CUEmu - Thread Posts

sciguyCO

Fri Jun 18, 2004 12:21 am

Good question. So good I asked Keldarin at Fan Fest during the Jedi revamp panel. Of course, a lot of information coming out of TestCenter makes it look like the answer has changed in the past couple of weeks (or the slight chance that he was just wrong).

1) Answer I got at FF: Force experimentation will add experimentation points for all crafting types, allowing up to 14 points for Master crafters with +20 in tapes.

2) Latest details from TC: Skill description changed from "adds experimentation points" (which incidently never worked) to "improves chances of amazing success".

The "adds experimentation points" description was an exact copy of all the normal exp. skills, so there's the possibility that the details were copied over just as a placeholder. I think this should get an interesting response, and would be useful to a lot of people, especially since it's a little unclear which is wrong: Keldarin's FF answer or the new description.

Kriles Ch'artoff , Chilastra server
Master Chef (retired)
Currently doing....stuff

Numen

Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:54 am

#15

MilkToast wrote:

Yes, I understand the issues and I also understand that my opinion may put me in the minority, but I am not going to staymute like I did during the last crafting change fiasco. Many people where screaming nerf about changes that they didn't even understand. This led tothe rollback of changes thatmay actuallyhave been animprovement to the crafting system. That is, if you considered the ability to craft better items an improvement (which I do).

It was not really rolled back because players didn't want it. The devs posted a reason why this change was being implemented. They wanted to make it easier for new crafters to come into the game and not have the older ones keep having a virtual monopoly. Obviously that isn't completely the case, but it definatly is hard starting out in many professions.

The changes were removed I believe mainly because the change to the system would do exactly the opposite of what the devs wanted to accomplish. The change was an improvement for those that had very good resources, but was a nerf to those that didn't. New players aren't going to have 4 months of old resource spawns.

I also believe that its the devs intention not to create that large of a gap between someone starting out and a long time master. I know this was their position back during the crafting changes, and I kind of doubt this has changed. This is why I'm guessing +14 will not happen. I'm dissapointed by this only in the aspect of the force sensitive skills. Now I see almost no reason to get any of them. I realize the bonuses shouldn't be that great, but more amazings and better assembly I just don't consider that good. When I use up 100-200k resources in every batch of BE food spending a few k on getting a good schematic doesn't matter much. Although I do suspect the bonuses might mean more to other classes.

Amandil Morier - Tempest - Master Chef

MilkToast

Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:45 am

#16

Numen wrote:

MilkToast wrote:

Yes, I understand the issues and I also understand that my opinion may put me in the minority, but I am not going to staymute like I did during the last crafting change fiasco. Many people where screaming nerf about changes that they didn't even understand. This led tothe rollback of changes thatmay actuallyhave been animprovement to the crafting system. That is, if you considered the ability to craft better items an improvement (which I do).

It was not really rolled back because players didn't want it. The devs posted a reason why this change was being implemented. They wanted to make it easier for new crafters to come into the game and not have the older ones keep having a virtual monopoly. Obviously that isn't completely the case, but it definatly is hard starting out in many professions.

The changes were removed I believe mainly because the change to the system would do exactly the opposite of what the devs wanted to accomplish. The change was an improvement for those that had very good resources, but was a nerf to those that didn't. New players aren't going to have 4 months of old resource spawns.

I also believe that its the devs intention not to create that large of a gap between someone starting out and a long time master. I know this was their position back during the crafting changes, and I kind of doubt this has changed. This is why I'm guessing +14 will not happen. I'm dissapointed by this only in the aspect of the force sensitive skills. Now I see almost no reason to get any of them. I realize the bonuses shouldn't be that great, but more amazings and better assembly I just don't consider that good. When I use up 100-200k resources in every batch of BE food spending a few k on getting a good schematic doesn't matter much. Although I do suspect the bonuses might mean more to other classes.

Unfortunately, I don't think placing a ceiling on the number of skills points available to a player is the way to make sure there is a market for more (or newer) crafters. There are at least 4 things that control the goods a crafter can produce and sell; the number of skill points a player has versus the number of skill points required to makethe item, the quality and quantity of raw materials, the production capacity andthe sales channel. You can limit a persons ability to dominate a market by sufficiently restricting any of those 4 variables.

If I wanted to make sure there was a market for morecrafters I would make the following changes.

First, change crafting so that the number of skill points required to make an item scales with the complexitiy of the item. Therefore, almost any crafter could make a competitive level 1 item while master level items would benefit the most from having maximum skill points.

Second, reduce overall production capacity by removing the ability to do static lot swaps and making the number of lots available for mining and harvesting scale based on some skill, potentially surveying and/or merchant. You can't stop someone from having a fleet of 50 harvesters and 20 factories but you can make it harder.

