Carbineer Archive

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Matchew wrote: If you guys honestly think a dxr6 is worth anything, then come challenge my character, Ahriman, to a duel on Wanderhome. I use a base damage sliced laser carbine, and everytime someone comes at me with anything but a laser, they are punished, and punished hard Its people that use dxr6 carbines that give carbineers a bad name.

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Message Edited by AdmiralSpy on 09-23-2004 11:36 AM

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TAfirehawk wrote:

There Addy goes....gettin all technical.....don't ruin our fun so quick

BTW, thanks for running the numbers, my "busy factor" has went up exponentially here......

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Heh. Well, I tend to get a bit touchy about these things.

I have no doubt that Daemien is a great PvP Carbineer. Many of us are thinkers that rely on tactics and our specials more than raw damage.

However.. the fact that he claims he can beat any carbineer with a sliced base damage Laser Carbine is a bit ridiculous. I've gone against opponents using 120-750ish Laser Carbines (+100 krayt tissues or so) and the only thing that keeps it a stale-mate or even a victory is the fact that I have high defenses to dizzy and KD. Were I a simple Master Carbineer or even a BH/Carbineer.. and got dizzy/KDd.. I'd be dead in seconds, and I know it.

My Laser Carbine itself has 670 max damage. It's not the best, but like the numbers show.. investing good money into a DXR6 (which I now always do) guarantees that opponents who have ranged mitigation 3 and an Imperial PSG are easier for me.

Some food for thought, anyway. We're all here to help ourselves improve, and exploring the new trends of the DXR6 is definitely a good way to start.

Message Edited by AdmiralSpy on 09-23-2004 11:44 AM

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Matchew wrote:
Yes, i run around in 90% base armor, but i have heard 80% is the cap. is that correct? either way, a dxr6, because of its light armor piercing, is not going to be able to do any damage at all.

Actually, 80% is not the cap. 90% means about half the damage goes through what would normally pass in 80% armor.

As for light armor piercing, AP2 only gives you a damage boost (25%) when coupled against composite armor (AR1.) The math calculations I did account for this fact. As you can see, a standard DXR6 is nothing to laugh at - it's pretty close to your Laser.

Now yes, people have energy psg's, but you admitted laser's are more dps without a psg right? Firing once every second is going to waste the psg incredibly quickly. Now yes, you can keep equipping psg's, but eventually you are going to run out, and im not going to have to worry about the damage you are doing to me, since it will not be gonig anywhere

Yes, the Laser does more damage if you don't use a PSG. Don't get me wrong.. I love my Laser Carbine and use it 80% of the time.. most will try to convince me to use an Elite or even an Enhanced E11.. but it just doesn't cut it. Up until recently, I also ignored the DXR6. One less thing to worry about, right?

However, the arguments that PSGs expire quickly is a bit flawed. My PSGs last me a long time (namely because I don't often get hit due to my defense-stacking.) The fact still remains that if we both wear a PSG and I'm using a DXR6, yours is completely worthless. It's all I'm stating.

It may not be a problem in duels.. but keep in mind that 90% of the people I know who duel don't equip PSGs.. since they believe it to bea waste. 95% of the people I openly PvP with (and against), however, do wear one, and will cycle as many PSGs as required to gain that extra protection.

But numbers are numbers.. no matter how you look at it or what argument you use.. using a DXR6 against a PSG-equipped opponent who also has Ranged Damage Mitigation 3 is better than equipping a Laser Carbine.

Now, so far, i may be wrong, i have never seen a dxr6 worth using, no matter how high the damage on it is. I stick to the laser carbine through all times.

That was the biggest issue for me too. Until I finally decided to dish out a few million credits (that left a big hole in my account and set me back a while, heh..) and invest in 6 identical 60+ damage tissues with enough speed reduction that I could bring the crafted weapon down to 2.8 speed (which is pretty much speedcap for me.)

Generally, I don't use it that often. It's still about 800/1000 condition, whereas I've gone through about a half a dozen Laser Carbines in that time. But when I do go up against PSGers with mitigation 3 with my Carbine (I'm also Master Fencer so I'll generally use the Stun Baton, but some situations call for states and KDs), I do notice a disgustinglysurprisingdifference.

Just keep it in mind. If you can afford to get a good krayt one made, do so. You might just be surprised.

