Chef Archive
Thread: Request when discussing pricing...
Dominicus_Saxon wrote:
Wow, I thought I had left grade school a long time ago. This is ridiculous, people. Come on, at least try to act like adults and if you can't then go argue about it someplace else. It's people like you who make the Forums a not-so-fun experience. Who cares how much someone charges, go find another player to buy from. How hard is that ? If you have a problem with someone, handle it one-on-one instead of filling up the Forums with all this garbage. If you can't do that, then can one of you try to be mature and just drop it ? Geez, some people's kids.....
I tried to drop it Dominicus...I've tried using broad generalized arguments, tried complimenting Saitek, or agreeing with her (at least I thought I was), and still the personal attacks keep coming, and as Saitek herself has stated, if an attack is made, a defense should be expected to follow.
I could point out the numerous contradictions in a lot of Saitek's posts, but I haven't and won't...the 2 cpu is and isn't her price thing was just too confusing for me not to. and I honestly don't know how she draws all these conclusions off of what I say.
just as a summary of things I've been trying to say, complete with lamens terms to help prevent misunderstandings...:
undercutting is fine by me...just think about what impact your actions have on others...thats it, no one has to raise prices, or lower them, asking people to think about something isn't asking for much at all...and if they've already done that, then thats good.
lamens terms: undercutting is ok, as long as you've thought about what you're doing...if you haven't given it any though...then no its not ok...at least not until you have given it some thought.
just because I won't compete with someone's prices doesn't mean I think they're an undercutter, or that I'd get pissed at them for doing so...other factors like stocked vendor etc. also come into play as another poster has previously stated. someone's price may be only 10k below mine, and if I won't lower my price to compete, I'm not going to hold that against them, or call them an undercutter.
lamens terms: price lower if you want to, I'm not going to stop you...just ask that you think about it...and again if you've already done so, then thats fine.
I don't want an undercutting war to happen...lowering prices is a good thing...to a point (there always has to be a point or giving everything away for free to everyone would be the ultimate goal). I'm only suggesting that prices be within a certain range (even that range is debatable, and my range was very broad so it might include almost everyone's prices to begin with), so why is that such a bad thing? its a suggestion, take it, leave it, ignore it....thats up to anyone to decide for themselves. I don't seem to recall anyone objecting to the price per charge system we had before the revamp...and thats a more clearly defined form of price fixing...x charges of product y = price z....where as my suggestion is price between x + 50k, and x - 50k...where x is some number that can be agreed upon.
lamens terms: lowering prices and undercutting wars are 2 entirely different entities. prices will all inevitably lower from the inflated post-patch hysteria...or at least they should. undercutting wars are extremely harmful to everyone involved, and for those who aren't, hence they are bad...very bad. no one really objected this strongly to the previous system of per charge pricing, so why object so fiercly to a suggestion of a range (and yes cask drinks would not be in the same "range" as small glass drinks, etc...that just wouldn't be fair). of course there would still (as there always has been) be no objections to free food/drinks for friends/PA mates...I don't think anyone would argue with that...but prices for friends/PA mates shouldn't be compared to prices for the general population.
side note: doctors make tons of money off of buffs. I noticed a lot of "buff pack" shops selling buff packs for 8k for 18 use packs or so...which translates into 18k at the fairly low price of 1k per stat. 10k profit and no crafting or harvesting required. rarely will you see a doctor that has gotten rich off of stim b's, or one that is still willing to market them, while there seems to always be a buffing doc in front of the coronet starport....sometimes 2 or 3...or more.
