Carbineer Archive

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Warmaker01 wrote:
Sounds to me you're complaint is a lack of range.

Take up Carbineer or Rifleman then.

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Nice attitude, moron... The idea is to have a viable profession, not a bunch of jackasses sniffing up the Flavor of the Month.

You want range and hitting power. What does that sound like? A pistol or a rifle?

Some of the pistol requests want pistols to shoot out to SWG Rifle ranges. It's like asking to have a .45 Cal Pistol shoot as far as a G3 Rifle or .50 Cal Rifle.

Pistoleer has great specials, respectable damage capability, and fast attacks. The great detractor is range.

Rifleman has range, accuracy, and due to the combined accuracy, damage. It has a horrible snare. It has no KDs, Roots. Attacks are also slower that eat the action in large chunks.

You can take up other professions or a combination, i.e. both Rifleman and Pistoleer. You use the appropriate weapon at the appropriate tactical situation.

If you have a combination of ranged templates, you have flexibility. If I was engaged at 60m, I simply pull out my T21. If I am engaged at 10m, I pull out my pistol. The delays at short range from a Rifle are detrimental. A pistol shoots faster, so I can dish out faster attacks and hopefully land important specials to control the target. After all, not all of your attacks land their effects on the first shot...

If I have my pistol equipped and was engaged at 64m, what do I do? Sit there and b**** and moan or somehow close the range with my attacker? Use terrain features to cover my approach to the target? Or just sit there and b***h at 64m and just hold tight to my pistol, cursing the Rifleman profession until I die? Or better yet, switch to a different weapon again for the proper situation.

What is idiotic about that, moron?

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 06-30-2005 08:28 PM

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Lycantha wrote:
>The argument about rifles being at a disadvantage in dungeons is moot.. they SHOULD be. Its a close quarters encounter, and rifles are NOT a close quarters weapon.

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I totally agree, but the problem is that as soon as there is a situation in the game which requires the player to use tactics to succeed, the whining by players with a short attention span immediately starts and - like it or not - thats the kind of players SOE gets the most money from. Those players willing and able to discuss game features in a civilized way are a minority. Sad but true. So I don't believe we will get harsh penalties for using inappropriate equipment/tactics ever again; remember the 2.5x damage modifier Riflemen used to have long ago when being attacked with melee weapons?

People expect to be able to solo almost all content, no matter what profession they are. Meleers cry when they can't solo Krayts because they can't kite them like ranged professions, and Riflemen would cry if they were disadvantaged in the geo cave because of range modifiers. The idea of a well rounded group being required for some content is beyond the capacity of many players.

Look at elemental damage for example...all creatures have the same resists for all damage types. Why? Because that way us carbineers - for example - can't cry because a mob is vulnerable to acid while our only elemental damage type is heat. Remember pistoleers crying because they were useless against Krayt/SBD with their AP1 weapons vs. AR3 high energy resist? All gone away so no one can cry because they cannot beat a certain mob type.

So again: I agree rifles and carbs should have some kind of penalty in close range combat, but I don't think it will happen with the guidelines the current dev team has to work with.

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Warmaker01 wrote:
How hard would it be to point a rifle to someone in the space of say... your living room.

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Boy, you are the veritable fountain of smug, stupid answers aren't you. If you want to bring up real life ask yourself why snipers are the only people left in services with "Rifles" and why they are teamed up with a partner spotting and carrying an Assault Rifle/Carbine?

Point.. yes. Pointing is not aiming. Hence accu penalties.

Ask yourself why entry Teams carry Pistols, SMGs and Carbines. Or better yet call up your local SWAT Commander and explain to him that they dont need those, since a Rem 700 would do just fine.

Yes, its a game, but I competed in Three Gun Practical matches with my late husband. Each weapon has a place, and shines in a different scenario. For the game to have any reflection of actual combat would require a familiarity with all three disciplines or reliance on a team containing all three.

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Warmaker01 wrote:
How hard would it be to point a rifle to someone in the space of say... your living room.

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Point at? Quite easy. Aim? No way. If the target moves even one meter, I'd have to swivel the rifle thirty, maybe sixty degrees, and by that time, he'd probably already have stabbed me in the groin.
It's not easy to aim at a moving target at close range with a pistol, but with a rifle it's much more difficult.
At long range it's easier. What can the target do? It can move left to right or vice versa, but that's easy to compensate for. Or it can move towards or away from you...in that case you have all time in the world to aim for a good hit.

I've shot pistols, SMGs, carbines and RPGs as part of basic training in the German army, and you can believe me when I say at close range you will have problems aiming with rifles or even carbines at moving targets. Much better chance with an pistol...but they don't fire very fast. Your best bet would be the SMG.

Can you put all your opinions in my thread on the Pistoleer board please?

