Carbineer Archive
Thread: The difference between Carbineers and carbine users:
Master Carbineer leaves you with 158 nice skill points left. so your post actualy doesn't mean anything except if you choose to match your carbine skills with another skill that will not enhance it. This, again is a personnal choice and doesn't mean that Carbine profession is as broken as some claim.
lol, even my friends who think pistoleer is a broken class have admitted that carbineer is the single most broken combat class in the game (i made them forget about pikemen 
). i'm a CH with medic skills, and even i have a very large problem with HAM costs. in fact, my mind runs out in about 15 shots from healing myself... so i too do damage to an unhealable pool in order to keep myself shooting, but it doesn't last long.
if i didn't have creatures, i would easily die while fighting anything. hell, i'm tempted to fight a novice pistoleer and see who wins.
i've been a carbineer since launch, and i only picked up CH later to supplement my abilities, so my viewing isn't skewed. hell, DH-17s at launch had higher HAM costs than my stocked laser now, so i've been noticing our biggest problems for a long time.
yes, the people who have stayed buffed for their entire time as carbineer because they are holocron-ing it, or those who picked up BH first and then grabbed carbineer, and then run to our forums telling US, the people who are primarily carbineers, that our profession is not broken, are skewed. more than that, they are completely missing the point.
personally, i don't believe that BH carbine should ever be a substitute for what the Carbineer trees should be. further more, i cant stay buffed all the time. my PAs docs are always somewhere else, and i refuse to spend 6k every 2 hours in order to use specials more than 7 times in a row without running out of HAMs. also, because i am usually out around our player city, i also refuse to run 6km back to the nearest outpost on dantooine just to get buffed. i try to avoid the "death express" due to the decay penalties. buffing is just too much of a hassle for me, and i don't want to rely on it too much, for then i will never be able to function well without buffs.
I guess the title applies to me.
I am a BH/Carbineer. I have used the Carbine since the beginning of the game, this server.
When I decided it was time to become a Bounty Hunter I had 0 pistol and 0 rifle.
I love my Carbine, I have lived with the HAM costs. I look forward to the proposed changes in HAM cost.
I think the Carbine rocks, it still has a rocky road in it's near future, but I think that it will and does prove itself as the weapon it is.
AriasImmortal wrote:
Zackk wrote:
Master Carbineer leaves you with 158 nice skill points left. so your post actualy doesn't mean anything except if you choose to match your carbine skills with another skill that will not enhance it. This, again is a personnal choice and doesn't mean that Carbine profession is as broken as some claim.
so are you telling us that we should have to support ourselves with another combat class just to be effective? what about those that choose to go musician or weaponsmith? pistoleer uses just as many skillpoints as carbineer does, yet they don't have to grab CH or BH or doctor to be a damage dealing machine. i have Mpistoleer friends, and i almost never see them buff except for PvP. they can also spam almost 5 times more specials than i can before they run out of HAM.
i've picked up CH and Medic, i have 18 skillpoints left, and i'm still killing myself. even with pets to take damage and agro for me, i still get incapped and killed a lot. i still consider carbineer broken. so yes, i'm one of those people who picked up something else to compensate for carbineers problems, but i was a carbineer first, and the problems are still plauging me
I've tried many professions as well as Flame Thrower line and Pistol. And i never felt inferior in PVP'in. I dueled many times with my brother who is Master Pistoleer and apart the ham cost that seem to be too high, a carbineer is just not as weak as some people seem to think. And i also think that yes, if you want to get the most out of a class that leave you with so many skill points free to spend, you should use them to complete yourself if the only thing you want is getting better at combat.
Personnally i feel more comfortable PVP'ing with master carbineer than flame thrower. For PVE, i always loved to save friends with a quick KD when they got aggroed by some lizard..I alsoalways used a DH17 instead of those crappy lasers that doesn't offer good accuracy (miss too much), are not constant in damage and use way too much ham. Of course, profession has it share of problems, just like many others, but it's just not as weak as some people think. I personnally never got "owned" bad in PVP (not using my pets)/ Requires strategy andgood use of specials. Plus since the class isn't "uber", the only comment i received to date while i was PVP'in were stuff like "kd sammer got no skill blabla". lol.
