Chef Archive
Thread: Request when discussing pricing...
Killtacular
Wed Mar 24, 2004 8:19 pm
#27
Saitek wrote:
Sorry!! I will add your copyright in !
Cyene wrote:
"So here are some facts:
Fact #1) People can price anything anyway they want
Fact #2) Noone can do anything about it"
Copyright 2004 Cyene Smack Talk Industries
Hey, that MY line!
Cyene
Omglol!
Cyene
MissileToad
Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:28 pm
#28
Hello, I am Octavius! Some of you may know me as Saitek's Personal Baz Nitch.
Perhaps it would help you to know how our guild RAID works. We're a close knit guild of large size, and we have an economy that is mostly self-sufficient. Hunters hunt, harvesters harvest, then thesupplies end up in the hands of crafters who in turn make them into products that we give ourselves for free or little cost in return. That, combined with money meaning so little in this game after a few million (which is not hard to get), leads to products for sale for low prices. We don't need the money, and we make a lot as it is, so why raise prices?
Saitek buys crates of additives from me for 5k or lower. I only charge a bit for the meat I use... flora just costs me a bit of radioactive power to get. If the meat is solely from guild hunting, I make the additives for free. In return, myself and the entire guild are supplied with large amounts free food. Similarly we treat ourselves to free BE enhanced clothing, weapons, structures, etc etc.
Trading goods and time for goods and time... older than money! Should we price high just so other merchants don't feel inadequate? Sounds like price fixing there, and that's an ugly thing. People price (well, gouging aside) to make a profit minus what they spend in time and money to make their goods - for us it just happens to be a cheaper cost to manufacture.
apulieus
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:22 am
#29
Saitek you and Iplyvi should just put disclaimers on your price responses. We have sweetheart BE's that supply schematics for 50k.
Though i think you'd be flamed off the BE boards if you went there and suggested that BE's should do the same for all chefs.
Iplvi you said in another thread you pay 100cr per trim, which is low consider it takes 25 resources to make. Instead of taking advantage of them why don't you pay them what they're worth, you should really pay them 200cr minimun.
Similarly for you BE's so your food costs a little more, give them a fair value.
Saitek
Thu Mar 25, 2004 1:35 am
#30
apulieus wrote:
Saitek you and Iplyvi should just put disclaimers on your price responses. We have sweetheart BE's that supply schematics for 50k.
Though i think you'd be flamed off the BE boards if you went there and suggested that BE's should do the same for all chefs.
Iplvi you said in another thread you pay 100cr per trim, which is low consider it takes 25 resources to make. Instead of taking advantage of them why don't you pay them what they're worth, you should really pay them 200cr minimun.
Similarly for you BE's so your food costs a little more, give them a fair value.
I never said all BE's should do that for all chefs. Find a post where I said that. I help out my BE's and my Tailor as much as possible, including supplying 100's of thousands worth of resources, and giving them my personal collection of meat over 60k by now and free food.
To me it sounds like jealousy on your part. Instead of responding with "how did you manage that" in order to try and reduce your costs, which I am more than happy to helpyou with, you would rather make negative and unconstructive comments. That's jealousy if I ever saw it, very childish.
dadedi
Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:09 am
#31
Its a design problem.
For professions like Architects/Tailors (andto some pointChef), you have:
- Standardized products
- Mass Production
- Free market
This lead inevitably to 10-12 people dominating the market. Other people will leave the profession, find a small niche or continue to play just for fun without trying to really enter the market.
On the other side, you have professions like BE where you cant mass product (Im talking about the pet production) and where each product can be very different depending on the crafter. IMO, this profession is the best designed even if it have other problems.
If the game designers, after designing, developing and maintaining a full profession are happy that this profession is only really played by 10-12 people...
Dadedi
apulieus
Thu Mar 25, 2004 10:15 am
#32
Hello, I am Octavius! Some of you may know me as Saitek's Personal Baz Nitch."
Lol,
Obviously, I don't know the ends and outs of your guild collabration,but you describe it as a pretty much a group effort.
The only thing it seems to me is that you get very little out of the arrangement compared to your chef. But who knows maybe he kicks back his cash into supporting the town and the guild.
I do think when someone asks what your charging for brandy and Saike hops in thread and says i charge 90k a crate and forgets to mention that he's gets practically free schematics he's stirring the pot so to speak.
Also when he says" To me it sounds like jealousy on your part. Instead of responding with "how did you manage that" in order to try and reduce your costs, which I am more than happy to helpyou with"
His innovation in price control is to find a BE to supply scematics for 50k. I'm not interested in underpaying a BE for schematics.
But ultimately he may be right and the future of chef will lie in PA controled markets.
Saitek
Thu Mar 25, 2004 12:28 pm
#33
As far as underpaying the BE, or them getting the short end of the stick, I was not the one who made the circumstances of the arrangement. I basically said to the BE's on TS (TeamSpeak), hey can you guys make me some BE additives? And they said yes, and that they would charge me X amount for them (this was pre-patch btw, I've been using additives for a while). And I said "cool".
Pricing of my crates was also discussed with them, and everything was and is cool. Nothing formal, I was just like "I'm gonna charge X amount, because of X", and they were like "cool".