I do not believe I've called anyone an undercutter...maybe my 100k+ below server average (I think I used 150k as a sample number) number would call a group of people undercutters...but I neither know who they are...or if there are any for that matter....each server has its own prices...and if persay on Naritus Saitek's prices are less than 50k below the server average...that wouldn't make Saitek an undercutter regardless of what Saitek's prices are(I don't know either of those prices...so it is possible...even if someone priced at 10k a crate...if the server average was 60k...thats well within my example range...). which would also mean that the person who said they charge 75k for a crate of cask brandy would not be an undercutter by that definition....whereas most others on this board may feel otherwise.
lamens terms: I will not call anyone an undercutter directly, if my definition would define you as one...well that 150k number was just an example, thrown out purely for arguments sake...a more appropriate number may be lower or higher....but 50k for a crate of quality cask brandy is extremely low...and certainly not a common thing, if there are chefs that price this low and maintain a stocked vendor...
the bulk of my last few posts have simply been about my lack of understanding of where some of Saitek's responses have come from...if someone says "it takes 20 years for an apple tree to grow to a point where it can bear fruit"...then someone else responds with "stop telling me to eat apples"...the person who said the first line is going to be very confused and want to know how he/she was suggesting that the other person eat apples...yeah yeah kinda a bad example...but similar.
lamen's terms: I have only been asking for some clarification on what I felt were some confusing replies, well that and pointing out some obvious flaws in a few (not all) of her arguments...not that I felt what she said was untrue or a lie, just confusing to quote a post with sarcastically stated facts...and reply with telling me to stop telling her to price higher. maybe I've misunderstood a lot of what she's said...but I can't know that unless I ask her to explain it either again, or in a manner in which I can understand...I will keep asking until she either gives up trying to explain, or explains it where I can understand it.
I noticed apulieus' post regarding the stock on Saitek's vendor...my original post was directed at those "able to keep up", having a vendor with 17 items, and none of them BE enhanced crates is not my personal definition of keeping up, so thus my original post is in no way directed at Saitek. my post was targetted more at those able to keep a well stocked vendor at the extremely low prices. by well stocked I mean having 10 or so crates of BE enhanced products up almost all the time available for purchase (i.e. not on a vendor as a custom/special order).
side note: like apulieus I have no way of knowing if someone just decided to walk in and buy everything up prior to apulieus visiting Saitek's vendor...so I may be wrong on this. it may also be possible that Saitek's stock decided to go back to the stockroom after having been on the vendor for 30 days...again no one but Saitek would know this (unless someone else runs Saitek's vendor for her...but thats a different issue).
and one last final note Dominicus...pricing is a key issue for any crafting profession, if you really want to see some bad debates about pricing...try reading the BE forums...maybe not at the moment...but things were really bad a lot worse than this...if things were as bad as you say Garva/Jeassa would have locked this thread days ago...yes its been around for that long.
"I noticed apulieus' post regarding the stock on Saitek's vendor...my original post was directed at those "able to keep up", having a vendor with 17 items, and none of them BE enhanced crates is not my personal definition of keeping up, so thus my original post is in no way directed at Saitek. my post was targetted more at those able to keep a well stocked vendor at the extremely low prices. by well stocked I mean having 10 or so crates of BE enhanced products up almost all the time available for purchase (i.e. not on a vendor as a custom/special order)."
Most of my BE crates are sold before they hit the vendor. Anything I do put on the vendor sells out within the hour, which is fine by me, I dont like stock sitting around it clogs inventory. Even though my guild mates get free food, most of them track my vendor (and follow me) and buy out the vendor. It's pretty funny actually, the other day, a member saw me go to stock the vendor and followed me, bought a bunch of stuff and LD'd immediately while I was still yelling at him.
If anything I deal more in custom order, whether its 50 crates or 1. Hold day on all crates is only 2 days, past that it goes back in for sale. Delivery is available if it is more convenient for me, otherwise its pickup only. I work on high volume production, high sales. If it sits in my factory, for longer than a day I start having inventory problems. I personally don't care if my vendor is filled up with 300 items, it moves so fast anyways. Some poeple say that they never want their vendor to be empty because of customers stopping by, I dont really worry about that. I have a well known reputation for quality and low prices so most people order from me. My partner stocks most of the vendors, where as I take in bulk sales, and distribute the orders between us. Prices on my server range from 90k (me) to 500k , so really there is no set price.
