Chef Archive
Thread: Proposal on reducing BE's contribution to food effectiveness
Another point, is tailors do not make 1k + shirts a week with BE additives. If we didnt use so many and have to keep up with soo many crates it might not be such a big deal. If one hand crafting equaled a crate's number of usages; I would probably be fairly happy with the current BE setup, and I would charge a lot less.
Denoby Master Chef
Daekel wrote:
Oh no! You can get better food if you use something that another class makes!
At least you can make them without them......
DE's a REQUIRED Architect part (A Very Nasty Expensive one to boot!)
Armorsmiths have REQUIRED Tailor parts
Architects have REQUIRED Tailor and DE parts
You get my point?
All the additives do is make your stuff better, and lets not mention that from a roleplay perspective it really makes a lot of sense.
Guess what, some of us do not like, nor will sell less than the best stuff they can make. So your point of we dont have to use them is wellpointless. Hmm lets take your example and apply it to the Chef,,,, make that DE item with the architect component optional, but if the usethearchitect item itdoubles the power of the droid. hmmmmmwhat would a good DE do?
I dont know the cost of said architect component, but I have 25k invested inmeatalone for a crate ofBE tissue.Then addin BE costs, factory times (3 days for a full run) and flora costs on top of that. If you would read more than one post on this forum you would notice that no one iscomplaining about using trim in casks. (tailor item required) The problemiswhen the food, OUR FOOD,becomes a delivery mechanism for another class's buffs, as it has become now.
Denoby Master Chef
Ja-van wrote:
Guess what, some of us do not like, nor will sell less than the best stuff they can make. So your point of we dont have to use them is wellpointless. Hmm lets take your example and apply it to the Chef,,,, make that DE item with the architect component optional, but if the usethearchitect item itdoubles the power of the droid. hmmmmmwhat would a good DE do?
I dont know the cost of said architect component, but I have 25k invested inmeatalone for a crate ofBE tissue.Then addin BE costs, factory times (3 days for a full run) and flora costs on top of that. If you would read more than one post on this forum you would notice that no one iscomplaining about using trim in casks. (tailor item required) The problemiswhen the food, OUR FOOD,becomes a delivery mechanism for another class's buffs, as it has become now.
Denoby Master Chef
I don't think you are getting his point... The Architect Item for DE's that I believe he is reffering to is a Power Core. This is 1 turbine Generator, 1 powerconditioner, and 1energy distributer(Master Artisan for the second two) total resources 2234 including the 3 sub components. (Cheapest I have found these for sale is 10k a piece) Lets compare to this to what 75 resources for a food additive? Food additive is NOT required to make brandy, Power core is required to make a power droid. Yes your right if it made the droid more powerfull to use it as an optional component then yes I would but I am not given that choice.
Are tailors clothes not a delivery mechanism for BE tissues as well? At least your food does something besides look pretty before a BE component is put in it...
I think that perhaps they shoud re-adjust the expirementation on your foods so that you can make it better but food with an additive should still be vastly superior (AKA Double)to what you can make without. Crying nerf on another profession's livelyhood is dumb! And I think that if Chefs pursue this issue it is only going to hurt your customers in the end.
One other thing, comparing player crafted items to armor and weapon drop items is like comparing dropped weapons to crafted ones. It is a totally seperate issue because you can not Expirement a krayt tissue up. So lets pretend that the suppliment is required, your just like any other crafting class with an interdependancy on another...
Dridstar wrote:
One more thing...I'm really tired of this argument that chef's are sooo dependant on other classes and no other class depends on them. Well, you're wrong. Every fighter class "depends" on your food for buffs. Have you checked the HAM's on mob's lately?! If they don't now, then they WILL realize how effective your food is. If you can't gather your own resources, then branch out and give up most of that useless Merchant tree. All you need is Advertising 3 and MAYBE and extra vendor. Get some combat skills and get your own meat. Jeese what a whiney lot you folks have turned out to be. You've just been handed one of the best upgrades for anyone since launch and STILL you complain.
