Carbineer Archive
Thread: Our Question
TAfirehawk
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:34 pm
#40
Rorenikibi wrote:
Its not really CMs, I know several I have a lot of respect for.
Its when you find someone who's gone Rifleman/CM and you're likely looking down the barrel of a template kiddie who just wants to pwn j00.
Every CM knows exactly what he is doing throwing a Poison or Disease for 500+ per tick when compared to the other professions' PvP damage output......
I am not going to point the finger at any individual.....it is the sad state of the PvP game when no group under 5 can hurt me unless they have a CM with them.....it's not the CM's fault I know.....but don't justify this horribly out of balance condition as being JUST FINE.
novamarine
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:36 pm
#41
jfang wrote:
"This community really wants balance." I keep picturing a carbineer council trying to bring balance to the game... Does this mean that Novamarine is the equivalent of Anakin, and we should be wary of him falling pray to the dreaded Riflemen side?
You have no freakin' idea how funny that is to me. I have joined a very PvP oriented group and I am feeling the pressures to switch to something more potent. I was thinking about going Carbineer/Rifleman but then I would have to drop Doctor which I enjoy. That leaves Rifleman/Doctor or Combat Medic/Doctor as my best choices.I was already a CM and have sold off all my CM resources (I am not going through that tortue of collecting them again). This leaves Rifleman/Doctor as my logical choice...
It is like the Emperor himself is whispering in my ears...
If I do fall, will one of you come push me into some lava? 
jfang
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:39 pm
#42
PadreBook wrote:
My feeling on CM/Rifleman is that just illustrates how borked and capricious the profession design was and is. I mean why does Rifleman have +90 speed when Carbineer have +60 (or Pistol at +74)? That makes no sense from a game design perspective.
Padre
From a game design perspective it makes perfect sense. All weapon types should get about 90 speed, that's balanced. Oh, wait, we need to give bounty hunters some incentive... Well, let's just allocate some points away from pistoleer and carbineer...
From a game implementation perspective though, it was an oversight and is rather... unbalanced... 
novamarine
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:46 pm
#43
Wow the twists of this thread.
Is it really CM or is it the wierd HAM pools with mind being so weak?
If CMs could only attack health or action would they be the threat they are now?
Rorenikibi
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:56 pm
#44
novamarine wrote:
Wow the twists of this thread.
Is it really CM or is it the wierd HAM pools with mind being so weak?
If CMs could only attack health or action would they be the threat they are now?
No, not really. They'd be nasty, because there's no 75% reduction on the DOT, but they'd be a manageable threat with Doctor or even just Medic in your template.
That's why Riflemen/CMs are so gamebreakingly lethal. They shred your Mind in more ways than one and there's really not a helluva lot you can do. Brandy only delays the inevitable and Blue Milk barely keeps up while you have stomach capacity. Muon gold now only buys you a few seconds until its benefits are gone.
jfang
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:05 pm
#45
TAfirehawk wrote:
Every CM knows exactly what he is doing throwing a Poison or Disease for 500+ per tick when compared to the other professions' PvP damage output......
I am not going to point the finger at any individual.....it is the sad state of the PvP game when no group under 5 can hurt me unless they have a CM with them.....it's not the CM's fault I know.....but don't justify this horribly out of balance condition as being JUST FINE.
If you have a specific accusation against combat medics, I believe I could adequately defend against it. Beyond that though, you will find few combat medics who disagree that the combat system is messed up, and very few think it is "JUST FINE". A few exist, but the majority is as frustrated you all are. However, I would argue that it is not poisons and diseases which are unbalanced, even the spider venom ones (post nerf mind you). It is the interplay between armor, buffs, skills, and poisons which creates an assymetrical situation.
Case in point, Get a group of 20 people to do a large scale 10 v 10 combat. However, only use factional armor (or crafted equivalents thereof) whichpresumably is how devs envisioned armor being about, and no buffs beyond Buff B packs (I'm guessing that's how devs envisioned buffs being, you might want to get some ID's to remap skill points). Assuming you are fighting welland not trying to stiltthe test(such as having all of one side bunch together), if you add a combat medic or two into the mix, the combat medic, even using exceptionally strong poisons, won't have that much of on impact on the battle. People just die too fast normally fora poison to really affect that much. Yes they will have an effect, but they are not the end all and be all.
It is just that combat medics are effective in causing the "first death" (the one that eliminates all your buffs and factional declaration) that people dislike them so much. The only times my poisons and diseases have been that effective is where there are two 'l33t d00ds' declared and buffed to 3000 HAM picking on unbuffed players. (And even then more than half the time it doesn't matter because they are Teras Kasi or doctors.) Beyond that, such as in non-uber combat,combat medicsare not excessivelymore effective than other classes (and some would argue weaker, although I really don't want to open thatcan of worms).
