Carbineer Archive

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Trebonious wrote:

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Warmaker01 wrote:
In SWG, the 3 professions are balanced and present strengths and weaknesses. I've posted something simliar to this repeatedly in the various forums:

- Pistoleer: Gets wonderful specials to control the target. Pistols are faster and have lower SAC cost between all the ranged weapons. Pistoleer grants the most defenses of all the 3 specialist ranged professions, but slanted a bit to Melee Defense. If the target is close by, the speed, Pistol Ranged Mods, and useful specials, carry a good punch. Greatest detriment: Range. Average range is about 25m while some can reach 34m.

Message Edited by Warmaker01 on 07-03-2005 08:22 AM

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Are you saying that this is the way the game is right now, or that this is the way you wish it to be?

If you are under the impression that this accurately reflects the status of pistoleers now, I'm afraid you are quite mistaken. Those "wonderful" specials to control the target are highly unreliable. Ever try sticking an intimidate on a Krayt, for example? The SAC on pistols is hardly a great advantage, considering how easily action usage can be regulated by powerups, spices, foods, etc. Finally, your most egregious error is in asserting that "Pistols are faster." By what calculation? A rifleman gets 20 general ranged speed and 65 rifle speed for a total of 85. A pistoleer gets 25 general ranged speed and 45 pistol speed for a total of 70.

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The states do work. I never mastered Pistoleer but I have dabbled it to various extents in the CU era. The most was 3404.

The special in Pistoleer that most were concerned about for target control, Stopping Shot, did work. Not 100%, no... nobody asks for that. But it does work after a couple attempts. Just remember, as long as you don't completely rely on it, then you're ok.

Body Shot is also a good way to focus your damage output on all those Cybernetic Arm users. Those Arms are gaping holes in their armor protection. Carbineer's Leg Shot focuses on the legs. Rifleman's Head Shot... well, we all know that one!

Fan Shot is a good area/cone attack special for pure damage. It's really the same as BH's Spray Shot.

Warning Shot: Makes the target vulnerable. Not used enough in the groups I've been with from even the Master Pistoleers. Pretty nice when one of them stick it onto a target.

Disarming Shot... self explanatory.

The lower SAC on pistols is an advantage. The problem with some players (in all classes) is insisting on making the highest powered, high SAC costing specials as their default attack. There is little wonder their Action Bars go down so fast. Now, with that out of the way, take a look at the SAC cost of Rifles and Heavy Weapons. If you think these 2 weapon classes have good SAC, then would you mind if Pistols and Carbines be made with the same SAC?

Speed: Speed does make a difference between the ranged professions. It makes a huge difference when the player only masters one of them. If the player is a pure ranged fighter, maxing out everything, then speed isn't an issue.

You ever try Master Rifleman by itself? Trust me, those Rifle/Gen.Ranged Speed mods don't make a pure Master Rifleman a machine gunner.

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NikkiT wrote:

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Warmaker01 wrote:
A military unit however does not have as clear cut a picture of when, where, who they will fight, and at what ranges, most of the time. Most of my fellow Marines in Iraq and in the 'Stan have the M16A2 or M16A4 as their primary weapons... Rifles.

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Actually assault rIfles are often considered carbines (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbine). The rifles in SWG are more similar to "true" (sniper) rifles like the Mauser, the Dragunov or the H&K PSG1, not like assault rifles like the M16, G36 or AK-47: less precise, less punch, but with a higher rate of fire.

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Dictionary definition or not: Carbines are nearly useless past 200-300m. An Assault Rifle can still reach out and touch someone past that distance. Not as well as something like a Battle Rifle (i.e. G3 or M14), but still do the job.

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The lower SAC on pistols is an advantage. The problem with some players (in all classes) is insisting on making the highest powered, high SAC costing specials as their default attack.

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Are you surprised, considering that action cost modifiers are pretty close to each other? Take a look at the numbers, improved leg shot even has slightly lower action cost modifiers than other abilities while offering the highest damage modifier.

A range limitition simply cannot be added to carbineer and rifleman and have bolth prof be still affective. Think how close pvp takes place at about 30-40m. Think how close all the dungeons are 4-8m. If this were to happen pistols would need a huge damage reduction or rifles/carbineers need a huge damage increase. As for reason for equiping a pistol faster movement, better sac.

I would be for strategic range statting on the weapons. The "best" guns of each type would have their supposed traditional ranges for their profession but, there would be options that would sacrifice minimum range for maximum range and vice versa. Lets, say a 20m minimum on the ALR and T-21, 10-50m on proton carb, while adding a long range pistol (de-10?) with 10-50m...you get the idea. Every profession can have long , med, and short range options, but no one gets it all with one gun. Basically they just need to have a very well thought out pass on weapon ranges.

SakeO

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TheSillyOne wrote:

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Warmaker01 wrote:

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The states do work. I never mastered Pistoleer but I have dabbled it to various extents in the CU era. The most was 3404.

The special in Pistoleer that most were concerned about for target control, Stopping Shot, did work. Not 100%, no... nobody asks for that. But it does work after a couple attempts. Just remember, as long as you don't completely rely on it, then you're ok.

Body Shot is also a good way to focus your damage output on all those Cybernetic Arm users. Those Arms are gaping holes in their armor protection. Carbineer's Leg Shot focuses on the legs. Rifleman's Head Shot... well, we all know that one!

Fan Shot is a good area/cone attack special for pure damage. It's really the same as BH's Spray Shot.

Warning Shot: Makes the target vulnerable. Not used enough in the groups I've been with from even the Master Pistoleers. Pretty nice when one of them stick it onto a target.

Disarming Shot... self explanatory.

The lower SAC on pistols is an advantage. The problem with some players (in all classes) is insisting on making the highest powered, high SAC costing specials as their default attack. There is little wonder their Action Bars go down so fast. Now, with that out of the way, take a look at the SAC cost of Rifles and Heavy Weapons. If you think these 2 weapon classes have good SAC, then would you mind if Pistols and Carbines be made with the same SAC?

Speed: Speed does make a difference between the ranged professions. It makes a huge difference when the player only masters one of them. If the player is a pure ranged fighter, maxing out everything, then speed isn't an issue.

You ever try Master Rifleman by itself? Trust me, those Rifle/Gen.Ranged Speed mods don't make a pure Master Rifleman a machine gunner.

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Playing a pistoleer for 12 hours durring respec does not make you an authority on the subject. The states are extremely unreliable, general mods make it so that when given the choice between a pistol and any other weapon the obvious choice is the other weapon. We can't out damage melee mitigations, we don't have enough defense for the range we're limited to, we don't have the damage to do anything about a rifleman even if we did our guns don't fire at those ranges.

I might run faster with a pistol equiped but why in the world would I EVER equip a pistol?

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And playing a video game does not require tenure in a college or technical school to get a very good feel of a game profession.

I have gone back and mastered Pistoleer to get the badge and to get a thorough feel of the profession. That, grinding alot of time solo, group, PVP, PVE... gave me the general feel of the profession. What's great, and what sucks. And I still haven't changed my stance in regards to Pistoleer compared to the other ranged professions.

As for the General Ranged Mods, I figured out that this may be a part of the problem long ago. I have a thread in an attempt to rectify this over here:
Possible Solution to the *situation* with Pistoleer, Carbineer, and Rifleman