As far as what I do for the guild: I for the most part was on my own until about 3 or 4 months ago, then I joined this particular guild (many of the members were regular customers of mine & I knew they didn't have a chef). After about 1 month I was promoted to Senior Staff (Leadership Position). I also dropped all my combat and part of my merchent to take on Master Politician because the previous Mayor had to leave (We all miss him), and I was one of the few people who had the points and the ambition for it (there were a couple others). So as of now, I do these roles:
Senior Staff - guild decisions, recruiting
Human (Alien) Resources - People in the guild are to direct any kind of conflict to me, and I will take care of it. Even if they just need to talk.
I give away lots and lots and lots of food. I even do home delivery for city members.
I run S-Mart with help from my good friend Master Chef Caius.(Currently 4 locations, and tons of private orders)
I give away resources and credits in guild to those who want it. You need 500k? 1 mill? just ask, I like helping people
I run the city museum with help from my friend Niczo, and my loot hunting friend Ebo
I decorate and re-decorate the cantina and city hall (so interior design on those structures are my deal)
I maintain buildings. I run around all important structures and make sure maintence is paid, admin list is updated, yadda yadda yadda
I'm the mayor and do all the political stuff (Metropolis)
Regularly participate in guild activities & encourage others to do so (believe me, thats alot of work)
Help others grind holos, even sitting in one spot hand clicking the yes button for 2+ hours if need be.
Guild/ TS Jester and source of amusement.
Whatever people need I try and help. I DO NOT just log on, fill the factories with schematics and resources, then put my feet up collecting cash. I'm always doing something, it's alot of work, but I really like it. Never a boring moment, always something to get accomplished.
As far as the market lying in PA controlled markets, I really have no idea. Maybe it does, maybe it doesnt, but I dont think anyone has a true grasp on the entire market. I will say that doing this as a group, with teamwork, is a much more pleasent, and fun process then going alone. I have done both.
When I was alone, I made good money, I made friends, but I was bored. I logged on filled the factories, made money, and logged off. Now in a PA, I always find stuff that needs to be done, and there are always people to interact with, whether you are hunting, shopping, or even just talking.
Also it's a "she", not a "he"
Pricing of my crates was also discussed with them, and everything was and is cool. Nothing formal, I was just like "I'm gonna charge X amount, because of X", and they were like "cool".
As far as what I do for the guild: I for the most part was on my own until about 3 or 4 months ago, then I joined this particular guild (many of the members were regular customers of mine & I knew they didn't have a chef). After about 1 month I was promoted to Senior Staff (Leadership Position). I also dropped all my combat and part of my merchent to take on Master Politician because the previous Mayor had to leave (We all miss him), and I was one of the few people who had the points and the ambition for it (there were a couple others). So as of now, I do these roles:
Senior Staff - guild decisions, recruiting
Human (Alien) Resources - People in the guild are to direct any kind of conflict to me, and I will take care of it. Even if they just need to talk.
I give away lots and lots and lots of food. I even do home delivery for city members.
I run S-Mart with help from my good friend Master Chef Caius.(Currently 4 locations, and tons of private orders)
I give away resources and credits in guild to those who want it. You need 500k? 1 mill? just ask, I like helping people
I run the city museum with help from my friend Niczo, and my loot hunting friend Ebo
I decorate and re-decorate the cantina and city hall (so interior design on those structures are my deal)
I maintain buildings. I run around all important structures and make sure maintence is paid, admin list is updated, yadda yadda yadda
I'm the mayor and do all the political stuff (Metropolis)
Regularly participate in guild activities & encourage others to do so (believe me, thats alot of work)
Help others grind holos, even sitting in one spot hand clicking the yes button for 2+ hours if need be.
Guild/ TS Jester and source of amusement.
Whatever people need I try and help. I DO NOT just log on, fill the factories with schematics and resources, then put my feet up collecting cash. I'm always doing something, it's alot of work, but I really like it. Never a boring moment, always something to get accomplished.
As far as the market lying in PA controlled markets, I really have no idea. Maybe it does, maybe it doesnt, but I dont think anyone has a true grasp on the entire market. I will say that doing this as a group, with teamwork, is a much more pleasent, and fun process then going alone. I have done both.
When I was alone, I made good money, I made friends, but I was bored. I logged on filled the factories, made money, and logged off. Now in a PA, I always find stuff that needs to be done, and there are always people to interact with, whether you are hunting, shopping, or even just talking.
Also it's a "she", not a "he"
Dsabre
Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:15 pm
#34
Saitek wrote:
Dsabre wrote:
Saitek, If I were you, I'd take a moment to take some of your own advise, and carefully read what people are posting instead of just rattling off a response.
when you say things like all chefs should seek to reduce their costs as much as possible...the first and foremost cost is/was/will be (unless things change) the BE additives. you get your additives for dirt cheap, try suggesting a price less than 40k a crate for tissues on the BE boards...you'll get flamed off in short order.Thats false, there are BE's on my server who sell crates for 20k a crate.
gee and if I don't use facts...I guess the resource costs are just my opinion that a small glass made with 2cpu gemstone would cost 20 credits...so it must just be my opinion that a small glass takes 10 gemstone to make. and its also just my opinion that tailors, and architects got into undercutting wars which has caused a sharp decline in their population. it must also be my opinion that enraged rancor missions can be obtained on dathomir and that those rancors can be harvested for meat....and lots of it. oh and it must also be my opinion that a small glass drink shouldn't be priced the same as a drink in a cask, strictly based off of resource costs...because hey its my opinion that a small glass takes less resources than a cask.These facts were only based on what it cost you, not me. For me trim is free, gemstone is occasionally free though last time i payed 2:1. BE additives are 5k a crate, flora resources are approx .2, and milk, meat and hide are free. You can calculate my profits off that. I dont beleive that because I CAN charge someone a certain price that I ethically should.