OK lets fix BE make it so your petsare twice as good IF you feed them optionalpet chow made by the chefs. Also make it so thepet chow takes twice asmany resources as your pet did and just as long to make, in essence your pet is the result of teh chefs skill not yours.Yes the patch diversified our foods and it looks good on paper. Yes the patch has potential with the stat buffs. I do not like how I am no longer the one that determines teh quality of MY stuff. Name me one other class where teh skill of another profession so drastically determines the quality of another crafters item. Tailor is not an example that is a completely different line of clothing, AND is notmass produced infull factory runs.Is the armor made by teh armorsmith determined by the quality of the items from the tailor?
If had the choice to keep the old food or new stuff... I would go old food. At least then I could determine how good my food was, not beg, plead, and sell my soul to get someone else to get me the stuff I need to play my class. The difference is VOLUME. Sure it is easy to get a crate or 2 to make stuff like most other interclass dependancies, but getting factory runs and keeping up with 320crates just to make 1 finished run of 40 crates is insane.
Call me whiny if you want, I wasnt whining before the patch I was doing quite well and was quite happy. Evenif you may think the food was bugged and worthless. I can tell you it was not bugged and was not worthless. We have more items that may be useful now, but most, at least until the new combat system comes out, are not worth the time/cost to make for the benifit. Which leaves us back to where we was before the patch maybe 10 items that work/useful.
It is not that we dont think the foods are not useful now. Some are quite nice and a lot more valuable to the customers, the problem is the fact that a master chef is not the master of the food that he/she makes. The BE is, and that is simplynot right.
Denoby Master Chef
Gnoop your points are well taken, one thing to keep in mind though is that chefs do not think in terms of 1 item. We never/seldom hand make anything. No one wants a singlefood itemthey want a crate of 25. So instead of 80 units for the additives it is 2000 (500 of thatcost me 50cpu to get and is a hassle to get at that price)then another 375 for another run to make the additive. I feel one of the problems is with the volume that we do. It would be betterif we didnt have to have 3 factories tied up for 1 week just to make 1 run of a BE enhanced drink. Also for someone like myself BE componets are the same as required. I will not make something that is only half as good as I could make it. It would be like another profession only using half of there experimentation points. Yeah that is my choice and a problem that I created for myself, but I am not going to lower my standards for my items because of this patch. I pride myself on making or trying to make teh best stuff on my sever. I will give up chef before I lower that standard.
As I suggested had they made the tissue a simplecomponet like everything else,and allowed us to experiment on the additive how we choose then I would not have had as much of a problem with this interdependancy. This way we would feel that we are the ones with the ability to make the food how we choose. It would also make a master better than those withjust 9 experimentation points andthe brandy schematic.The only complaint then would have been for crates to have a 50 limit not 25
The problem is not the BE, if interdependancy is going to be required so be it. Just let me be the chef not the BE.
Denoby Master Chef
Message Edited by Ja-van on 02-25-2004 01:07 AM
Message Edited by Ja-van on 02-25-2004 01:13 AM
Dridstar wrote:
Look...cut the BE supplements effectiveness and we'll just stop making them. It's really that easy. Then all you chefs can make your own food and be happy about it. If there's no demand, then there's no market. You seem to want it both ways.
But that's not what I want. Ok, it might be what some people want but I'm remaining optimistic that they're in the minority. {/mood pollyanna}
What I'm trying to do is to find some way to keep the very nice additions that BE supplements can give foods, but still feel like I'm actually contributing something to the end result.
Let's look at it this way. Right now a skilled BE with good resources can experiment the tissue's effectiveness up to 80%, making a +84 Broad Spectrum Nutrient. All I do is just add water, mix, and get a +84 medium additive. I throw that into a +150 Brandy (considered low end, maybe even worthless). Poof, another +126 to the buff and I have a very sellable +276 Brandy (well, depending on how cheap I could get the tissue). Yipee, a trained monkey could do the same. If I make the effort to get the resources to make the Brandy +200, using the additive now makes the final result a nice profitable +368.