Of course the counter argumentis "it doesn't matter if the cause is the poisons or buffs or what not, the system needs to be changed", which of course it does. The difference is do you want to change poisons and diseases, the symptoms and have the next *big problem* show up, or do you want to fixthe cause (buffs, armor, spamming specials, etc). You said "no group under 5 can hurt me unless they have a CM with them". Is that bad because combat medics can hurt you, or is that bad because nobody else can?
As mentioned in another post, it is more or less a moot point until the combat revamp, which everybody, including combat medics, are waiting for with baited breath. You would be genuinely surprised how many of us want mind to be healable, bugs (like range) to be fixed, and better poison counter measures to exist.
Whew, well, back to talking about carbineers as compared to pistoleers. I wonder if I could find some interesting posts on the rifleman forum to add to this mix... 
Edit: Well the past 6 posts are about combat medics. Maybe not back to pistoleers...
Message Edited by jfang on 06-17-2004 05:10 PM
PadreBook
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:11 pm
#46
Rorenikibi wrote:In a thread on the Kettemoor boards attempting once more to crucify CMs on a burning altar, I pointed out there are several crafting issues that are causing major game imbalances, and its not just Combat Medics at the heart of it.1) Doctor buffs.2) 80-90% composite armor3) Combat Medic poisons/diseases.#1 makes #2 even usable, resulting in the damage type chokepoint that made kings of Stun damage dealers, and #3 that just rips the whole fabric to shreds.The problems lie in the fact that all three of these things can be crafted at the level of power they are as opposed to just being used.
This is a PvP statement only. As how effective would PvE without these things? Dead on futile. What PvP needs is things to be balanced against each other not to nerf the heck out of stuff that is critical for PvE. Change DoT's to have 75% damage reduction like all other PvP damage types. Then we can really see what other imbalances exist. Such as Dizzy/KD equals death and Melee professions are better at all types of combat than all Ranged combat professions.
Padre
Message Edited by PadreBook on 06-17-2004 02:13 PM
Rorenikibi
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:14 pm
#47
PadreBook wrote:
Rorenikibi wrote:
In a thread on the Kettemoor boards attempting once more to crucify CMs on a burning altar, I pointed out there are several crafting issues that are causing major game imbalances, and its not just Combat Medics at the heart of it.
1) Doctor buffs.
2) 80-90% composite armor
3) Combat Medic poisons/diseases.
#1 makes #2 even usable, resulting in the damage type chokepoint that made kings of Stun damage dealers, and #3 that just rips the whole fabric to shreds.
The problems lie in the fact that all three of these things can be crafted at the level of power they are as opposed to just being used.
This is a PvP statement only. As how effective would PvE without these things? Dead on futile. What PvP needs is things to be balanced against each other not to nerf the heck out of stuff that is critical for PvE. Change DoT's to have 75% damage reduction like all of damage types. Then we can really see what other imbalances exist. Such as Dizzy/KD equal death and Melee professions are better at all types of combat than all Ranged combat professions.
Padre
High end PvE with the unholy resists exists as a knee jerk reaction by the Devs to people using those three elements of player enhancement.
If the combat revamp brings those numbers down to somewhere near reasonable it logically follows that high end PvE contentwould have to be revised as well.
OR people would have to get over themselves and start grouping again.
More than likely, it will be a bit of both.
jfang
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:18 pm
#48
Rorenikibi wrote:
No, not really. They'd be nasty, because there's no 75% reduction on the DOT, but they'd be a manageable threat with Doctor or even just Medic in your template..
And while some would say "manageable threat", others would argue "eliminate almost allCombat Medicusefulness". How much does it really slow you down to use a stim B every 20 seconds? There is also the argument "should a novice profession effectively counter an elite profession?" I am not saying I agree or disagree with these statements, but just something to keep in mind...
Which brings up another point. Do you want "even just Medic in your template" to be enough? We have talked about one person not being able to do everything being good for the game. However, currently, a single carbineer with 15 SP in novice medic can use a 400+ stim B on himself or herself and effectively eliminate the need for a medic in 90% of circumstances. Is that good and healthy for the multi-player aspect of the game?
I personally am a fan of the "you incur a 1/2 or 1/4 penality when trying to heal yourself because it's hard to heal yourself when you are wounded" or a varient of "non-CM's aren't trained for healing in combat, and thus incur a penality when healing people when engaged in battle"...
PadreBook
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:20 pm
#49
Remember that survey that said that a vast majority of the player base prefers to do solo PvE?