I'll take some thoughts that were floating around during the BE debate over chef tissue pricing...and I was involved in that too to a large extent...ask ArthurDentOnBria...I think I got the caps right...I think. a BE selling tissues at 40k a crate can make enough profit to cover costs at 5 cpu for flora, and 25 cpu for meat. giving a BE access to 60k meat, and hundreds of K of flora pales in comparison to what other chefs are giving their BE's by paying them more than 5k a crate.
tailors are a different story...100 cr a trim is more than a fair price...especially since quality of materials is irrelovent.
giving a BE free food is a fairly common practice, theres a lot of chefs that give food away to friends and PA mates as well (theres nothing wrong with helping out a friend).
jealousy isn't childishYes it is, it's also a sin called ENVY
...refusing to admit when you're wrong or when others are right...or accusing people of doing the same thing you're doing. nearly every other poster in this thread leaves open the possibility that they don't know everything, or that they could be wrong...all but 1.
I never said I know everything, quote the post where I said "I know everything"
and if you read apulieus' post...he's not jealous of you...far from it...he's most likely annoyed that you value your BE/tailor partners so lowly. he wants you to pay your BE's/tailors more...what they're worth...how is that jealous? pity for others is not jealousy.OH SORRY, I forgot that you play with me in game ALL the time, and can actually truely account for how much I value my tailor and my BE. Making a statement like that is saying that I dont beleive you value or love your mother. I have no exposure to you to even remotely make a statement like that, nor do you or Apulieus have the experience with me to know that. Also, if you base how much you value someone on any kind of monetary value thats really sad. Money is not the end all of the game.
Message Edited by Saitek on 03-24-2004 09:17 PM
Saitek...how do you keep coming up with these interpretations????
I say post on the BE boards...you reply with "BE's on my server charge 20k a crate"...sort of relevent...but how did you get "all BE's charge 40k a crate" out of that??? BE's have flamed other BE's for pricing under 40k...maybe its changed a bit since I get into a debate with ArthurDentOnBria...and several other BE's on their board...but 40k a crate seemed to be the lowest price before the flames would start.
then theres your 2nd reply...if 2 cpu is my price, and not yours...then why do you later add that you sometimes pay 2:1 for gemstone (I'm guessing you must have meant 2 gemstone per credit....because if you didn't...you saying 2 cpu both is and isn't a price you pay...very confusing).
regarding that same reply...how did you get "price higher" out of a bunch of comments regarding resource costs? casks take more resources than small glasses, I believe thats all that segment of my post is saying...nothing to do with profits or anything else...just restating (with a lot of sarcasm) that comparing a small glass drink to a cask drink isn't fair based purely off of resource costs (casks need 20x more resources than a small glass, factory runs, and other professions aside) unless this is just me, and everyone else can make a cask with 10 gemstone?
if jealousy is a Sin and childish...then are children by default all sinners because they are childish? I'm not gonna go into any kind of religious thing...but I thought children weren't sinners by default? (not sure on this one...but I thought they weren't)
I never said you said you know everything...just that you won't leave the door open by adding in things like "maybe I'm wrong" etc...someone doesn't have to say "I know everything" to give that impression...never admitting you could be wrong, or stating opinions as facts are good ways to give others that impression.
as for the last bit of your post...ummm how did you get "he and I" out of he??? really...this is probably the most confusing interpretation anyone has made out of one of my posts. I was just trying to restate what I felt was a more reasonable interpretation of apulieus' post...that he (note this is not my opinion) thought that you should pay your BE's/tailors more...and thats it...no wait there was the added on question of if you thought pity was the same as jealousy. to be jealous of someone you have to want to be like that person, from what I can tell apulieus doesn't want to be like you...at least not from what that 1 post said, his second post leaves that possibility open tho. I don't think he says you don't value your BE's/tailors...just that you should value them more (I personally don't really see the harm in saying that you should...not must...value someone more).
money (credits...just to make sure no one confuses this with actually paying someone with money irl) is the easiest way to gage value (yeah there are other ways...but it requires more details to be given, and a lot of other things. it also takes a lot more time to understand). Saitek, if all apulieus saw of your posts was how much you pay for BE additives, and trim, without seeing the one you made about the other things you do...its very easy to see how he would come to that conclusion just based on credits.
there are plenty of things to do that require more than a few million credits. being an active participant in the GCW is extremely expensive...armor/weapons/attachments...each of those can easily run into the millions of credits each. then theres the bases, and turrets. grinding the faction missions takes a very long time...so most people will buy FP from a smuggler...I think smuggler's buy it at 100 credits a fp...with aliens having to pay more for imp faction, etc. faction bases cost upwards of 10k...turrets run about 10k...thats 1 mil per turret, 1 mil+ per base...bases can take 4 turrets (the big ones)...so maybe 6 million for a fully set up base. theres a lot of groups/PA's that can take out a base in a single night...so 6 million for 1 night's combat...very expensive...but fun.
one last final though...price fixing high...price fixing low...is there a difference? how can one suggest that everyone find ways to drop their prices, and yet object to others suggesting that they raise prices to a certain range (I never suggested a specific price...merely that prices be relatively close...maybe +/- 50k from a particular point...just for arguments sake...I'll throw out 150k as that number) because its price fixing? I never have or ever will demand that people raise their prices...as was specifically stated in my first post undercutting is fine...just think about what effect your actions will have on others.