Third, I would reject all requests to increase the size of crates, speed of factories or any other change that would allow a crafter to produce more items in less time since this would just make it easier for fewer people to satisfy a market.

What I wouldn't do is continue to perpetuate a system that allows for almost no character development (let's face it you can master almost any professions in less than a week). The only exception to this seems to be Jedi which will have a fairly advanced character skill tree that will take a substantial amount of time to master. This is fine for anyone who wants to be a combat character but leaves crafters and others out in the cold unless you make some of the forces skills meaningful (i.e. of significant value) to the other professions. Increasing the maximum experimentation pointsto +14 is of significant value, more amazing successes is not.

Message Edited by MilkToast on 06-18-2004 08:47 AM

Thoth Master Doctor, Master Chef
Isis Master Rifleman, Master Bio-Engineer
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Meplorium

Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:00 am

#17

sciguyCO wrote:

Put back the +2 FS experimentation points, allow them to stack with tapes, leading to a few 14 point crafters and probably an increase in 12 point crafters - This one is my personal favorite. The percentile difference between 12 points and 14 points is less than 10 points and 12 points. Also that is just 4 FS skills, not a full jedi, so it shouldn't be that difficult to do.

Put back the +2 FS experimentation points, but don't allow them to stack with tapes. This keeps the max at 12 points, but gives crafters an additional path to get the extra 2 (leading to more 12 point crafters). - This kills the skill tape market for those that work to loot those. Also for those with the skill tapes it is a real turn off for the jedi content, yet if you are doing more than one crafting profession it is really powerful since it works for both. I feel this gets a bit muddy.

Leave FS experimentation at "improves chances for amazing success" and also add back the "amazing success bumps percentage maximum" feature we had on that one-day revamp. - Yeah, this is better than 16 points and really over powered. Still cool, but those with the jedi powers/skill tapeswill dominate. They don't even need the best resources to beat out the competition. May also be distrubive to the combat balance.

Leave FS experimentation at "improves chances for amazing success", leave percentage maximums capped solely by resource quality. - 12 points of amazing successes is almost as good as 14 points of great successes. Those with skill tapes and jedi powers will be far ahead of those with just 10 points or even 10 points and jedi powers. This is a bit more leveled than the 14 points though as one can just take 20 attempts at getting a schematic that is similar to those without jedi powers.

BTW, even though it really isn't chef based, I am hologrinding my butt off hoping to get lucky right now, so this is important to me at least. However it turns out in the end, it should be very interesting. Unless it turns out to be abetter chance at amazing successesand works like port where you are not sure if it does anything for you at all. In that case it will get a 'who cares' response which is something that should be avoided.

- Meparch (Master Crafter, AS, DE), Mepaarch (MiniMep, Chef, SW), Meparca (Master Wookiee), Mepthorian (Master Naturalist, CH, BE)
Drop Off Vendor: Buffy in the Bacta Tank, Crystal Hollow, Dantooine. -6931 4819
Visit the commerce district, Crystal Hollow, Dantooine.
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ewokkillah

Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:32 am

#18

I think the devs said that they balanced our foods in the chef revamp with the combat rebalance in mind. I'm not sure how that is possible when they don't even know how the combat rebalance will turn out. So I want to know if they are going to look at food again in the combat rebalance. If so, are they going to look at all the foods or only the foods that buff the stats?

Michi Mi'i
Stalker of Hypocrites (retired)

Eikmms

Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:19 pm

#19

CoolDog wrote:

dunno if someone asked here or not but what about fixing the barrels?

Message Edited by CoolDog on 06-17-2004 08:43 PM

At Fan Fest they stated that barrels are not a game breaking issue. They are on the list, the bottom of the list, but they are on it.....

&& Eikmms Laggerr &&
- I miss the old combat system.
New Rifleman motto "Run it's a picket!"
I support the stocking of pink armor.

Meplorium

Fri Jun 18, 2004 7:34 pm

#20

I was looking through the FS skill trees for crafter, one was assembly the other was for crit failure. Now I thought assembly helped in crit fails. If it doesn't, what does it do? If it does, then why the redundance?

- Meparch (Master Crafter, AS, DE), Mepaarch (MiniMep, Chef, SW), Meparca (Master Wookiee), Mepthorian (Master Naturalist, CH, BE)
Drop Off Vendor: Buffy in the Bacta Tank, Crystal Hollow, Dantooine. -6931 4819
Visit the commerce district, Crystal Hollow, Dantooine.
The Armored Wookiee - Kashyyykian Armor Specialist
The Bacta Tank - Food, Drink and Stims
Grimy Shack - Tools, Vehicles and Ships
Special Orders Welcome, Send Mail.

Cafa

Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:21 am

#21

sciguyCO wrote:

[snip]

That's not to say that there aren't options.