Basically what i want to say is just it's not total crap, i find it way better than riffleman and to a different level, not inferior to pistoleer (just different strats and skills).
my 2c nobody need to agree with it.
for god's sake...Carbineer, as a whole, is not broken.
+105 counterattack is nice, decent ranged and melee defense. accuracy kicks butt now, and speed is just fine (master Marksman gives you an additional +10 acc, +5 speed...might not sound like much, but it's not bad to have).
crippling shot is not broken. burst shot is not broken. suppressionfire2 is not broken. actionshot2 is not only a bleed, it gets area and posture change adds? much better than healthshot2. legshot3 isn't broken, and we get it well before pistoleers get bodyshot3. chargeshot1 is the only KD not on a timer...not broken. fullautoarea? seriously...not broken. scattershot (1 or 2) don't do huge dmg in PvP, but they aren't broken, they do what they are supposed to.
so we are left with wild shot, and chargeshot2 as the ones that aren't working correctly...
BUT...Pistoleers have almost no viable options for AP capability...the Republic Blaster is still a mystery, the DX2 ap might still be broken (it was last i heard), and the SR Combat is a joke. the FWG5 got nerfed, and had no AP, anyways...on the other hand, Carbineer gets DXR6, Elite (say what you want...it's working great for me, and it's far better than a DX2), Laser Carbines (IMO...similar to the FWG5 in that the dmg range is so wild, but the diff is this one is AP2, and FWG5 has no ap at all), and e11s...additionally, the weapons we don't even bother with (ee3, for example) are on par with, or better than almost any Pistoleer weapon.
i have a non-krayt ee3 right now that's 97-228, with 2.5 speed...with the Carbineer specials, that kicks butt. i use it doing Mawgax missions on Yav all the time (to save condition on my 'good' weapons), and the thing cleans up.
now...Pistoleers get fan shot and stopping shot for good specials...those two are awesome. body shot 3 works nicely, healthshot 2 is ok (though inferior to action shot 2), and...wow. what else? double tap is ok...
disarming shot is a joke. they get no ranged KD...other than fan shot, no state based shots...at all. Carbineer shots not adding states often enough? well...Pistoleer moves don't even have a chance.
in other words...we get more specials that *do* have a purpose, we get a ranged KD, and we get weapons that can actually poke holes in pop cans...say what you want about DPS...when you're in PvP squaring off with a guy whose dmg gets eaten by your armor, and you're toting a Laser Carbine that'll punch right through his...and the other guy had to spend an additional 49 points to get decent PvP specials (unarmed 4 and dirty fighting 4...49 points total), you're at a distinct advantage.
Carbineer has some minor issues to address...charge shot 2, wild shot, wild shot 2...beyond that, things are just fine.
Zackk wrote:
Master Carbineer leaves you with 158 nice skill points left. so your post actualy doesn't mean anything except if you choose to match your carbine skills with another skill that will not enhance it. This, again is a personnal choice and doesn't mean that Carbine profession is as broken as some claim.
Man, I thought I addressed this. This time, it's a CH with something to say. This thread is not an insult to the people with the bandage classes. I myself have taken up Doctor to make the classworkfor me. I was a BH before that. However, I went the pure Carbineer route before taking up Doctor. I was a BH carbine dabbler, and dropped it to go Carbineer / Doctor for my guild's sake, because we needed a Doctor.I understand the flaws fully. Master Carbineer leaves you with 158 skill points to distribute, this is true. The point of the thread Zackk, was to say that there are only a few places you can put those points to be effective as a Carbineer. Also to say that people who take those few routes shouldn't post about how unbroken the class is, because those classes do a very god job of covering up the major flaws of the base class. I listed many of the Carbineer's problems in an earlier post......and that wasn't even all of them........ but I know that some people may jump straight from the first post to the last. I will refer you to the previous posts to back up my claim, and say once again, even the devs agree with those of us who say that the class is broken. Taking classes that cover up the brokeness of the class does not make it unbroken. It just makes you less affected by it.
Auspeks wrote:
for god's sake...Carbineer, as a whole, is not broken.
