Chef Archive
Thread: Proposal on reducing BE's contribution to food effectiveness
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sciguyCO
Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:11 pm
#1
Before I get a bunch of angry Bio-engineers jumping on me, this is not intended in any way to remove the contribution that BE's add from their biological components. What many people have stated, though, is thatthe making of a good end product depends more on what BE additives you have access to than any particular cheffing skill (either in-game or the player's knowlege).
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm using my standard terminology.
Tissue: BE-crafted food bio component (graphic of a green coffee pot)
Additive: Chef-crafted component that includes a tissue (graphic of red glass cylinder)
The new foods tend to have a narrower range between the min and max of various stats compared to pre-revamp foods, meaning that the difference between a 40% experimented food (obtainable without much effort on skills or resource gathering) and an 80% experimented food is smaller than it used to be. An extra dose or two, lasting 5-10m longer, 3-5 filling reduction is all we see from the extra effort. With something like broad-spectrum nutrient giving +75% or more to the buff size, we get the situation where the BE's work makes a larger difference in our product than our own.
So, people want to bring more end-product control out of the BE's lab and into the chef's kitchen. My proposal is this: reduce the effectiveness of the tissues (maybe 1/3 to 1/2 the power), and add experimentation to the additives themselves. The additive would have oneexperimentation category which applies some multiplier or addition to the effectiveness of the included tissue. A top-end tissue used in an additive made with good resources experimented highly would end up at (or maybe above to represent the extra work this new system requires) the current top-end tissue bonuses.
Now, the other thing that this may require is re-doing the additive recipes. Would making these use resources other than water be too much? I'd definitely want these to be harvestatble resources, though(no meat, hide, bone or milk) since those are already required for the tissue. 5 Water, 15 Organic for a Light additive, maybe? How specific should the resources be (organic, flora, cereal, domesticated rice, Yavinian wild wheat)? If the recipes aren't changed, the additives are going to have to depend solely on DR and/or OQ, since those are the only stats Water has.
This would still give the additives a continued use in high-end products, but bring more of the quality control into the hands of the chef making the additive. It would mean some added complexity, especially if the resource requirements change. It will also have some effect on up-and-coming chefs, since a lack of chef experimentation points will mean that their medium additives won't be as good as ones made by higher-level chefs even if they used the same tissues. Oh, and speaking of which, since Light additives are in Dom Arts IV, the quality of those would depend on Artisan skills.
So, what do people think? Does this sound too rough on the BE's? Is adding experimentation to a component an undesirable complication? What kind of power split between BE and chef should these have (50% power from BE tissue, 50% from chef experimentaiton; 40/60, 25/75)?
Or am I just making a mountain out of a molehill, and this doesn't bother as many people as I though?
Eaca
Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:03 pm
#2
Few disclaimers... First off I am not a chef, just a very interested consumer. Second I am a huge fan of the work sciguyCO has put into this comunity, and I keep aprintout of the food chart he made on my desk for quick reference while I'm developing my new food stratagy. Third I am dedicating quite a bit of time in game and out, and quite a bit of in game resources playing with all your new goodies so I can find out what works best for myself, and to be able to make good recomendations to friends in the future.
That being said, while I understand where you are coming from as a professional who has pride in his work, what you propose sounds to me, a consumer, like it would reduce the overall supply of high quality food. As it stands right now none of the chefs I know can stock thier vendors with BE enhanced foods fast enough. Scouts and rangers cannot meet the demand for meat. You all have easily the second highest consumed product in the game after stims, and as all the kinks are worked out of this system and more casual users see the benefits of your food, the demand will only increase. I think I saw a post that stated it takes 14 factory days to make one run of BE Vasarian Brandy, holy **self-edit**.
As a user, I don't want to see the quality of your product drop from a self imposed "nerf" which is what it kinda sounds like to me. Sure the min and max stay the same, you just make it harder on yourself to get to the max.
