat in starports or cantina then selling our goods?

{sense of humor}The only possible ways I can see to really exploit filling emptying upon death would be acrafter using pyro cake/bespin port, crafting in a cloning center, and having someone duel/db them when full. or a doc buffing outside the cloning center, and doing the duel/db/clone to empty his stomach. {end sense of humor}

So even knowing this fix would be exploited you would support it? Sense of humor obviously bypassed you here. People currently go ld while overt to avoid dying when outnumbered because that way they get the 1 minute grace period where you cannot attack them, this gives them time to get backup. you cannot make game designs that cover every possible way some bed-wetter will find to exploit the system. Even so, you would just make sure clothing takes decay during even pvp deaths even while in a storage droid, then what crafter will chance loosing condition on their crafting clothes to take another bespin port? Not this one.

We have had to master an elite profession, stockpile large sums of resources like a doctor, andmake sure people knowwe are selling our product, like an entertaineror doctor registering on the planetary map. For a chef to register on the planetary map, we have to pick up another profession entirely! (merchant advertising for our vendor)This is something that hurts our profession, and needs to be repaired. Isn't death the ultimate penalty? Why keep something in that hurts the players who use our wares uneedingly?

Message Edited by Morganite on 10-04-2004 09:50 PM

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Crazyana

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Minotauro wrote:

Im not sure if the majority of you know what i mean by "zerging".

As pvp is now, in the GCW in player cities there will be a base(s). Like 50m away, the defending city will place there cloner. This allows people to die, and run instantly back out of the cloner back into action. Also, when you clone where your data is stored, you dont get big BF, wounds, and when you die in pvp you dont decay. So for example...

Base is being raided....

defenders are there, and cloned. Attackers have control of the base. Defending CM, continues to die, fully rebuff, eat there stuff again, and run out and disease/poison. He dies, he does it all over again 15 seconds later. This is a huge problem as is without letting people eat all there food again. If you dont have filling, you wont even need a doctor to be running out of the cloner with 3k hams...you can do it on food alone. Not just CM's would benifit from this either, that was just my example.

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Your point is a poor example. If you form a base raiding team and do not have a doctor with area cures, do you really think you have a chance going up against a combat medic anyway whether his stomach is full or empty? Yes, people would benifit from filling reducing, but for that to happen, they still have to die and clone. Isnt that enough of a penalty?

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kardia wrote:

It does not hur anyone for the filling to be gone it really just causes people to stop playing a game inwhich they are paying the money and time to play.

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I think that is hitting the nail on the head with the "Keep filling upon death because it leads to PvP expliots" crowd. If the food filling remained upon death, you end that gamers night. Sort of the old just incap them all day type of griefing. That was removed a long time ago and made so that you die after 3 incaps, but the metality is still there.

The stomach being empty upon death doesn't hurt anyone or anything. Well it does, it hurts the "I ownz you" crowd that likes to put an end to someones gaming experience for the evening by killing them. This sort of griefing is covered in the ToS and should be enforced.

Full death stomach needs to go if you clone. Also, I feel 45m is the right stomach timer given the current timing of our foods. If it goes down to 30m, then brandy and ahrisa need to be adjusted to reflex this.

How about if we please everybody and reduce filling to half when cloned? If you had a full stomach you could at least drink Brandy once, probably Vercupti or whatever you can fit, go out, do some damage (instead of sitting for 40mins) or retreat and regroup.

- Zerging: I don't think someone with only 1 vercupti and 1 brandy would be able to hold very long (taking into account that everybody migrates all the stats to mind, even pistoleer would do dmg )... If it's a CM, well, all groups have docs (or you could put a rifleman to pick him up at range), or else I don't think they would reach the Zerg phase.

- Crafters: well, for the sake of incresing pvp action I think this wouldn't be a so high price to pay. Besides, they would have to be DBed very often with half fill. Even if it could be called an exploit, I think a CSR would be able to catch someone getting DBed again and again by the same guy in a short ammount of time.