Saitek
Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:55 pm
#35
"I say post on the BE boards...you reply with "BE's on my server charge 20k a crate"...sort of relevent...but how did you get "all BE's charge 40k a crate" out of that??? BE's have flamed other BE's for pricing under 40k...maybe its changed a bit since I get into a debate with ArthurDentOnBria...and several other BE's on their board...but 40k a crate seemed to be the lowest price before the flames would start."
By stating this you are suggesting that no BE would sell for under 40k. You are stating, that should I suggest they sell under 40k, that all would respond with flames, which shows their unwillingness to price lower. So stating that in fact BE's do price lower, is relevant.
"then theres your 2nd reply...if 2 cpu is my price, and not yours...then why do you later add that you sometimes pay 2:1 for gemstone (I'm guessing you must have meant 2 gemstone per credit....because if you didn't...you saying 2 cpu both is and isn't a price you pay...very confusing)."
2:1 is what I pay for gemstone currently. .2 is what I get resources for.
"regarding that same reply...how did you get "price higher" out of a bunch of comments regarding resource costs? casks take more resources than small glasses, I believe thats all that segment of my post is saying...nothing to do with profits or anything else...just restating (with a lot of sarcasm) that comparing a small glass drink to a cask drink isn't fair based purely off of resource costs (casks need 20x more resources than a small glass, factory runs, and other professions aside) unless this is just me, and everyone else can make a cask with 10 gemstone?"
I never said comparing a cask to a small glass is fair. Poeple should list the container size when discussing pricing, it's a relevant expenditure.
"if jealousy is a Sin and childish...then are children by default all sinners because they are childish? I'm not gonna go into any kind of religious thing...but I thought children weren't sinners by default? (not sure on this one...but I thought they weren't)"
I'm not religious, merely siting the fact that jealousy is not a virtue. I don't want to get into talking about children, I generally don't like them to make an unbiased comment.
"I never said you said you know everything...just that you won't leave the door open by adding in things like "maybe I'm wrong" etc...someone doesn't have to say "I know everything" to give that impression...never admitting you could be wrong, or stating opinions as facts are good ways to give others that impression."
You heavily implied it. And overall I don't think I'm wrong, this is not a black and white science so I don't think their is a right answer, but I dont think there is a wrong answer either.
"as for the last bit of your post...ummm how did you get "he and I" out of he??? really...this is probably the most confusing interpretation anyone has made out of one of my posts. I was just trying to restate what I felt was a more reasonable interpretation of apulieus' post...that he (note this is not my opinion) thought that you should pay your BE's/tailors more...and thats it...no wait there was the added on question of if you thought pity was the same as jealousy. to be jealous of someone you have to want to be like that person, from what I can tell apulieus doesn't want to be like you...at least not from what that 1 post said, his second post leaves that possibility open tho. I don't think he says you don't value your BE's/tailors...just that you should value them more (I personally don't really see the harm in saying that you should...not must...value someone more)."
The way in which you decided to restate his thoughts was written in a manner which implied your alignment with his ideals, hence my response.
I don't think you can successfully determine how much I value people in game without playing with me. Saying that I don't value them is a border line slanderous. Pity is not the same as jealousy, typically you don't assualt people you pity, also pity does not involve anger and negativity as were indicitive of his posts.
"money (credits...just to make sure no one confuses this with actually paying someone with money irl) is the easiest way to gage value (yeah there are other ways...but it requires more details to be given, and a lot of other things. it also takes a lot more time to understand). Saitek, if all apulieus saw of your posts was how much you pay for BE additives, and trim, without seeing the one you made about the other things you do...its very easy to see how he would come to that conclusion just based on credits."
Those specific posts are very un-educated. It's irresponsible to make assumptions based on a very small portion of information. I know that when I read a book I do not determine how much I liked the book based on the first sentance, I continue to read, until something like that is determined. Same in this case. If you wanted for information, all you have to do is ask.
"there are plenty of things to do that require more than a few million credits. being an active participant in the GCW is extremely expensive...armor/weapons/attachments...each of those can easily run into the millions of credits each. then theres the bases, and turrets. grinding the faction missions takes a very long time...so most people will buy FP from a smuggler...I think smuggler's buy it at 100 credits a fp...with aliens having to pay more for imp faction, etc. faction bases cost upwards of 10k...turrets run about 10k...thats 1 mil per turret, 1 mil+ per base...bases can take 4 turrets (the big ones)...so maybe 6 million for a fully set up base. theres a lot of groups/PA's that can take out a base in a single night...so 6 million for 1 night's combat...very expensive...but fun."