As far as being too rough on the BE's... between chef additives, tailor tissues, and running around poking rancors in the butt with needles, they seem like a pretty busy class themselves to me. If anything they need a break too 
CJadefire
Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:30 pm
#3
So, people want to bring more end-product control out of the BE's lab and into the chef's kitchen.
This, I agree with. But I don't want to do it by experimenting on some other class' tissue (that we have an extra pointless factory run to turn them into additives is annoying enough). It seems pretty simple to me, depending on how well the next publish's "resource stats will matter, really" promises go - up what we can do, and lower what BEs can do. Give us more power over our additiveless product, and reduce tissue potency. We'll still buy plenty of tissues, and we won't go out of business if we have no BE alt.
If a BE tissue doubled the colors tailors could imbue into clothing, there'd be riots. Why are we willing to put up with it in our profession?
This, I agree with. But I don't want to do it by experimenting on some other class' tissue (that we have an extra pointless factory run to turn them into additives is annoying enough). It seems pretty simple to me, depending on how well the next publish's "resource stats will matter, really" promises go - up what we can do, and lower what BEs can do. Give us more power over our additiveless product, and reduce tissue potency. We'll still buy plenty of tissues, and we won't go out of business if we have no BE alt.
If a BE tissue doubled the colors tailors could imbue into clothing, there'd be riots. Why are we willing to put up with it in our profession?
PBN
Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:38 pm
#4
This is pure wishlist, but since you broached (sp) the subject, here it goes.
What I think would be fair to both parties is to use a system that works very much like you said. Allow the tissues to be made as is (perhaps with a lighter resource requirement) and cut their base effectiveness in down. Forgive the laziness, but I'm not going to go search for the actual ranges that have been posted (by you, I believe /smile).There are a few issues to deal with here. Resource reqs for the BE's, resource reqs for the chef, and experimentation on both sides. I'll try to address them all.
There are 4 categories of tissue, 3 strengths. As with more complex issues allow the strength to increase appropriately, AND give fair overlap. By the last bit I mean that a well-crafted light additive should be able to surpass the effectiveness of a moderately crafted medium, and so on.
As such, I envision the following.
To convert from tissue to additive will require the Appropriate statistics, more advanced additives require more specific needs. The chef is given a single experimentation line "effectiveness" when creating the tissue. The range of the effectiveness is set based upon the quality of the tissue and the properties required for the tissue type. This will allow the chef to "theoretically" double the strength of the tissue he employs. (assuming a perfect 1000 attribute(s))
Light Tissue - +0 - +50, can be experimented to +0 - +100 Additive
Medium Tissue +51 - +100, can be experimented to +51 - +200 Additive
Heavy Tissue +101 - +150, can be experimented to +101 - +300 Additive
In all tissue cases, I believe the necessary ingredients to convert should be around 25 resource: 10 water, 10 flora, 5 creature (meat)
Nutrition requirements 75% PE, 25% OQ
================
Light - 10 Milk, 10 Flora, 5 Creature
Medium - 10 Milk, 10 Vegetable, 5 Meat
Heavy - 10 Domesticated Milk, 10 Greens, 5 Carnivore Meat
Flavor Requirements 75% Flavor, 25% OQ
===============
Light - 10 Flora, 5 Creature
Medium - 10 Fruit, 5 Meat
Heavy - 10 Berry, 5 Herbivore Meat
Filling Requirements 75% Decay Resistance, 25% OQ
===============
Light - 10 Water, 10 Flora, 5 Creature
Medium - 10 Water, 10 Cereal, 5 Meat
heavy - 10 Water, 10 Rice, 5 Domesticated Meat
Replication Requirements 66 OQ, 33% Decay Resistance
===================
Light - 10 Water, 10 Flora, 5 Creature
Medium - 10 Water, 10 Vegetable, 5 Meat
Heavy - 10 Water, 10 Fungus (think yeast), 5 Carnivore Meat
So, an example...