+105 counterattack is nice, decent ranged and melee defense. accuracy kicks butt now, and speed is just fine (master Marksman gives you an additional +10 acc, +5 speed...might not sound like much, but it's not bad to have).
crippling shot is not broken. burst shot is not broken. suppressionfire2 is not broken. actionshot2 is not only a bleed, it gets area and posture change adds? much better than healthshot2. legshot3 isn't broken, and we get it well before pistoleers get bodyshot3. chargeshot1 is the only KD not on a timer...not broken. fullautoarea? seriously...not broken. scattershot (1 or 2) don't do huge dmg in PvP, but they aren't broken, they do what they are supposed to.
so we are left with wild shot, and chargeshot2 as the ones that aren't working correctly...
BUT...Pistoleers have almost no viable options for AP capability...the Republic Blaster is still a mystery, the DX2 ap might still be broken (it was last i heard), and the SR Combat is a joke. the FWG5 got nerfed, and had no AP, anyways...on the other hand, Carbineer gets DXR6, Elite (say what you want...it's working great for me, and it's far better than a DX2), Laser Carbines (IMO...similar to the FWG5 in that the dmg range is so wild, but the diff is this one is AP2, and FWG5 has no ap at all), and e11s...additionally, the weapons we don't even bother with (ee3, for example) are on par with, or better than almost any Pistoleer weapon.
i have a non-krayt ee3 right now that's 97-228, with 2.5 speed...with the Carbineer specials, that kicks butt. i use it doing Mawgax missions on Yav all the time (to save condition on my 'good' weapons), and the thing cleans up.
now...Pistoleers get fan shot and stopping shot for good specials...those two are awesome. body shot 3 works nicely, healthshot 2 is ok (though inferior to action shot 2), and...wow. what else? double tap is ok...
disarming shot is a joke. they get no ranged KD...other than fan shot, no state based shots...at all. Carbineer shots not adding states often enough? well...Pistoleer moves don't even have a chance.
in other words...we get more specials that *do* have a purpose, we get a ranged KD, and we get weapons that can actually poke holes in pop cans...say what you want about DPS...when you're in PvP squaring off with a guy whose dmg gets eaten by your armor, and you're toting a Laser Carbine that'll punch right through his...and the other guy had to spend an additional 49 points to get decent PvP specials (unarmed 4 and dirty fighting 4...49 points total), you're at a distinct advantage.
Carbineer has some minor issues to address...charge shot 2, wild shot, wild shot 2...beyond that, things are just fine.
My friend, if you're firing a pumped-up FWG5 or Republic Blaster with super damage at a shot per second, and have the ability to spam your uber shots, you don't need half the stuff that the Carbineer class has. What's AP capability when you're dropping shots that hit for 500 damage (PvP) at 1 shot per second, through armor, without having to knock someone down? That's exactly whya Pistoleer can end a duel in two hits. As far as state based shots go, which shots do you mean? Our states are broken. Stun doesn't make you drop a turn, and our dizzy doesn't work. Blind works, thankfully. Posture changes are on the timer, which kills their effectiveness. The oh-so-vaunted knockdown is our only saving grace. If we could do decent damage while they were up, this wouldn't be such a big deal. Again, I made a list of our problems a while back. Rather than rehash, I'll just direct back to that post. Our specials are the beginning of the problem, not the end.
cloakanddagger said:
"Carbineers need help. Carbineer/BHs do not. Carbineer/Doctors do not."
Just to let you know this is what I posted for the devs regarding the problems:
Issue 3: I agree with the Carbineer correspondant, our carbine HAM costs are too high.
Misguidedfixes IMHO is the carbine HAM issue, in order to fix KD spamming devs increased carbine HAM costs across the board, this didn't work so devs put in the timer, but the carbine HAM costs basically prevent me from using a carbine for anything other then status changes, and that with a DH-17 at best. I can't even use my marksman carbine skills without hurting myself due to HAM cost. Let alone the BH carbine line, so for all practical purposes a third ofour weapon skill lines is bonked.
So, BHs are not saying Carbineer line is fine.
Message Edited by Tanks on 12-01-2003 07:18 AM
Actually...the BH/carbineer is in BIG trouble with the coming patch. Unless they are doctor buffed or eating huge amounts of food, they are going to fire too fast for the HAM regeneration to keep up with the HAM cost.
I used to be a BH/carbineer and I fired at 1 second. I took eleven shots of crippleshot or 11 seconds to drain my HAM. I would counter this with StimCs. Fire 11 times, heal. Repeat.