The guild works together on all of this, I'm the mayor and in my office I've got all kinds of GCW related items. Even skill attachements are shared in guild, anything you can think of, we work on together. We went krayt hunting 4 days ago and retrieved 2 pearls, 1 of the members GAVE the pearl away to another member, because he was running low on credits, and this was a good opportunity for him to make money. The pearl was then sold to someone in the guild for a cheaper but reasonable price. Little arrangements like this help the group as a whole. And yes the GCW is fun when I get a chance to participate, though my combat character is a sad state of affairs.
"one last final though...price fixing high...price fixing low...is there a difference? how can one suggest that everyone find ways to drop their prices, and yet object to others suggesting that they raise prices to a certain range (I never suggested a specific price...merely that prices be relatively close...maybe +/- 50k from a particular point...just for arguments sake...I'll throw out 150k as that number) because its price fixing? I never have or ever will demand that people raise their prices...as was specifically stated in my first post undercutting is fine...just think about what effect your actions will have on others."
I never said you HAD to drop your prices, I'm saying, that your reaction to my price, is telling me (in lamens terms), "I'm pissed because you are selling alot lower than I can". So I am merely suggesting opportunities to reduce costs, which are avialable, that people don't know about.
Also let me quickly define price fixing, for clarification (compliments of dictionary.com): The result of an unlawful agreement between manufacturers or dealers to set and maintain specified prices on typically competing products.
What you are suggesting is basically that. You suggest people not lower their prices within a certain percentage of the competitve market on their server. That is price fixing. It creates a floor and a ceiling for prices.
Also you really didn't say undercutting was fine. Saying something is fine, is saying that you are satisfied and the behavior is acceptable. But clearly from your stance you are really not satisfied or find it acceptable. Your stance is more that, undercutting is objectionable.
As far as the affect on others, I did think about it. And noone has gone out of business because of any of my pricing. And honestly I really don't care if they do or don't. If they do, well that sucks, if they don't then congradulations. Either way I am relatively indifferent. I truely believe, that if you go out of business in this game, you yourself is partly to blame. I know that noone can put me out of business, regardless of their pricing in relation to mine, I can guarentee you that.
By stating this you are suggesting that no BE would sell for under 40k. You are stating, that should I suggest they sell under 40k, that all would respond with flames, which shows their unwillingness to price lower. So stating that in fact BE's do price lower, is relevant.
"then theres your 2nd reply...if 2 cpu is my price, and not yours...then why do you later add that you sometimes pay 2:1 for gemstone (I'm guessing you must have meant 2 gemstone per credit....because if you didn't...you saying 2 cpu both is and isn't a price you pay...very confusing)."
2:1 is what I pay for gemstone currently. .2 is what I get resources for.
"regarding that same reply...how did you get "price higher" out of a bunch of comments regarding resource costs? casks take more resources than small glasses, I believe thats all that segment of my post is saying...nothing to do with profits or anything else...just restating (with a lot of sarcasm) that comparing a small glass drink to a cask drink isn't fair based purely off of resource costs (casks need 20x more resources than a small glass, factory runs, and other professions aside) unless this is just me, and everyone else can make a cask with 10 gemstone?"
I never said comparing a cask to a small glass is fair. Poeple should list the container size when discussing pricing, it's a relevant expenditure.
"if jealousy is a Sin and childish...then are children by default all sinners because they are childish? I'm not gonna go into any kind of religious thing...but I thought children weren't sinners by default? (not sure on this one...but I thought they weren't)"
I'm not religious, merely siting the fact that jealousy is not a virtue. I don't want to get into talking about children, I generally don't like them to make an unbiased comment.
"I never said you said you know everything...just that you won't leave the door open by adding in things like "maybe I'm wrong" etc...someone doesn't have to say "I know everything" to give that impression...never admitting you could be wrong, or stating opinions as facts are good ways to give others that impression."
You heavily implied it. And overall I don't think I'm wrong, this is not a black and white science so I don't think their is a right answer, but I dont think there is a wrong answer either.
"as for the last bit of your post...ummm how did you get "he and I" out of he??? really...this is probably the most confusing interpretation anyone has made out of one of my posts. I was just trying to restate what I felt was a more reasonable interpretation of apulieus' post...that he (note this is not my opinion) thought that you should pay your BE's/tailors more...and thats it...no wait there was the added on question of if you thought pity was the same as jealousy. to be jealous of someone you have to want to be like that person, from what I can tell apulieus doesn't want to be like you...at least not from what that 1 post said, his second post leaves that possibility open tho. I don't think he says you don't value your BE's/tailors...just that you should value them more (I personally don't really see the harm in saying that you should...not must...value someone more)."
The way in which you decided to restate his thoughts was written in a manner which implied your alignment with his ideals, hence my response.
I don't think you can successfully determine how much I value people in game without playing with me. Saying that I don't value them is a border line slanderous. Pity is not the same as jealousy, typically you don't assualt people you pity, also pity does not involve anger and negativity as were indicitive of his posts.
"money (credits...just to make sure no one confuses this with actually paying someone with money irl) is the easiest way to gage value (yeah there are other ways...but it requires more details to be given, and a lot of other things. it also takes a lot more time to understand). Saitek, if all apulieus saw of your posts was how much you pay for BE additives, and trim, without seeing the one you made about the other things you do...its very easy to see how he would come to that conclusion just based on credits."