As far as "keeping up" I would say that I do. I mass produce, and mass distribute. I can fill an order for 50 BE crates pretty quickly, and still have capacty to complete the other orders. I don't really judge "keeping up" with how stocked a vendor is, anyone can be caught up by raising prices, producing mass quantities of something regularly and consistantly, is how I measure "keeping up", Then again, I'm a mass producer. Always have been. I would compare some chefs to a mom and pop delicatessen, where as I am more like Nabisco.
All production is currently done in shifts, 3 to 5 days of producing BE foods, then 3 to 5 of producing regular foods. This schedule follows the BE production capacity.
Dsabre wrote:
yes Saitek I would agree that in a sense you do keep up...but the reason I define "keeping up" as having a fairly well stocked vendor (some may think even having 10 crates of BE enhanced product is not well stocked) is simple....
if a lot of people come by someones vendor and constantly see a large supply of brandy at oh lets say 60k (sample number...not in any way intended to indicate any particular chef's prices) a crate for 400+ buff, 40 minute duration, 18 use, 49 filling brandy (not the best...but probably average stats)...and lets also say that after 4 visits to that same shop over the course of 3 weeks...there are always plenty of crates available. it will have an effect on what that customer will expect from other chefs...and thus cause more grief for the other chefs as that customer may choose to let the other chefs know how much they are "price gauging" because this other vendor they saw had lower prices regardless of whether the other chef's price is 80k or 200k...sadly enough there are still plenty of these people around. if this same person came by a vendor once and saw a decently stocked vendor with super low prices...but the next time back didn't see the same things...or much of anything at all, theres a good chance (not a garauntee) that that customer may realize that some of the higher prices are the result of wanting to keep a stocked vendor...and thus will not go cursing out every other chef with higher prices. ignoring customers is something that is not entirely difficult to do...but when theres a new one coming at the rate of what may seem like 1 a day...it does take its toll.
Most customers I know, would NOT appreciate higher prices to keep a stocked vendor, but they do appreciate a cost that is relative to the cost of the crate.
This is a typical reaction from a customer (for me) "Wow! These prices are great, how come you are so much cheaper", and I always tell them, that my costs are lower so I can sell for lower. I never ever say that the chef they used to buy from was gouging them, simply because I don't know what their production costs are.
on a side note...is there any way to block g-mails from someone in game? ignore can block tells (does it also block g-mails?)...ban can block them from the shop...and hoping a shuttle/etc. can take you out of say/shout range...but I guess they're getting more resourceful...CSR's would be better used dealing with the "mall go poof" type issues, so I don't want to submit any tickets or anything like that.
I'm not familiar with the term "g-mail", as far as not wasting a CSR's time, they are paid to help you and answer questions so I would say submit the ticket anyways. It also seems like they are broken up into divsions, I dont know if there is a division between harassment and bugs, but I know for example there are CSR's who only deal with Ebay sales.
this is why I only have an issue with "undercutters" who do not think about (and hopefully realize the implications) what impact their actions may/will have...that are able to keep a well stocked vendor...its a small percentage of what anyone might call an undercutter...and one would have to meet all 3 requirements...but its these people that I feel may lead to the undercutting wars that I doubt anyone wants to see. maybe I should add the additional requirement of having to have good quality products...211 buff power, 30 minute, 18 use, 52 filling casked BE'd brandy...ummm sell that for anything you want...if people would even buy it.
I doubt you will see a huge problem with undercutting wars in this profession. Food is too popular, there are not enough chefs, the process is extremely time consuming. And overall I find customers to be rather loyal.
I'm not even sure if there are any of these people who are still chefs...maybe there are, maybe there aren't. but its only those people that I would be "pissed off at", or take any form of action against. any other "undercutter" can continue pricing at whatever they want...give stuff away I still won't care...I may think you're crazy if you do it all the time...unless you're trying to master merchant...but thats about it.
What action would you take against them exactly? I'm pretty there is nothing you can do.
price gougers...(the 300k+ a crate sellers)...still don't like em much...even more so when they start demanding free schems from BE's...but thats a different issue (result of my debate with ArthurDentOnBria during one of the BE additive pricing discussions that took place a week or so after publish 6 went live).
I've personally never expected anything free from my guildmates or anyone else, but more often than not it turns out that way.