New way: a skilled BE with good resources experiments the tissue's effectiveness up to 80%, making a +42 BSN. I use my knowlege of the crafting system to find some good water (or other resources if that route gets taken) and mix that and the +42 tissue into the additive. I then experiment on the additive's effectiveness, getting up around 80% and end up with a +84 medium additive. Put that into a brandy, and the customer ends up with the same results as above.
The end result to the customer is the same. The BE's business is the same, since the tissue is still required to make the additive. The only change is in the middle where a chef's skill is needed to make the resulting food as good as it can be. Personally, I don't think that's an unreasonable request.
As for the dependency complainers....wellthey're either people who are having troubles adjusting, or people like Ja-van who don't seem to mind the use of components from other professions but disagree with the amount of boost that is completely out of our hands. It's that second group (which I also consider myself in) that I started this thread for.
Ja-van wrote:
Guess what, some of us do not like, nor will sell less than the best stuff they can make. So your point of we dont have to use them is wellpointless. Hmm lets take your example and apply it to the Chef,,,, make that DE item with the architect component optional, but if the usethearchitect item itdoubles the power of the droid. hmmmmmwhat would a good DE do?
I dont know the cost of said architect component, but I have 25k invested inmeatalone for a crate ofBE tissue.Then addin BE costs, factory times (3 days for a full run) and flora costs on top of that. If you would read more than one post on this forum you would notice that no one iscomplaining about using trim in casks. (tailor item required) The problemiswhen the food, OUR FOOD,becomes a delivery mechanism for another class's buffs, as it has become now.
Denoby Master Chef
I have read several posts on this board and the Chef community is great! I was just trying to point out the interdependancy of other classes besides yours. You are not a delivery mechanism for someone elses buffs, their tissues are usless without a Chef and you are more usefull with them.
Lets use an analogy. Lets take a TKA, they are pretty usefull right? How much more usefull are they with a full set of doctor buffs and a dancer Buff? If we factor in just HAM they are TWICE as usefull se a trend here? Take tilors and BE. I buy a shirt from a tailor and its a shirt. I buy one with a BE +Bleed tissue in it and all of a sudden it got more useful. (Arguably twice if not 15 times more usfull in the the case of a good tissue)
And just so you know I have made a small fortune selling sub components to other crafters, Power Conditioners, Memory Modules, Power cores and the list goes on. Lets say you pay in total 50k for a componet for something you are going to sell for 100k. What is the big deal? Your harvesting costs are negligible when it comes to the final price being charged for this stuff.
sciguyCO wrote:
I use my knowlege of the crafting system to find some good water (or other resources if that route gets taken) and mix that and the +42 tissue into the additive. I then experiment on the additive's effectiveness, getting up around 80% and end up with a +84 medium additive. Put that into a brandy, and the customer ends up with the same results as above.
But now look at the *reality* of the situation. Everyone with the means to is selling drinks in large glasses and casks, on Corbantis at least, non BE Brandy still can't be kept in stock because it sells out so fast. The latest thing seems to be that the idea of plates has been brought up.. PLATES! The same thing as those glass containers that were so reviled at their inception, you now want to add to the rest of your food. Regardless of how the top 1% of the class feels, the rest of the class, I believe, is under the impression that even if you don't have a pocket BE, your food items still sell and will continue to do so. At any rate that's all I've seen. Chef food moves faster than stimpacks in some cases since they are used for more things than just HAM bar healing, we've got the highest turnover in products overall. If some items don't sell as well, *shrug* you can't have everything. Some people just don't see the need for certain items, it's life, and the power of choice we're all born with and you can't change that.
I agree that cutting base effectiviety from the BE end is a good idea (50% seems like a good figure) and adding it to resource control and experimentation on the chef's side. If you consider that BEs are doubling the effectivity of our products currently I think most would agree that the BE end has too much influence over the finished product. 75/25 chef/BE sounds more reasonable to me.
As it stands now w/out BE adds chef products are markedly (marketably)inferior. Since it is easier to alter the effect of BE additives then it would be to revamp the entire resource/experimentation combination for stock food production adding more in the way of chef experimentaion/skill to the finished additive product is a viable way to go.