Those specific posts are very un-educated. It's irresponsible to make assumptions based on a very small portion of information. I know that when I read a book I do not determine how much I liked the book based on the first sentance, I continue to read, until something like that is determined. Same in this case. If you wanted for information, all you have to do is ask.
"there are plenty of things to do that require more than a few million credits. being an active participant in the GCW is extremely expensive...armor/weapons/attachments...each of those can easily run into the millions of credits each. then theres the bases, and turrets. grinding the faction missions takes a very long time...so most people will buy FP from a smuggler...I think smuggler's buy it at 100 credits a fp...with aliens having to pay more for imp faction, etc. faction bases cost upwards of 10k...turrets run about 10k...thats 1 mil per turret, 1 mil+ per base...bases can take 4 turrets (the big ones)...so maybe 6 million for a fully set up base. theres a lot of groups/PA's that can take out a base in a single night...so 6 million for 1 night's combat...very expensive...but fun."
The guild works together on all of this, I'm the mayor and in my office I've got all kinds of GCW related items. Even skill attachements are shared in guild, anything you can think of, we work on together. We went krayt hunting 4 days ago and retrieved 2 pearls, 1 of the members GAVE the pearl away to another member, because he was running low on credits, and this was a good opportunity for him to make money. The pearl was then sold to someone in the guild for a cheaper but reasonable price. Little arrangements like this help the group as a whole. And yes the GCW is fun when I get a chance to participate, though my combat character is a sad state of affairs.
"one last final though...price fixing high...price fixing low...is there a difference? how can one suggest that everyone find ways to drop their prices, and yet object to others suggesting that they raise prices to a certain range (I never suggested a specific price...merely that prices be relatively close...maybe +/- 50k from a particular point...just for arguments sake...I'll throw out 150k as that number) because its price fixing? I never have or ever will demand that people raise their prices...as was specifically stated in my first post undercutting is fine...just think about what effect your actions will have on others."
I never said you HAD to drop your prices, I'm saying, that your reaction to my price, is telling me (in lamens terms), "I'm pissed because you are selling alot lower than I can". So I am merely suggesting opportunities to reduce costs, which are avialable, that people don't know about.
Also let me quickly define price fixing, for clarification (compliments of dictionary.com): The result of an unlawful agreement between manufacturers or dealers to set and maintain specified prices on typically competing products.
What you are suggesting is basically that. You suggest people not lower their prices within a certain percentage of the competitve market on their server. That is price fixing. It creates a floor and a ceiling for prices.
Also you really didn't say undercutting was fine. Saying something is fine, is saying that you are satisfied and the behavior is acceptable. But clearly from your stance you are really not satisfied or find it acceptable. Your stance is more that, undercutting is objectionable.
As far as the affect on others, I did think about it. And noone has gone out of business because of any of my pricing. And honestly I really don't care if they do or don't. If they do, well that sucks, if they don't then congradulations. Either way I am relatively indifferent. I truely believe, that if you go out of business in this game, you yourself is partly to blame. I know that noone can put me out of business, regardless of their pricing in relation to mine, I can guarentee you that.
Dsabre
Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:06 am
#36
well Saitek...a few comments/questions...
for the first response...saying you'll get flamed off the BE boards for posting a price under 40k is far from saying all BE's price 40k+...not all BE's...or players for that matter post on the boards. and of the ones that do...not all post the prices they sell things for, I even stated that things may have changed since last I checked, so theres no garauntee that the flames will happen...and certainly not from everyone. getting flamed off doesn't necesarily mean everyone will flame you...just the majority (maybe 70% just to throw a number out), but again...the pricing debates may have died down to the point where you wouldn't get flamed off.
2:1 is that 2 gemstone per credit or 2 credits per gemstone...still not sure which one you mean...it could be either one. and once again...not sure where that second reply came from...but how did you get my suggesting that you think comparing small glass to cask is fair...out of my question about where your previous reply was coming from...the one where you went off on a rant about how I'm telling you to price higher and such???
on that last part...I used the word "suggest" to say that you didn't say everyone has to drop prices...but suggested that everyone should...not must...should. I don't even know what your price is...I really don't recall reading it...probably did...but can't remember at any rate. using the dictionary definition for price fixing doesn't really apply...it states that it has to be an unlawful agreement...as there are no laws on pricing in SWG...there can be no price fixing...at least not how the dictionary would define it...unless they have one for virtual game economies with no laws?
I will say this again, as I have many times Saitek...try asking some of the architects what arguments, attitudes, and opinions that were used by many architects during their undercutting wars...or even some of the docs/medics about stim b's. if there are any that still remember (or want to remember) you may hear some surprisingly familiar arguments....and some of the really nasty things some of them did to help drive other members out of buisiness...not griefing...but nasty nonetheless.
