Chef Archive
Thread: Would this chef/BE arrangement be fair?
colicoid
Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:14 am
#14
Oh and if your food is going to be useful you NEED a MBE.
/Master bio engineer
LovePudding2
Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:33 am
#15
Master Bio-Engineer / Novice Chef
As a MBE, I make more money dealing with Tailors. One clothing tissue, which is less meat resources than some medium food additives, costs tailors 3K. One create of (some tissue) cost 75K per crate. Most chefs are not willing to pay that much for a crate for medium additives. So... I simply sell to the highest bidder. I kinda felt as if I was being short-changed by many chefs, so I decided to join the chef ranks. Just selling novice chef food with BE additives, I am making much morecredits than I would have if just sold BE foodadditives.
SirMixMaster
Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:20 am
#16
Nikii_Nightstrider wrote:
BE makes 1 factory run.
Chef makes1 factory run to turn those supplements into chef supplements.
Chef makes 1 factory run glasses.
Chef makes 1 factory run alcohol.
Chef makes 49 brandys assuming the schematic went perfect.
Chef gives 25 brandys to BE. Chef keeps 24 brandys.
*scratches head*
Then Chef makes another run of Brandys with the BE component and sells them for 3-4x as much as regular and is quite pleased with self.
DashZero
Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:38 am
#17
SirMixMaster wrote:
Nikii_Nightstrider wrote:
BE makes 1 factory run.
Chef makes1 factory run to turn those supplements into chef supplements.
Chef makes 1 factory run glasses.
Chef makes 1 factory run alcohol.
Chef makes 49 brandys assuming the schematic went perfect.
Chef gives 25 brandys to BE. Chef keeps 24 brandys.
*scratches head*
Then Chef makes another run of Brandys with the BE component and sells them for 3-4x as much as regular and is quite pleased with self.
Need some math help hon. The chef doesnt even get a full crate out of it...see that part that says the chef gives 25 brandy to the BE and the Chef keeps 24. The chef will keep even less if he didnt get a great schematic on the first try. The chefs does 4 times the work and keeps less than the BE. Woohooo! that excites me!
Oh and to the BE that says...well if you dont have a BE your food is useless....that is kinda the whole gripe in a nutshell. Chefs are nothing but a BE food salesman. You have more control over our food than we do. And frankly we have a lot more work involved in it than you do. Buying meat is not work. Buying meat is costly, but its notnecessarily work.Chefs have a lot of things we have to do with your "work" before it becomes a usable product.Not to mention DOH its our profession to make food you are supposed to make supplements to ENHANCE food, not make make food to sell to the chef who in turn does 5 million steps with it and then sells it to the general populace only because you allowed him the honor of being able to make food.
Scorus
Sat Feb 14, 2004 11:00 am
#18
Yes, chef stuff will be very valuable and therefore you would be trading something valuable to the BE. But they are ONLY very valuable if you have what you are trading the stuff for, the BE additives. If you honestly think you will be able to charge an arm and a leg for your food and drink and buy the BE additives that are absolutely required for a song, then you only attended half that economics course.
One person suggested that they would trade 1 crate of enhanced Brandy for 4 crates of medium BE additives. That will only require me to put together 4000+ of the same kind of good OQ+PE+FL meat (and 12K+ other organics, which is nowhere near as difficult). Do you have any idea how much time that takes? Sure, if Rancors happen to be dropping good meat, that is a different matter. But if not, then you of all people know how hard it is to get massive amounts of meat together.
I'm afraid you are giving no incentive for the BE to go to this trouble. I can use that time to put together crates of pet stims and regular stims that require no meat whatsoever. Or I can use those same resources to make tailor products that sell for a whole, whole lot more than you are offering.
I am not in the slightest saying the current system is fair, but under this system BEs have quite a number of marketable products (meds, tailor products, pets) and chefs only have marketable products if they have BE components. If you are not prepared to work with the BE such that there is an incentive for him to work with you, then you cannot expect to have a supply of those products. That is why I tried to come up with a good swap system, because I know there is no way you are going to be able to pay for our time what we can get from meds, creatures and tailor products.
One person suggested that they would trade 1 crate of enhanced Brandy for 4 crates of medium BE additives. That will only require me to put together 4000+ of the same kind of good OQ+PE+FL meat (and 12K+ other organics, which is nowhere near as difficult). Do you have any idea how much time that takes? Sure, if Rancors happen to be dropping good meat, that is a different matter. But if not, then you of all people know how hard it is to get massive amounts of meat together.
I'm afraid you are giving no incentive for the BE to go to this trouble. I can use that time to put together crates of pet stims and regular stims that require no meat whatsoever. Or I can use those same resources to make tailor products that sell for a whole, whole lot more than you are offering.
I am not in the slightest saying the current system is fair, but under this system BEs have quite a number of marketable products (meds, tailor products, pets) and chefs only have marketable products if they have BE components. If you are not prepared to work with the BE such that there is an incentive for him to work with you, then you cannot expect to have a supply of those products. That is why I tried to come up with a good swap system, because I know there is no way you are going to be able to pay for our time what we can get from meds, creatures and tailor products.