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Message Edited by AdmiralSpy on 09-23-2004 10:07 PM

Unfortunately, when you try to compare bigscale pvp, then a good fight is hardly ever available. With dots, and cm's, battle is totally different, so i actually run around with a cdef just to apply states while my buddies do all the damage. Carbineer is not a damaging profession unfortunately.

although i do love how it requires a bit of skill to play, unlike spamming your favorite special all the time. I respect your guys opinions, but TA, you cant make these damage calculations, because weapon stats are completely different on servers. I just say, that a dxr6 on my server is not nearly as good as a laser, stat wise. Now, i would like to see a high damage dxr compared to a high damage laser, but i just cant fathom having a light armor piercing weapon, in my own experiences, it just seems i cant match the damage.

This is my own experiences, and you cant argue that. If you throw numbers back in my face, then fine. But they are your own numbers, not mine.

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Matchew wrote:
Unfortunately, when you try to compare bigscale pvp, then a good fight is hardly ever available. With dots, and cm's, battle is totally different, so i actually run around with a cdef just to apply states while my buddies do all the damage. Carbineer is not a damaging profession unfortunately.

although i do love how it requires a bit of skill to play, unlike spamming your favorite special all the time. I respect your guys opinions, but TA, you cant make these damage calculations, because weapon stats are completely different on servers. I just say, that a dxr6 on my server is not nearly as good as a laser, stat wise. Now, i would like to see a high damage dxr compared to a high damage laser, but i just cant fathom having a light armor piercing weapon, in my own experiences, it just seems i cant match the damage.

This is my own experiences, and you cant argue that. If you throw numbers back in my face, then fine. But they are your own numbers, not mine.

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Lets compare Wanderhome's Carbines as per Novamarine's guns: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=carabineer&message.id=35745#M35745

And for reference, here is the Weaponsmith that made my Carbines and the stats on his weapons: http://stettin.guennibearserver.com/weapontable.php

With 85% Comp, Ranged Mitigation 3 and WITHOUT PSG, a Wanderhome DXR6 does74.8 DPS speed capped with CripplingShot, whereas a Laser in the same situation does73.5 DPS.

With 85% Comp, Ranged Mitigation 3 and40% Energy PSG, a Wanderhome DXR6 does74.8 DPS speed capped with CripplingShot, whereas a Laser in the same situation does44.1 DPS.

With 85% Comp, WITHOUT Ranged Mitigation 3 and WITHOUT PSG, a Wanderhome DXR6 does76.8 DPS speed capped with CripplingShot, whereas a Laser in the same situation does119.9 DPS.

With 85% Comp, WITHOUT Ranged Mitigation 3 and40% EnergyPSG, a Wanderhome DXR6 does76.8 DPS speed capped with CripplingShot, whereas a Laser in the same situation does71.9 DPS.

Now we have little arguement about my figures on Chilastra vs. what Carbines are available on Wanderhome.

Message Edited by TAfirehawk on 09-24-2004 10:34 AM

for those following this "discussion" Ill give a view point on the weaponsmith pov.

Now matchew wants to say that TA's calculations using standard weapon stats from Vhilastra are invalid to him since they are on different servers. I can at least assuage that weapon stats have pretty much topped out at what they will be. (except maybe on the euro servers) Enough spawns on all the North America Servers have spawned to make the variation in weapon stats vary only slightly on almost all weapons. Stettin arguably one of the best weaponsmiths on Chilastra has a nice table of his weapon stats... Stettins Weapon List And this is probably a good source for TA to use calculate his numbers. He can safely assume that all smugglers can get damage slices on all servers, and that 30% powerups exist on all servers too if he wants to do that...

Now DXR6s take Titanium Aluminum and Platinite Copper Laser Carbines take Link-Steel Alum and a Non-Ferrous Metal. Best of ratings scored on SWGCraft show this:

Rating(50%OQ/50%Cond)
Resource Best of ChilastraBest of Wanderhome
Titanium Alum680 647
Platinite Copper966 943
Linksteel Alum825 846
Non-Ferrous999 957


Now what this shows is that the weapons crafted on each sever will be about the same. Possibly DXR6s are 5-7 points less in Max Damage and Laser Carbines are 5-7 points more in Max Damage. But that hardly points to a weapon superiority. So TA using his standard weapon stats for his calculations is Perfectly reasonable.