Being concerned for what happens to the other chefs on a server is one of the things I've felt has always seperated chefs from other crafting professions...ws's are the only other profession I know of that do the same maybe the armorsmiths...but I'm not quite as sure on that one. sure its partly one's own fault for going out of buisiness...but thats just it...its only part of the reason...not the only reason. other parts can include but are not limited to: customer's attitudes, other crafters, suppliers, lack of desire to continue (normally as a result from one of the previous 3 reasons).
oh and just as an FYI...I can price well below 50k if I really really wanted to, but I won't...not unless most of the other chefs are willing to do the same. some of the other posters have worked out some calculations showing it can be done for under 40k...I'd agree with that...it can be done...doesn't mean it should be done, but it can.
one last final request Saitek...I noticed one of your other PA mates has responded in this thread, perhaps you could ask a few more to read it...or just that one poster, and see if they get the same impression from my posts...and your subsequent responses...I'm still confused about where some of those responses are coming from...and would be interested to see how many (if any at all) understand some of your responses, I can't but maybe others can...
for the first response...saying you'll get flamed off the BE boards for posting a price under 40k is far from saying all BE's price 40k+...not all BE's...or players for that matter post on the boards. and of the ones that do...not all post the prices they sell things for, I even stated that things may have changed since last I checked, so theres no garauntee that the flames will happen...and certainly not from everyone. getting flamed off doesn't necesarily mean everyone will flame you...just the majority (maybe 70% just to throw a number out), but again...the pricing debates may have died down to the point where you wouldn't get flamed off.
2:1 is that 2 gemstone per credit or 2 credits per gemstone...still not sure which one you mean...it could be either one. and once again...not sure where that second reply came from...but how did you get my suggesting that you think comparing small glass to cask is fair...out of my question about where your previous reply was coming from...the one where you went off on a rant about how I'm telling you to price higher and such???
on that last part...I used the word "suggest" to say that you didn't say everyone has to drop prices...but suggested that everyone should...not must...should. I don't even know what your price is...I really don't recall reading it...probably did...but can't remember at any rate. using the dictionary definition for price fixing doesn't really apply...it states that it has to be an unlawful agreement...as there are no laws on pricing in SWG...there can be no price fixing...at least not how the dictionary would define it...unless they have one for virtual game economies with no laws?
I will say this again, as I have many times Saitek...try asking some of the architects what arguments, attitudes, and opinions that were used by many architects during their undercutting wars...or even some of the docs/medics about stim b's. if there are any that still remember (or want to remember) you may hear some surprisingly familiar arguments....and some of the really nasty things some of them did to help drive other members out of buisiness...not griefing...but nasty nonetheless.
Being concerned for what happens to the other chefs on a server is one of the things I've felt has always seperated chefs from other crafting professions...ws's are the only other profession I know of that do the same maybe the armorsmiths...but I'm not quite as sure on that one. sure its partly one's own fault for going out of buisiness...but thats just it...its only part of the reason...not the only reason. other parts can include but are not limited to: customer's attitudes, other crafters, suppliers, lack of desire to continue (normally as a result from one of the previous 3 reasons).
oh and just as an FYI...I can price well below 50k if I really really wanted to, but I won't...not unless most of the other chefs are willing to do the same. some of the other posters have worked out some calculations showing it can be done for under 40k...I'd agree with that...it can be done...doesn't mean it should be done, but it can.
one last final request Saitek...I noticed one of your other PA mates has responded in this thread, perhaps you could ask a few more to read it...or just that one poster, and see if they get the same impression from my posts...and your subsequent responses...I'm still confused about where some of those responses are coming from...and would be interested to see how many (if any at all) understand some of your responses, I can't but maybe others can...
Dominicus_Saxon
Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:39 am
#37
Wow, I thought I had left grade school a long time ago. This is ridiculous, people. Come on, at least try to act like adults and if you can't then go argue about it someplace else. It's people like you who make the Forums a not-so-fun experience. Who cares how much someone charges, go find another player to buy from. How hard is that ? If you have a problem with someone, handle it one-on-one instead of filling up the Forums with all this garbage. If you can't do that, then can one of you try to be mature and just drop it ? Geez, some people's kids.....
apulieus
Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:55 am
#38
Maybe evil people cleaned out your vendor saitek, but just outof curiousity i created a character and stopped in to check out how well you keep up with demand.
All you have is 17 items and none of them are crates of enhanced food.
Saitek
Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:17 pm
#39
" I even stated that things may have changed since last I checked, so theres no garauntee that the flames will happen...and certainly not from everyone. "
That's not what you said, as I recall you said " try suggesting a price less than 40k a crate for tissues on the BE boards...you'll get flamed off in short order."
"2:1 is that 2 gemstone per credit or 2 credits per gemstone...still not sure which one you mean..."
2 credits for 1 unit, so 200k for 100k of gemstones.
"using the dictionary definition for price fixing doesn't really apply...it states that it has to be an unlawful agreement...as there are no laws on pricing in SWG...there can be no price fixing...at least not how the dictionary would define it."
That's fine, we while use a more analytical approach:
Price = How much something costs
Fixing = To agree on; arrange; set or place definitely
So lets put this together now: To agree on and set how much something costs.
Yes, there can be price fixing, and it's what you are suggesting.
"try asking some of the architects what arguments, attitudes, and opinions that were used by many architects during their undercutting wars."
Hmm, how about, I don't care about architects. Also this relies on the facts that you believe in absolute, that low prices will "ruin" the market. I completely disagree and will not assign myself to those beliefs, or basically live in fear by them. No market will be ruined. Furniture never decays, structures only do if you are negligent, and comparing food to a dinky stim B is like apples and oranges. Most doctors I know are rolling in as many millions as I am, and don't make a living off selling one single item. The demand for food is far higher, and the amount of chefs is far far lower.