Gotik-CH
Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:26 pm
#19
ArmaniWeapons wrote:
I think what will happen is that at first the BE's will make the schematics for people. But when they see the millions the chefs will reap off there classes skills that will change. Same thing has happened on Corbantis with Armor and slicers that resell.
Armor prices have steadily gone up to the point where the smugglers profit is geting smaller each week. Top quality suits are going in the range of 600k to 1mil now or between 100cpu and 250cpu if you like to keep track that way.
The reasoning is once a class feels that they are not getting enough of the profit from there class they will either quit or start charging more. If you are not treating a partnerfairly they will remember that alot longer than the 50k you tipped them. Think what you would say if somebody brought you 100k wheat and 100k water and asked you to make them a schematic for some food for 50k.
From what I can see it takesas muchskill and time to make the BE componentsas the actual foods. If you can find master BE's to make your additives for you then great. But if you are smart you will look to the future . BE is one of the least played classes behind only Droid Engineer. If you go to the BE forum you can see they are quitting in droves. You are better off bringing them in as a full partner than treating them as hired help. There will be plenty of credits to go around for everyone anyway. Kick them down a couple crates of food at the least!
I guess it all comes down to what you expect to do as a Chef. Are you trying to make 999mil? Become the highest volume chef on the server? Provide only top shelf quality foods? Run a successful vendor, or just provide yourself and friends with good foods. If you are in this to make credits, always remember who's help you will need to get to the top.
Armani -- Corbantis
Master Armorsmith -- Master Weaponsmith -- Master Artisan
First off.. great post! I think now and in the future.. any Chef can approach a MBE and offer up 400k to make 8 schematics with these here resources. I don't think anyone could turn down a request like that. Even offering up some free crates too would help keep the relationship strong.
If someone came up to me and asked to make 8 schematics for 400k and not have to go thru the resource collection, factory process, stocking of vendors and 100's of customers questions.. wouldn't thatbe the perfect profession? 
I guess it depends on ones personality. I certainly wouldn't mind it.
Gotik
apulieus
Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:10 pm
#20
Not to trivilize BE components, but chefs have been running factory components with meat, hide since before this patch and some of the foods use large amounts just like the additives.
The most common BE component the nutrient line takes any generic creature food. So for brandy you guys are doing broad-spectrum nutrients. 35 organic 25 floral food and 20 creature food. so lets be generous 10 cpu average for yourresources. Your costs excluding factory time 800 credits per additive. This comes out to 20k a crate. Lets say you value your time equal to resources so add another 20k to the crate cost. We are looking at 40k a crate. Tack on another 5k for factory costs. So as i see it a fair price for a crate of broad spectrum is 45k a crate.
Chef makes the brandy need 10 units of water to make the supplement, 2 alcohol (20 resources) 20 berries 20 fruit and i container ( 150 gemstone and 2 trim). So far 220 units which using the same rate is 2200 credits + trim cost ( I pay 5k a crate for trim)
220X 10=2.2k resource cost give myself 2.2k same value or 4.4k X25=110k.
So my sale price is my costs 110k + BE cost 45k + trim cost 10k +5k for factory costs
So grand total 170k to the consumer.
Shadowmant
Sat Feb 14, 2004 9:06 pm
#21
Keep in mind guys that BE's are fairly rare and the majority of them out there are in it for the pets and just snicker when someone messages them for tissues. I'm a master BE myself but I chose to specialize in tissues from the get go. I've spent most of my time on tailor tissues but can say I'm happy to finnaly have a product that chefs accually want now.
As for the arangment mentioned I have that exact same 2:1 arrangement with a chef right now. I give him 20 crates of medium tissues and he gives me 10 crates of engineered food (1 crate is ussually a few short from his experimentation) I allow him access to 1 of my factorys for these trades as part of our deal.
Let me say that it has turned out to be amazingly profitable for the both of us! If your a chef and turn down a deal like this your only hurting yourself, because I garentee you that the Bio-Engineer *WILL* find another chef smart enough to be willing to do it.
As for the arangment mentioned I have that exact same 2:1 arrangement with a chef right now. I give him 20 crates of medium tissues and he gives me 10 crates of engineered food (1 crate is ussually a few short from his experimentation) I allow him access to 1 of my factorys for these trades as part of our deal.
Let me say that it has turned out to be amazingly profitable for the both of us! If your a chef and turn down a deal like this your only hurting yourself, because I garentee you that the Bio-Engineer *WILL* find another chef smart enough to be willing to do it.
apulieus
Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:25 am
#22
Shadowmant,
I'm glad that it works for you. But your system has no basis in time or resources spent your basically charging as much you can.
Some chefs will price that way to make as much short term cash as possible, similarly some BE's will do that.
Sure you will do business in the short run. In the long run chefs will simply pick up BE or other people will pick it up to make money and prices will go down.
I personally won't gouge people in the short run because as production gears up prices will normalize and come to some sane level. My customers are the same one's I've had prepatch mostly.
Just as I won't make food for free as people who sell themselves resources at cost .5 cpu prices. I won't make them at outrageous rates so a BE can make a quick buck.