I remember the first few months of the game without most of those things and you know what they sucked. Having to spend an additional 1-2 hours just to find and join a group, hoping that's they are remotely competent, and still having everyone die periodically. And that was just to do things on the starter planets with the occasional foray into an advanced planet. I'm sorry if you only want to do PvP or are in that minority that prefer to do group PvE but the fact is that having things kill you with one shot when you are in a 20 person group and are wearing armor is NOT fun, and will NEVER be fun.
As for the 'knee-jerk' reaction, well they are bad programmers and game designers pure and simple. This limited level of communication alone is testiment to that.
Padre
I remember the first few months of the game without most of those things and you know what they sucked. Having to spend an additional 1-2 hours just to find and join a group, hoping that's they are remotely competent, and still having everyone die periodically. And that was just to do things on the starter planets with the occasional foray into an advanced planet. I'm sorry if you only want to do PvP or are in that minority that prefer to do group PvE but the fact is that having things kill you with one shot when you are in a 20 person group and are wearing armor is NOT fun, and will NEVER be fun.
As for the 'knee-jerk' reaction, well they are bad programmers and game designers pure and simple. This limited level of communication alone is testiment to that.
Padre
jfang
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:23 pm
#50
Rorenikibi wrote:
High end PvE with the unholy resists exists as a knee jerk reaction by the Devs to people using those three elements of player enhancement.
If the combat revamp brings those numbers down to somewhere near reasonable it logically follows that high end PvE contentwould have to be revised as well.
OR people would have to get over themselves and start grouping again.
More than likely, it will be a bit of both.
What Rorenikibi said.
Actually, I would prefer it if enemies started having regeneration abilities. Imagine aSBD with 10k, but with a constitution of 10,000. That would be much scarier than a 100k HAM enemy in my opinion. And if a krayt had 100k and 10,000 of each secondary, I doubt anybody could solo them (except for a combat medic who has an 30 minutes to spare for a secondary disease to eliminate regeneration of them).
I think that would be more realistic and more balanced than the current framework of "take a shot, run away, come back, take a shot...". Not to mention it would encourage more team play, as you would literally need enough people to fight through the regenerative aspects of the enemy, rather than more people simply making the kill come faster.
Rorenikibi
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:23 pm
#51
jfang wrote:
Rorenikibi wrote:
No, not really. They'd be nasty, because there's no 75% reduction on the DOT, but they'd be a manageable threat with Doctor or even just Medic in your template..
And while some would say "manageable threat", others would argue "eliminate almost allCombat Medicusefulness". How much does it really slow you down to use a stim B every 20 seconds? There is also the argument "should a novice profession effectively counter an elite profession?" I am not saying I agree or disagree with these statements, but just something to keep in mind...
Which brings up another point. Do you want "even just Medic in your template" to be enough? We have talked about one person not being able to do everything being good for the game. However, currently, a single carbineer with 15 SP in novice medic can use a 400+ stim B on himself or herself and effectively eliminate the need for a medic in 90% of circumstances. Is that good and healthy for the multi-player aspect of the game?
I personally am a fan of the "you incur a 1/2 or 1/4 penality when trying to heal yourself because it's hard to heal yourself when you are wounded" or a varient of "non-CM's aren't trained for healing in combat, and thus incur a penality when healing people when engaged in battle"...
Oh, don't get me wrong, ticking 700 points of damage every 8 seconds is in no way mitigated by a Novice Medic using a stim B for 250-600 points of healing.
Even a Master Medic ona Stim D is going to have a few bad rolls and keep in mind, mitigating the poison means anything else that hits you is going to stack up fast.
Like I said, still a big threat, but not an unmanageable threat.
jfang
Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:26 pm
#52
PadreBook wrote:
Remember that survey that said that a vast majority of the player base prefers to do solo PvE?
I remember the first few months of the game without most of those things and you know what they sucked. Having to spend an additional 1-2 hours just to find and join a group, hoping that's they are remotely competent, and still having everyone die periodically. And that was just to do things on the starter planets with the occasional foray into an advanced planet. I'm sorry if you only want to do PvP or are in that minority that prefer to do group PvE but the fact is that having things kill you with one shot when you are in a 20 person group and are wearing armor is NOT fun, and will NEVER be fun.
As for the 'knee-jerk' reaction, well they are bad programmers and game designers pure and simple. This limited level of communication alone is testiment to that.
Padre
Not really, Padre. I would imagine that they gave enemies huge attack and HAMs simply because of system limitations. The alternative would be to build a better AI (the holy grail of computer science), and give enemies attributes closer to PC's (such as regeneration and speed skill, which is hugely memory and CPU intensive). Beyond doing the "impossible" of what is mentioned above, what else could they do to make enemies harder beyond what they did do?