You can feel free to live in this frame of mind all you want, but I prefer to enjoy the game and take risks.
"Being concerned for what happens to the other chefs on a server is one of the things I've felt has always seperated chefs from other crafting professions...ws's are the only other profession I know of that do the same maybe the armorsmiths...but I'm not quite as sure on that one."
Big fat disagree on that one. Lots of people from the same professions "get-along" on a single server, we are no different.
"sure its partly one's own fault for going out of buisiness...but thats just it...its only part of the reason...not the only reason. other parts can include but are not limited to: customer's attitudes, other crafters, suppliers, lack of desire to continue (normally as a result from one of the previous 3 reasons)."
No it's your choice to go out of business, because you choose to let these things bother you.
Customer Attitudes: Stop serving @$$holes, I know I do
Other Crafters: Stop worrying about other crafters, worry about the character you are playing. Unless that crafter put down a vendor 10 meters from yours and spends their entire time using mudd-slinging campaigns directly against you, then stop worrying about.
Suppliers: There are always people out there looking to make money, if you loose a supplier get a new one.
Lack of Desire to play: Start making some of your own content, I do all the time.
"oh and just as an FYI...I can price well below 50k if I really really wanted to, but I won't...not unless most of the other chefs are willing to do the same. "
You don't want to price then low, then don't. However then don't complain about undercutters and cheaper prices, because you won't price lower, I am willing to take that risk, thats the difference.
"ne last final request Saitek...I noticed one of your other PA mates has responded in this thread, perhaps you could ask a few more to read it...or just that one poster, and see if they get the same impression from my posts...and your subsequent responses...I'm still confused about where some of those responses are coming from...and would be interested to see how many (if any at all) understand some of your responses, I can't but maybe others can..."
lol already done. One person said you were wrong then went on to tell me why, another person disagreed with most things you said, but also couldn't figure out what you were saying in the other paragraphs, someone said you didn't make any sense and another person told me to write (after he read the thread) "Tell him to eat a bag of **edit**"
That's not what you said, as I recall you said " try suggesting a price less than 40k a crate for tissues on the BE boards...you'll get flamed off in short order."
"2:1 is that 2 gemstone per credit or 2 credits per gemstone...still not sure which one you mean..."
2 credits for 1 unit, so 200k for 100k of gemstones.
"using the dictionary definition for price fixing doesn't really apply...it states that it has to be an unlawful agreement...as there are no laws on pricing in SWG...there can be no price fixing...at least not how the dictionary would define it."
That's fine, we while use a more analytical approach:
Price = How much something costs
Fixing = To agree on; arrange; set or place definitely
So lets put this together now: To agree on and set how much something costs.
Yes, there can be price fixing, and it's what you are suggesting.
"try asking some of the architects what arguments, attitudes, and opinions that were used by many architects during their undercutting wars."
Hmm, how about, I don't care about architects. Also this relies on the facts that you believe in absolute, that low prices will "ruin" the market. I completely disagree and will not assign myself to those beliefs, or basically live in fear by them. No market will be ruined. Furniture never decays, structures only do if you are negligent, and comparing food to a dinky stim B is like apples and oranges. Most doctors I know are rolling in as many millions as I am, and don't make a living off selling one single item. The demand for food is far higher, and the amount of chefs is far far lower.
You can feel free to live in this frame of mind all you want, but I prefer to enjoy the game and take risks.
"Being concerned for what happens to the other chefs on a server is one of the things I've felt has always seperated chefs from other crafting professions...ws's are the only other profession I know of that do the same maybe the armorsmiths...but I'm not quite as sure on that one."
Big fat disagree on that one. Lots of people from the same professions "get-along" on a single server, we are no different.
"sure its partly one's own fault for going out of buisiness...but thats just it...its only part of the reason...not the only reason. other parts can include but are not limited to: customer's attitudes, other crafters, suppliers, lack of desire to continue (normally as a result from one of the previous 3 reasons)."
No it's your choice to go out of business, because you choose to let these things bother you.
Customer Attitudes: Stop serving @$$holes, I know I do
Other Crafters: Stop worrying about other crafters, worry about the character you are playing. Unless that crafter put down a vendor 10 meters from yours and spends their entire time using mudd-slinging campaigns directly against you, then stop worrying about.
Suppliers: There are always people out there looking to make money, if you loose a supplier get a new one.
Lack of Desire to play: Start making some of your own content, I do all the time.
"oh and just as an FYI...I can price well below 50k if I really really wanted to, but I won't...not unless most of the other chefs are willing to do the same. "
You don't want to price then low, then don't. However then don't complain about undercutters and cheaper prices, because you won't price lower, I am willing to take that risk, thats the difference.
"ne last final request Saitek...I noticed one of your other PA mates has responded in this thread, perhaps you could ask a few more to read it...or just that one poster, and see if they get the same impression from my posts...and your subsequent responses...I'm still confused about where some of those responses are coming from...and would be interested to see how many (if any at all) understand some of your responses, I can't but maybe others can..."
lol already done. One person said you were wrong then went on to tell me why, another person disagreed with most things you said, but also couldn't figure out what you were saying in the other paragraphs, someone said you didn't make any sense and another person told me to write (after he read the thread) "Tell him to eat a bag of **edit**"