Let's pick everyone's favorite... and see how it compares...
my base mix (unenhanced) of a VB was +160
I'm going for effect (nutrition) so I get the best milk, veggies and meat I can find and speak to my friendly neighborhood BE.
She comes up with an excellent Tissue at +90 (note, that's40 out of 50 range, so averaged properties are around 800 in this case)
I mix that with the goodies I found (for ease - let's say averaged properties are at 900) - I can experiment this up to 90 percent above base for a finished tissue at +171 (rounded down)
Using this tissue I can make a finished brandy of up to (160 *2.71) = +433
Just about the 430 I get now. the difference is --- in the above scenario... I have a LOT more control to achieve that result.
Misterie.
PS - this also allows us to better guage the quality of additives, AND the maximum potential that additives can bring to better plan our wares. ie. we can make a plain vanilla sample, see the additives that might be added, and decide IN ADVANCE if it is worth the investment in resources and time.
TuskKiller
Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:39 pm
#5
BE's need something.... I like the inter-profession dependancy aspect of the game.
If you don't want to deal with BEs.... don't!
Considering the cost/hassle of making BE products.... to many it's not worth the extra profit.
I still make PLENTY of money on my non-BE/non-Trim Brandy.... do that and be happy.... still make more than with Fishak....
With extrahassle and haggling should come extra reward with the BE additives. (The extra run of adding water to the additives seems pointless tho)... that's why Chefs are making so much money.
non-BE +224 brandy, my BE is +404.... less than twice as much, but I charge 5X the price.... I'm happy selling both.
Cleopas
Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:40 pm
#6
I must say that this is the first thing that I disagree with you about Sci. My reasoning is two fold:
1. I think the more we depend on each other, the better. This isn't a first person shooter game (as we all know) and therefore, the chef depends on the BE who depends on the Ranger, who depends on the WS who depends on.....etc
2. I really believe that this would cause our product to be "nerfed" (actually changed is a better term) to quickly after a fix that I must say is pleasing to me and my customers ( I was quite skeptical at teh onset).
2 centavos
Ezran
Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:55 pm
#7
I like it. But I don't think we can get new additives out of the DEVs. If the past is any indication, we need to push for small changes, rather than sweeping ones.
The way I see it, The reliance on BE supplements needs to decrease. But whatever is done to BE supplements, the reciprocal should be done to food (minus any balancing laft to be done).
Example: Terrata
Currently:
Worst case Food + Worst Case Heavy Nutrition Additive
+13.3 camoflage for 12min
Filling 29
Quantity 2
Best Case Food + No Additive (All Nutrition Experimenation)
+12 camoflage for ~14min
Filling ~27
Quantity 2
Best Case Food + Best Case Addtive
+26.4 camoflage for ~14min
Filling ~27
Quantity 2
Proposed (1/3 BE Additive Power):
Worst case Food + Worst Case Heavy Nutrition Additive
+9.1 camoflage for 12min
Filling 29
Quantity 2
Best Case Food + No Additive (All Nutrition Experimenation)
+22 camoflage for ~14min
Filling ~27
Quantity 2
Best Case Food + Best Case Additive
+30.8 camoflage for ~14min
Filling ~27
Quantity 2
Currently, a Chef with no experimentation and resources scraped of the side of a wall can make stuff better than the best, if they have an additive, even if the additive is made with Bantha Poodoo. With the proposed chages, the same situation cannot occur, but the Additives can still lead to better products. In fact, even better than before.
Min/Maxers can still have "The Best" made with BE additives, and Chefs can have regain control of their food.
Good stuff Kriles. I'm behind it.
The way I see it, The reliance on BE supplements needs to decrease. But whatever is done to BE supplements, the reciprocal should be done to food (minus any balancing laft to be done).