Healing is gone from TC and the regeneration is not high enough to keep up with this firing rate.
Tanks wrote:
cloakanddagger said:
"Carbineers need help. Carbineer/BHs do not. Carbineer/Doctors do not."
Just to let you know this is what I posted for the devs regarding the problems:
Issue 3: I agree with the Carbineer correspondant, our carbine HAM costs are too high.
Misguidedfixes IMHO is the carbine HAM issue, in order to fix KD spamming devs increased carbine HAM costs across the board, this didn't work so devs put in the timer, but the carbine HAM costs basically prevent me from using a carbine for anything other then status changes, and that with a DH-17 at best. I can't even use my marksman carbine skills without hurting myself due to HAM cost. Let alone the BH carbine line, so for all practical purposes a third ofour weapon skill lines is bonked.
So, BHs are not saying Carbineer line is fine.
Message Edited by Tanks on 12-01-2003 07:18 AM
Didn't mean the BH carbine line. BH's have a carbine tree. This is about the Carbineer CLASS. A Carbineer / BH hybrid hits the speed cap, and has more than enough accuracy by adding that one tree, to cover the deficiencies of the stand-alone Carbineer class. Come on people, read from start to finish. And, I agree about the new TC changes killing the class. With no way to heal yourself of your self-inflicted wounds, life as a Carbineer / anything will not be worth living. May the devs hang their heads in shame.
I just dropped Master pistoleer to take up carbine. Anyone who says that carbine is not hurting, in my opinion, is a retard. When I can spam stopping shot all day long and not have to heal, but can't use full auto single more than 6 times, well that to me is busted.
Hopefully the proposed nerfs..er I mean changes, will help a bit, but with SOE's track record with "fixes" we could be in for more trouble!
Auspeks wrote:
for god's sake...Carbineer, as a whole, is not broken.
+105 counterattack is nice, decent ranged and melee defense. accuracy kicks butt now, and speed is just fine (master Marksman gives you an additional +10 acc, +5 speed...might not sound like much, but it's not bad to have).
crippling shot is not broken. burst shot is not broken. suppressionfire2 is not broken. actionshot2 is not only a bleed, it gets area and posture change adds? much better than healthshot2. legshot3 isn't broken, and we get it well before pistoleers get bodyshot3. chargeshot1 is the only KD not on a timer...not broken. fullautoarea? seriously...not broken. scattershot (1 or 2) don't do huge dmg in PvP, but they aren't broken, they do what they are supposed to.
so we are left with wild shot, and chargeshot2 as the ones that aren't working correctly...
BLAHBLAHBLAH
Carbineer has some minor issues to address...charge shot 2, wild shot, wild shot 2...beyond that, things are just fine.
Good god, why do you bother to write anything if you're not going to bother getting yourself educated about the subject?
First off, Legshot3 is broken. There's a feature called "Search." Look for it.
Second, FullAutoSingle1 and 2and FullAutoArea1 and 2 are broken. They're supposed to apply Dizzy, which sticks for exactly 0.0 seconds.
Third, Scattershot2 does tremendous damage, which you would know if you ever picked up a carbine.
Fourth, Wildshot2 is working. It causes moderate to high damage and applies Stun. Of course, its only viability is as a low HAM alternative to FullAutoArea2, but other than that it's working.
As for Pistoleers not having good specials, **edit**? They have almost no HAM costs and godly speed. I wouldn't care about state changes if I could spam legshot2 nonstop every second. At that point your DPS is so high there's no point to stun or dizzy.
novamarine wrote:
Actually...the BH/carbineer is in BIG trouble with the coming patch. Unless they are doctor buffed or eating huge amounts of food, they are going to fire too fast for the HAM regeneration to keep up with the HAM cost.
I used to be a BH/carbineer and I fired at 1 second. I took eleven shots of crippleshot or 11 seconds to drain my HAM. I would counter this with StimCs. Fire 11 times, heal. Repeat.
Healing is gone from TC and the regeneration is not high enough to keep up with this firing rate.
not really since with right food combo, I can fire all of myspecial at 0 cost, so regeneration and healing doesn't even matter to me at all.
and if even I swap tattoine sunburn with breath of heaven which i'm currently using, even right now I run out ham too fast for sunburn to regenerate.