Having said that if your a BE and you are going to be a regular supplier to a chef do check his prices if he's going to be charging 500k a crate for brandy casks then feel free to charge him whatever he will pay.
DashZero
Sun Feb 15, 2004 9:43 am
#23
I figured it up last night...its something like 5900 resources from the chef per crate and 2000 resources from the BE. Its 1 factory run from the BE and 4 factory runs from the chef. So the chef is putting in 3 times the resources and doing 4 times the factory runs...and splitting 50/50 with the BE the end result. Im not seeing it. My BE tried to tell me to pay him half my profit last night. Sorry its not happening. Ill stick to buying meat at 10cpu and Ill do the BE stuff myself. Im not going to work 4 times as hard as you and put 3 times more stuff into it than you so I can make the same out of it as you. Its absurd. You can call me a dumb chef if you want, but Im not a BE lackey. My work SHOULD be just as valuable as yours.And the fact that Im doing 4 times the work you are should account for something.
MikaelGueck
Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:02 am
#24
I think it's totally fine that BEs are charging as much as they can. I'm the follower of the same principle, so it would be rather hypocritical of me to deny others the same right.
I also believe that as long as there is a MBE out there who will make schematics for us, some of us will buy them. It think it very unlikely that we would, on Tempest, arrive to a situation in which we wouldn't have a number of MBEs willing to trade in schematics.
I'm all for sharing profits. I buy a lot of raw materials. I buy hundreds of ks of meat. I will also buy right-priced crates of BE additives, while saying no to deals which I do not consider to add to the fun of the game.
I also believe that as long as there is a MBE out there who will make schematics for us, some of us will buy them. It think it very unlikely that we would, on Tempest, arrive to a situation in which we wouldn't have a number of MBEs willing to trade in schematics.
I'm all for sharing profits. I buy a lot of raw materials. I buy hundreds of ks of meat. I will also buy right-priced crates of BE additives, while saying no to deals which I do not consider to add to the fun of the game.
Shadowmant
Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:38 am
#25
How am I gouging?
Go by price on the market. I charge about 40k for the tissues and he was charging about 40k for the non-enhanced food. With this trade we come out pretty even.
I figure your next arguement will be about the "factory runs" If you take a look at the post again, I gave him acess to one of my factorys so there is no downtime for him at all, just simply the cost of the food.
With this deal, I get a steady influx of cheap high quality food. And he gets garenteed tissues whenever he needs them for just the price of the resources for his food. (with no down time at all) My guess is that he spends no more than 15k per crate so hell, it's not bad for either of us. His prices jump from 40k to 200k and all he needs to do is purchase about 15k resources for it. No need to use a slot for a factory, no need to search out a BE willing to make a large amount of tissues, no need to pay any maintanance costs or travel expenses.
He wins and I win, so we're both happy. I'm not sure exactly what you see wrong with this deal?
Go by price on the market. I charge about 40k for the tissues and he was charging about 40k for the non-enhanced food. With this trade we come out pretty even.
I figure your next arguement will be about the "factory runs" If you take a look at the post again, I gave him acess to one of my factorys so there is no downtime for him at all, just simply the cost of the food.
With this deal, I get a steady influx of cheap high quality food. And he gets garenteed tissues whenever he needs them for just the price of the resources for his food. (with no down time at all) My guess is that he spends no more than 15k per crate so hell, it's not bad for either of us. His prices jump from 40k to 200k and all he needs to do is purchase about 15k resources for it. No need to use a slot for a factory, no need to search out a BE willing to make a large amount of tissues, no need to pay any maintanance costs or travel expenses.
He wins and I win, so we're both happy. I'm not sure exactly what you see wrong with this deal?
DashZero
Sun Feb 15, 2004 11:03 am
#26
So what exactly do you plan to do with 10 crates of brandy a day?
The thing Im not getting here is why BEs seem to only want to strike deals for food or portions of the profit. How come they arent selling product like everyone else? How much food would I sell instead of selling I approached people and said, Ill give you this food if you give me half of everything you make while you use it? You know...what about the tailor and artisans (once kegs are fixed)that we buy stuff from for the runs? Should they be demanding half of the profit too? Hrmm letsee...half the profit to the tailor...half the profit to the BE...yay team! go chef! If it makes your chef happy great. Tho I have to wonder how hes gonna feel when he realizes that you really arent using 10 crates a day of brandy yourself and that you are really competing against him for sales...or giving it to his customers. This whole BEs have the end all be all of food making is a bogus lump of crap. Im the chef not my BE. Of course, I guess your deal is fairer than the one I was offered...sort of. I was offered for 40% of my profit I could supply all the flora and the factory and factory maintence/power for supplements. So basically...half of my earnings for 500 units of meat and a schem since hes not even making it. While it will probably go up in the future thanks to this wonderous revamp...500 units of meat on my server goes for 2500-5000credits depending on quality (excluding avian).
So in essence, Im basically paying 40% of my earnings for 5k worth of resource and a schematic. Im sorry but I just dont think its right.
Message Edited by Nikii_Nightstrider on 02-15-2004 01:11 PM