Example: Terrata
Currently:
Worst case Food + Worst Case Heavy Nutrition Additive
+13.3 camoflage for 12min
Filling 29
Quantity 2
Best Case Food + No Additive (All Nutrition Experimenation)
+12 camoflage for ~14min
Filling ~27
Quantity 2
Best Case Food + Best Case Addtive
+26.4 camoflage for ~14min
Filling ~27
Quantity 2
Proposed (1/3 BE Additive Power):
Worst case Food + Worst Case Heavy Nutrition Additive
+9.1 camoflage for 12min
Filling 29
Quantity 2
Best Case Food + No Additive (All Nutrition Experimenation)
+22 camoflage for ~14min
Filling ~27
Quantity 2
Best Case Food + Best Case Additive
+30.8 camoflage for ~14min
Filling ~27
Quantity 2
Currently, a Chef with no experimentation and resources scraped of the side of a wall can make stuff better than the best, if they have an additive, even if the additive is made with Bantha Poodoo. With the proposed chages, the same situation cannot occur, but the Additives can still lead to better products. In fact, even better than before.
Min/Maxers can still have "The Best" made with BE additives, and Chefs can have regain control of their food.
Good stuff Kriles. I'm behind it.
Numen
Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:00 pm
#8
A chef can use the worst possible components and the BE can use the worst possible materials and the final product is still better than what any chef alone can make. No other profession is like that with enhancers. I have nothing against having a BE tissue making a superior food, I just don't want a person that has a BE friend to be instantly better than every chef in the game that doesn't.
Some complete idiot in crafting can't take a krayt tissue and dig up some materials and make a gun better than every master weaponsmith can make without krayt tissue.
I don't know if the solution is to add one more experimentation step in the process though. I guess I don't want making an additive to me more complicated than making the final product and that would be true if 2-3 resources were needed.
I think just making the ranges a lot larger does the same thing. On the BE side and the chef side. I also believe that a perfect light additive should be better than a crappy medium. Changing the ranges would solve the problem with almost no extra effort on our parts.
Ezran
Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:06 pm
#9
Numen wrote:
Some complete idiot in crafting can't take a krayt tissue and dig up some materials and make a gun better than every master weaponsmith can make without krayt tissue.
Ah, but Krayt tissue is the top of the scale as far as weapon enhancements go.
I have to use armor as an example, cause I know the loot better. There are many different drops that can be used in any kind of armour (Voritor hide, Fambaa Hide, Sharnaff Hide). Krayt Dragon Armour segment is the best, and can only be used in Composite (I don't know of a Krayt drop that goes in any armour).
If a poor armoursmith with poor resources used Voritor hide to craft composite, it would still be garbage. But if a novice chef used the worst quality resources and additives they could find to craft food, it would always turn out better than a Master's without.
Meplorium
Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:19 pm
#10
There is a few ways to take this. First everyone was in an uproar about the food on test center that used the bantha poodoo. On live the food is good. So there is some play with resources and the BE additive is a must. Though the point about the ranges is valid, especially for filling and quanity, especailly in food. The ranges need to be laxed in a way that allows better food to begood with better resources and bad food to be made with bad resources. Right now it just seems to be a few points here and there. Even bad stuff isn't so bad when used, but you do get better results with better resources. That effect could be more pronouced.
As to the BE additives, some of them take more resources than the food they enhance. For all that extra work and resources it had better double at least one stat to make it worth while. So I can't aggree on a nerf to BE additives, otherwise we will be back to where we were before with them, ie them being useless. I do feel the pain. I have a BE yet only 10 exp points. Unless you have ready access to BE suppliments and 12 points, your stuff is crap, because it is not the best. I will tell you every crafting profession is like this. Unless you have the best resources the server ever spawned with extra exp points then your stuff is sub par. This is rather frustrating and annoying when you aren't the best, but at least you have something to work towards after that grind. After all being a master is more than spending the skill points and grinding through a profession. It is having the knowledge of the different products, how best to make them and what to harvests to make them. Chef is not special in this reguard nor should it be. Becoming a master among masters is the corner stone of the crafting game. To this end we do need a more dynamic range, not a nerf in additives, which securing that supplyline to addtives is a master among master traits.