It's useful to have them all together, the link is in TA's orignal post.

Okay, I was away for a bit since I had duty this weekend. So, here are my return fires...

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Lycantha wrote:

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Warmaker01 wrote:
How hard would it be to point a rifle to someone in the space of say... your living room.

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Boy, you are the veritable fountain of smug, stupid answers aren't you. If you want to bring up real life ask yourself why snipers are the only people left in services with "Rifles" and why they are teamed up with a partner spotting and carrying an Assault Rifle/Carbine?

Point.. yes. Pointing is not aiming. Hence accu penalties.

Ask yourself why entry Teams carry Pistols, SMGs and Carbines. Or better yet call up your local SWAT Commander and explain to him that they dont need those, since a Rem 700 would do just fine.

Yes, its a game, but I competed in Three Gun Practical matches with my late husband. Each weapon has a place, and shines in a different scenario. For the game to have any reflection of actual combat would require a familiarity with all three disciplines or reliance on a team containing all three.

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It isn't a stupid answer since it is a valid answer. I am an ACTIVE duty U.S.Marine with almost 12 years of service under my belt.

An Assault Rifle CAN and IS used well for every situation. Regular, open terrain with clear lines. Close Quarters. MOUT. With the proper training, an Assault Rifle can be used effectively in close ranges.

Now, you bring up SWAT and entry teams. They have one huge advantage going for them compared to regular military infantry. When these guys come in, s**t has hit the fan already. Then they arrive, they will have the appropriate gear to best suit that situation. Is it all going to be inside an office building? SMGs and Carbines will dominate their equipment. Longer fields of view? Rifles and maybe some Carbines.

A military unit however does not have as clear cut a picture of when, where, who they will fight, and at what ranges, most of the time. Most of my fellow Marines in Iraq and in the 'Stan have the M16A2 or M16A4 as their primary weapons... Rifles. The A2 being the standard Assault Rifle, and the A4 being utilized by Designated Marksmen of the squad. There's a couple M4's floating around, but make no mistake: The Assault Rifle dominates and for good reason. It is flexible and can be used well in most situations.

Pistols and Carbines excel in real life but have their drawbacks, namely a lack of range. Especially with pistols.

In SWG, the 3 professions are balanced and present strengths and weaknesses. I've posted something simliar to this repeatedly in the various forums:

- Pistoleer: Gets wonderful specials to control the target. Pistols are faster and have lower SAC cost between all the ranged weapons. Pistoleer grants the most defenses of all the 3 specialist ranged professions, but slanted a bit to Melee Defense. If the target is close by, the speed, Pistol Ranged Mods, and useful specials, carry a good punch. Greatest detriment: Range. Average range is about 25m while some can reach 34m.

- Carbineer: A wonderful blend of target control, area attack (truly excels here), and respectable damage capability. In all honesty, I thought this profession would dominate the number of "Master XXX" tags out there. I think it fits better with the general mindset of people's fighting style. Useful in close quarters and can reach out to respectable ranges. SAC costs are in the medium range. However, there are numerous Carbines that only reach out to 35m, and the best reaching out to 50m.

- Rifleman: Range, Accuracy, Hitting Power. There is far more to Rifleman than spamming Impr.Head Shot. Has the potential to load up alot of damage in one attack, but damage over time may suffer. Ranged Defense is good, but Melee Defense is very poor. The Snare (Impr.Knee-Cap Shot) is barely noticeable in its effects. There is no KD and no Root provided within Rifleman itself. Also, Rifles have the highest SAC costs between Rifles, Pistols, and Carbines. Only Commando Heavy Weapons have higher SAC costs.

Each of these 3 professions bring something to the table. If anything, there is too much General Ranged Mods floating around. That's my opinion.

I started a thread about it here:
Possible Solution to the *situation* with Pistoleer, Carbineer, and Rifleman

I'm going to put in a tad bit more of polish before placing a finished version in the Pistoleer Forum / Thread.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 07-03-2005 08:22 AM

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NikkiT wrote:

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Warmaker01 wrote:
How hard would it be to point a rifle to someone in the space of say... your living room.

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Point at? Quite easy. Aim? No way. If the target moves even one meter, I'd have to swivel the rifle thirty, maybe sixty degrees, and by that time, he'd probably already have stabbed me in the groin.
It's not easy to aim at a moving target at close range with a pistol, but with a rifle it's much more difficult.
At long range it's easier. What can the target do? It can move left to right or vice versa, but that's easy to compensate for. Or it can move towards or away from you...in that case you have all time in the world to aim for a good hit.

I've shot pistols, SMGs, carbines and RPGs as part of basic training in the German army, and you can believe me when I say at close range you will have problems aiming with rifles or even carbines at moving targets. Much better chance with an pistol...but they don't fire very fast. Your best bet would be the SMG.