So if the calculations come out that DXR6s apply a heaver DPS with armor and mitigation being considered then it stands to reason that the DXR6 is the better weapon for that situation. Just because the laser carbine feels better to you. and you happen to beat 16 random folks Means nothing. Its such a low statistical count to even be considered believable so you should stop trying to mislead your fellow carbineers.

I have never played a carbineer, but I do know weaponsmithing. And at thsi point in the game we weaponsmiths have topped out the stats on our weapons about as much as they will go. It is now safe to start making general assumptions about Standard stock weapons and Slices and Powerups can be assumed also...availability of Krayt Tissues and Legendary/Exceptional loot are, of course, still not applicable.

from the TK(Weaponsmith) Troll...unofficially

Message Edited by LordMaxx on 09-24-2004 10:46 AM

Message Edited by LordMaxx on 09-24-2004 10:48 AM

I don't have too much else to add to this thread - I think it was pretty much summed up, but in response to:

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Matchew wrote:
Unfortunately, when you try to compare bigscale pvp, then a good fight is hardly ever available. With dots, and cm's, battle is totally different, so i actually run around with a cdef just to apply states while my buddies do all the damage. Carbineer is not a damaging profession unfortunately.

Well this is where some of us disagree. Running around with a high speed CDEF is great, but getting a speed slice on an Enhanced E11 or Laser might be better. There's really *no* excuse to use a CDEF unless it's an exceptional looted (or really well crafted one.) If you're looking to apply states, look into the Enhanced E11 - heck, it even applies a free bleed for ya.

As for damage, this is where we also beg to differ. You will however need to get your weapons krayt made and damage sliced in order to compete though, yes. But it's not impossible.

I just say, that a dxr6 on my server is not nearly as good as a laser, stat wise. Now, i would like to see a high damage dxr compared to a high damage laser, but i just cant fathom having a light armor piercing weapon, in my own experiences, it just seems i cant match the damage.

Don't look at the max damage. Min damage is extremely important as well. Damage factors in both of them, as well as the weapon speed. Armor piercing isn't all that important, until you're talking about the T21 with AP3.

We did the math to prove this point - what you choose to do from now on is up to you. A DXR6 will never give you the "instant gratification" of raw damage. It should only really be used against PSG users.. and it's hard to tell who is wearing one and who isn't. But it's not impossible, and certainly worth thinking about.

Max damage isn't everything. Mitigation 3 takes away 60% of it. This is the same reason why Fencers were delirious when bugged min/max acklay bones would drop. They could create Gaffi sticks and Stun Batons with such a tight damage range (within 5-10 points of each other) that they pretty much ALWAYS hit their opponents for the "highest damage roll" possible. Suddenly melee toughness and mitigation weren't so effective anymore.

The DXR6 has much higher min damage than the Laser. In most cases, this doesn't matter. But in certain cases, coupled with a PSG, it does.

This is my own experiences, and you cant argue that. If you throw numbers back in my face, then fine. But they are your own numbers, not mine.

That's true. It may be that on your server PvP etiquette is different. I've PvPed on 3 servers now, and it's completely different from one to the other. Generally though, the conclusion that I've made is that a well-made DXR6 (krayt tissues and form-fitting stock) is great.

In fact, the arguement we're putting here is the same as the one for Riflemen and their DXR6b Tenloss "geo" rifle. You know the one.. that nasty stinging cool-firing one, heh. It's generally not all that much better than a T21 or Jawa (remember when those were everywhere?).. but you see A LOT of them now.

Why? PSGs..

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Matchew wrote:
Now, so far, i may be wrong, i have never seen a dxr6 worth using, no matter how high the damage on it is. I stick to the laser carbine through all times.

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How about a 2.7 speed, 177-380 damage DXR6? I think that is very much worth using. So much so that it is the hands down BEST carbine I have, even when a PSG is not invloved. Theonly time that it is not the best carbine in my bag is against someone without aPSG and no ranged mitigation 3.

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Matchew wrote:
Now, i would like to see a high damage dxr compared to a high damage laser, but i just cant fathom having a light armor piercing weapon, in my own experiences, it just seems i cant match the damage.

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Even with AP2, against mitigation 3 or a PSG the Laser takes a huge hit to damage, thus negating any advantage it previously had due to AP.