My suggestion is to find a steady supply of at least schematics for the additives. That should easy your worries about additives and their effects. The exp range being too narrow is a valid point and should be worked on.
Ja-van
Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:33 pm
#11
Cleopas wrote:
I must say that this is the first thing that I disagree with you about Sci. My reasoning is two fold:
1. I think the more we depend on each other, the better. This isn't a first person shooter game (as we all know) and therefore, the chef depends on the BE who depends on the Ranger, who depends on the WS who depends on.....etc
Sorry, but I dissagree with you here. I am the chef, it is my responsibility to make my foods. So what do I do,, I depend on the rangers, and I depend on the BE. If they do not provide then I am screwed and I cant not make my stuff. I am the one that is doing all of the leg work, begging, fussing, and selling my sould just to get the resources for the BE additives, and then hope I can find a BE that is willing to make the tissue. If I can not get this stuff done then I can not make MY food. See the trend. There is no interdependency. There is just us at the mercy of the animal harvesters (which there were far too few before the revamp), and the BE. Saying that the combat classes are dependant on us doesnt work either.
We are at the mercy of others. This interdependency works well when you make a couple hundred items a week like most other professions. We make a few THOUSAND items per week. I truely feel the Devs do not comprend this. The logistics of making any BE enhanced drink is a complete and total nightmare. Do you realized to make 2 factory runs of brandy you will keep 5 food factories and 1 clothing factory running pretty much non stop for 7 days? All of these nested high volume subs is a total pain. Also look at this aswell, during 1 brandy run you will handled 320 crates of product to end up with 40 crates?
Sorry if I sound a bit upset, but I am not happy with the factory times nor the shear number of crates required to make a final product. It is out of control and I feel everything was much better before the patch as far as subs and factory runs go.
Now to the BE tissue topic
This is just my opinion on the way to give the chef back HIS/HER power.
3 BE tissues,, heavy, medium, light.no experimentation. Our components cantbe experimented on whyshould BE get to experiment on tissue??
Resources needed for these halved or quartered. Tissue require more resources thanmany final foods for crying out loud. Get rid of meat requirements all together for light tissue.(I know I am a dreamer)
BE tissue end up with an EXTREMELY low complexity to make factory runs of the tissue much faster atMOST 20 hours for 1 full run.
Chef takes the Tissue adds some flora and then has the option of experimenting on it however they feel fit, all 4 bars. This brings back the sub experimentation that we hadbefore the patch, and gives us our skill back.
Does this not sound like whatmost of us are wanting?
Denoby Master Chef
ArthurDentOnBria
Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:53 pm
#12
CJadefire wrote:
If a BE tissue doubled the colors tailors could imbue into clothing, there'd be riots. Why are we willing to put up with it in our profession?
What in the world are you talking about? For a tailor, a BE additive doesn't just double some effectiveness number, it adds the entire ability. The affect of this is far far far greater. A leather trim shirt without a BE tissue in it is just a mediocre looking shirt which we'd charge 2k-3k for.
Add a few tissues into it and it becomes an essential buy for a doctor, at 10x the price. A tailor trying to provide a "melee combat defense jacket" does not have the option of offering this product at half the effectiveness by bypassing the BE. The tailor *must* buy the tissue or not sell the product, it's as simple as that.
In fact, there is an entire class of player who would never in a million years spend any money on clothing that are now spending hundres of k on clothing with BE additives in them. Players who wear armor, players who do pvp, or just players who are entirely unconcerned with the appearance of their toon now have big big incentives to buy clothing. The impact that BE additives have on chef foods is truly tiny by comparison.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 02-24-2004 04:56 PM
Laeir
Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:53 pm
#13
Unless you are suggesting that the BE component becomes optional in the final additive, this doesn't really change anything. Food with the BE component-additive will still be twice as good as food without. All it does is make more work for the chef.
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