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And where did I say I would be aiming through a scope when my target is close by? That is one of the first things that is beaten through your head in weapons training in boot camp. You will not be carefully aiming in close situations. But you can still reliably present your assault rifle to engage the target in short ranges.

The simple fact is this: I can still present and fire my Assault Rifle easily. I am not lugging around a .50 Cal.

As I've said to the replier just before you:

I'm an ACTIVE duty U.S.Marine. Every Marine is a RIFLEMAN, regardless of their occupation / MOS. The Assault Rifle dominates the services still and for many good reasons. A typical Marine Rifle squad will have a boatload of M16A2s, some A4s, at least 3 SAWs, a few M203s, and maybe an M4 for flavoring. Whole formations of troops walking around standardly equipped with Pistols and Sub-Machine Guns do not happen anymore. I don't even recall this happening with the U.S.Army or Marine Corps even in World War II (Carbines and SMGs sprinkled here and there, and that's it). Special outfits can, because they are specialized for a specific task / mission.

The SMG is a great weapon in close quarters. But once the range increases... completely useless. The Pistol is worse: It lacks range, rate of fire, and magazine capacity to even the SMG.

Pistols are the weapons of last resort or as the sidearm.
SMGs are excellent close quarters weapons. And that's it.
Rifles / Assault Rifles have the range advantage. Assault Rifles are still useful in most situations.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 07-03-2005 08:37 AM

Warmaker01,

Quite frankly your RL experience or RL fact has no meaning in a Galaxy Far, Far Away......so we really don't care what a Rifle does in RL because this isA GAME and it has to be FAIR, BALANCED and FUN.

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BadgerSmaker wrote:

Can you put all your opinions in my thread on the Pistoleer board please?

It's useful to have them all together, the link is in TA's orignal post.

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QFE

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TAfirehawk wrote:

Warmaker01,

Quite frankly your RL experience or RL fact has no meaning in a Galaxy Far, Far Away......so we really don't care what a Rifle does in RL because this is A GAME and it has to be FAIR, BALANCED and FUN.

The attitude of telling all Pistoleers to pickup Rifleman (because of range limitations that Pistoleer has vs. ZERO limitation on Rifleman) is so short sighted and selfish that I am sure 99.9% of the folks on this forum will never both to respond/respect any further posts you make. Not to mention your understanding of the Ranged Profs is quite lacking as well......your theory sounds almost correct but the reality of LIVE is quite different than your post here.

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For SWG: Not as short sighted as some Pistoleers asking for 64m Pistols!

I also fully understand that many players pick up and master more than one of the Ranged Professions. That complicates things. I haven't been with SWG for 1-1/2 years to not realize this.

What I also see is complaints about cross-profession specials usage. What's wrong with that? Do they have a problem with someone using a Rifle and fires off Stopping Shot? Should Rifleman be nerfed because of that? Or should Pistoleer's Stopping Shot be nerfed because of that? Keep in mind this: That guy using the Adv.Laser Rifle may not be a Rifleman at all. Not even Novice Rifleman.

Check my reply earlier, maybe 2 replies by now, for a link. It links to a thread I started in the Rifleman Forum to try to put some flavor and differences between the Ranged Professions, but still retain some of the great cross-profession capability presented by the CU.

Like I said, my proposal needs a tad bit more polishing before I finally present it.

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Warmaker01 wrote:
A military unit however does not have as clear cut a picture of when, where, who they will fight, and at what ranges, most of the time. Most of my fellow Marines in Iraq and in the 'Stan have the M16A2 or M16A4 as their primary weapons... Rifles.

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Warmaker01 wrote:
In SWG, the 3 professions are balanced and present strengths and weaknesses. I've posted something simliar to this repeatedly in the various forums:

- Pistoleer: Gets wonderful specials to control the target. Pistols are faster and have lower SAC cost between all the ranged weapons. Pistoleer grants the most defenses of all the 3 specialist ranged professions, but slanted a bit to Melee Defense. If the target is close by, the speed, Pistol Ranged Mods, and useful specials, carry a good punch. Greatest detriment: Range. Average range is about 25m while some can reach 34m.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 07-03-2005 08:22 AM

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Are you saying that this is the way the game is right now, or that this is the way you wish it to be?

If you are under the impression that this accurately reflects the status of pistoleers now, I'm afraid you are quite mistaken. Those "wonderful" specials to control the target are highly unreliable. Ever try sticking an intimidate on a Krayt, for example? The SAC on pistols is hardly a great advantage, considering how easily action usage can be regulated by powerups, spices, foods, etc. Finally, your most egregious error is in asserting that "Pistols are faster." By what calculation? A rifleman gets 20 general ranged speed and 65 rifle speed for a total of 85. A pistoleer gets 25 general ranged speed and 45 pistol speed for a total of 70.