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AdmiralSpy wrote:
I don't have too much else to add to this thread - I think it was pretty much summed up, but in response to:

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Matchew wrote:
Unfortunately, when you try to compare bigscale pvp, then a good fight is hardly ever available. With dots, and cm's, battle is totally different, so i actually run around with a cdef just to apply states while my buddies do all the damage. Carbineer is not a damaging profession unfortunately.

Well this is where some of us disagree. Running around with a high speed CDEF is great, but getting a speed slice on an Enhanced E11 or Laser might be better. There's really *no* excuse to use a CDEF unless it's an exceptional looted (or really well crafted one.) If you're looking to apply states, look into the Enhanced E11 - heck, it even applies a free bleed for ya.

As for damage, this is where we also beg to differ. You will however need to get your weapons krayt made and damage sliced in order to compete though, yes. But it's not impossible.

I just say, that a dxr6 on my server is not nearly as good as a laser, stat wise. Now, i would like to see a high damage dxr compared to a high damage laser, but i just cant fathom having a light armor piercing weapon, in my own experiences, it just seems i cant match the damage.

Don't look at the max damage. Min damage is extremely important as well. Damage factors in both of them, as well as the weapon speed. Armor piercing isn't all that important, until you're talking about the T21 with AP3.

We did the math to prove this point - what you choose to do from now on is up to you. A DXR6 will never give you the "instant gratification" of raw damage. It should only really be used against PSG users.. and it's hard to tell who is wearing one and who isn't. But it's not impossible, and certainly worth thinking about.

Max damage isn't everything. Mitigation 3 takes away 60% of it. This is the same reason why Fencers were delirious when bugged min/max acklay bones would drop. They could create Gaffi sticks and Stun Batons with such a tight damage range (within 5-10 points of each other) that they pretty much ALWAYS hit their opponents for the "highest damage roll" possible. Suddenly melee toughness and mitigation weren't so effective anymore.

The DXR6 has much higher min damage than the Laser. In most cases, this doesn't matter. But in certain cases, coupled with a PSG, it does.

This is my own experiences, and you cant argue that. If you throw numbers back in my face, then fine. But they are your own numbers, not mine.

That's true. It may be that on your server PvP etiquette is different. I've PvPed on 3 servers now, and it's completely different from one to the other. Generally though, the conclusion that I've made is that a well-made DXR6 (krayt tissues and form-fitting stock) is great.

In fact, the arguement we're putting here is the same as the one for Riflemen and their DXR6b Tenloss "geo" rifle. You know the one.. that nasty stinging cool-firing one, heh. It's generally not all that much better than a T21 or Jawa (remember when those were everywhere?).. but you see A LOT of them now.

Why? PSGs..

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Just had a 20 minute duel with a pikeman yesterday, i used both guns for half the fight. He was wearing a psg, and i was hitting him for 150-200 through armor with the dxr6, and 150-300 through armor with the laser carbine.

Laser carbine had a damage of 170-420, as opposed to the dxr6, which is around 206-296. They both had the same damage slice. As you can see, even with its higher min damage, the laser was still doing more damage, just because of its crafted superiorness (is that even a word?).

The reason i said running around with a cdef is because of its good ranged mods in close battles, since thats where it normally ends up. Its +20 at ideal, as opposed to a dxr6 which is -20, and the laser which is -45. I did this template because of its outstanding accuracy, and so far it is paying off.

I dont just look at max damage as you say, i look at everything. The only thing i dont look at is speed, because i am capped from BH. But ap, min/max, range mods, ham costs etc. i look at everything. For some reason, you cant really see other people's points, and only want to see your's. I know what im talking about. I wouldnt be the most sought after Carbineer on Wanderhome for nothing. And yes, armor piercing is incredibly important, because its different calculations both ways. not just 25% higher, but if the armor is higher, then its a 50% redution, not 25%. And the reason people use the disruptor rifle is not because of Acid damage, its because of its incredible ideal range mod, which reaches upwards of +130 and above.

I have also pvp'ed on numerous servers, from heavily populated, to semi-populated, to zero populated. And the best carbineers on those servers mainly stuck with a laser carbine.

Seriously, just come on over to Wanderhome, ill hook you up with 80% armor, and the carbines you need, and i will show you. I know you may not want to level, but your own ego's alone will probably make you want to come over and prove me wrong. So we will see if you accept.