Put back the +2 FS experimentation points, allow them to stack with tapes, leading to a few 14 point crafters and probably an increase in 12 point crafters.

Put back the +2 FS experimentation points, but don't allow them to stack with tapes. This keeps the max at 12 points, but gives crafters an additional path to get the extra 2 (leading to more 12 point crafters).

Leave FS experimentation at "improves chances for amazing success" and also add back the "amazing success bumps percentage maximum" feature we had on that one-day revamp.

Leave FS experimentation at "improves chances for amazing success", leave percentage maximums capped solely by resource quality.

#1 is what was told to us at Fan Fest. #4 appears to be where we're at now. Although I suppose it's possible the "amazing bump" is in the Pub9 code, I haven't actually checked (been too busy playing with my glowstick ). Keldarin and GreenMarine passed on some "secret" info about amazings increasing maxes in a crafting panel, but that does not show up when testing on Live. They could've forgotten that it was taken out with the crafting revamp, forgotten that it wasn't in Live yet (assuming it's in pub9) or just been hungover from partying with the correspondants the night before.

The problem with #4 is that there is zero trust in a system that a player cannot see a direct reflection of results. Getting past the general lack of trust for dev promises in this game, making me average 1,000 tries and figuring out if the bell curve is a little more skewed towards me is a poor solution. FEEDBACK is +2 experimentation points, FEEDBACK is no resource cap. Most people I know don't want to work to gain something that provides zero real-time visible feedback to them.

Fivo Asia

- Strength In Numbers - Loyal Subjects of the Empire
Asia Brothers Industries - Asia Hall SiN CiTY, Dantooine (Offers Vendor at -4703 -1404)
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only difference between a pet and the person, is you pay the person to stand there
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Groid

Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:53 am

#22

question:

With the new force sensitive points, will we get additional skillpoints to use, or must we give up existing points to get these force points?

Personally, I am out of points with master chef, master merchant and master artisan, enjoy what my current template is, and most likely will never get any force points unless they come from NON-COMBAT quests.

Mokianna, Bria Server

Meplorium

Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:23 am

#23

each force sensetive skill is 1 point. So if you just wanted the exp line, it would be 4 points. No idea about the quest system, they haven't done it yet. I am guessing there will be crafting quests.

- Meparch (Master Crafter, AS, DE), Mepaarch (MiniMep, Chef, SW), Meparca (Master Wookiee), Mepthorian (Master Naturalist, CH, BE)
Drop Off Vendor: Buffy in the Bacta Tank, Crystal Hollow, Dantooine. -6931 4819
Visit the commerce district, Crystal Hollow, Dantooine.
The Armored Wookiee - Kashyyykian Armor Specialist
The Bacta Tank - Food, Drink and Stims
Grimy Shack - Tools, Vehicles and Ships
Special Orders Welcome, Send Mail.

Elmmx-5

Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:08 pm

#24

I really like the question about buffs being rebalanced and the dev's statements earlier about our food being made with the balance in mind. I also think that some crafting profession should ask for clarification on how force experimentation will affect us. These are both questions I'd really like to know the answer to, but since we can only ask one, I think we should ask about force experimentation since it's a more immediate concern.

_________________________________
Akiko' Saito
+25 Master Chef (14pt artisan, force experimentation)
Shop at -6009 -447 Corell Peaks, Corellia

Dsabre

Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:31 pm

#25

as a semi-related question...perhaps on the side sciguyCo could ask if theres any new chef schematics going in...we didn't get advance warning for mando wine...so maybe theres something in publish9 and once again we're not getting any info on it.

sciguyCO

Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:04 pm

#26

Ok, I'm not sure when TH is going to be accepting next week's question, so lets try to pick one:

1) Force sensitive skills. Pub9 is coming quick, I'm not sure whether whatever functionality will get changed, but we can see what it's supposed to do, and maybe get a feel for the possibility of a hotfix tweak. I'll work to get Assembly, experimentation, and "Technique" explained (along with the 4th crafting branch, which I always forget).

2) Food changes in combat balance. Probably a low chance of this happening, since GreenMarine apparently took the combat balance design (that they had at the time) into account when he set up the buff ranges. But with all the CB changes we've been hearing about, maybe these will get looked at again.

3) Bug fixes (barrels and stomach digestion). I do bring these up to the devs, especially with minipublishes that include "correspondant issues" as a feature, but we can bump the visibility on these.

4) New schematics

The FS question seemed popular, but put in your support for whatever you'd like. Bug fixes and new schematics are likely to get "coming in the future, not details yet" answers, though.

Kriles Ch'artoff , Chilastra server
Master Chef (retired)
Currently doing....stuff

Chef Archive

Thread: That reminds me: we're asking TH a question next week...