Carbineer Archive
Thread: Nova/TA & others RE: counterattack & combat balance threads
MasterTexiria wrote:
Great post! I really think this has been one of the best non JTLS FF posts.
Like TA I think that nerfing armor, buffs, speeds ( especially those 2 professions whose names I won't mention but they are the mind killers just like fear ), But also I think other armors should be balanced so that there isn't just one type of PvP armor becuase that still becomes very boring and repetitive.
I started to put this part into my response to jfang's post, but after reading your post it more specifically addressed something with armor that fits better here. I honestly can't believe I forgot this in my original post, but when armor was discussed it was stated that they're looking into putting armor certifications into the game much like weapon certs, and moreover, it wouldn't be done in a blanket sort of way such that every elite profession would have access to all the different armor types either. Right now, a brand new character could be handed a set of 80%+ composite armor and wear it. Under the potential new way of doing things, that would never be possible. One of the things in particular that was discussed was armor being used that makes sense for the profession. In a non-rifleman example for a change *g*, TK's were thrown out and Keldarin said it makes no sense that a Teras Kasi Artist would be able to execute the elaborate attacks and combat maneuvers and have the kind of flexibility needed to do them in a set of heavy/bulky composite armor, so in a case like that, they might be given, say, certs for tantel and padded armor. With this kind of thought process introduced across the professions, that alone would change things up so that you wouldn't see 90% of the player base running around in only composite. I for one also think they should change armor in general to make it more diverse across the boards, maybe give each type it's own specific natural 'special protection'. Just as an example: bone armor is the lowest end armor in the game, doesn't even take an armorsmith, craftable by master artisans. Keep everything else lower end on it, but given that it's made from alot of organic material, give it high protection against lightning attacks maybe.
Bennyboy4308 wrote:
I hope you mean moving the current T21 up to master not making a more powerful one?
That's the way I took it, yes, although I suppose he could have meant the other. Rest easy though, even if it were that way, the rifleman you know now wouldn't be using it, wouldn't be able to firing it at high speed, and wouldn't be able to kite you at ~20 meters and hit you with near the same accuracy as he/she can now.
Rorenikibi wrote:
Forgetting the poisons, or are we still drugged from their effects?
Ok, here's where I risk disenfranchising alot of folks on the front end....but the subject of CM's most definitely brougnt up in a big, big way by some folks in one of the forums I went to. One thing that *was* said/admitted is that their ability to chuck their wares from a range beyond 64 meters is definitely a bug and will definitely be fixed. However, Keldarin's response as it related to CM's and their current abilities as they stand right now was: they're not overpowered, they're working as intended and don't need a nerf.
Now, having paused a moment to let you all stew and fume and your innards all implode in an oncoming fit of rage
....let me continue with the rest of what he said, which I do happen to agree with and makes sense/seems reasonable to me. What he said also was, the problems inherent in the current system as it exists now is that there aren't enough defenses and counters for others to what a CM can do. One major idea that he threw out that I really liked and would make a big difference was the idea of some sort of innoculation packs that doctors would make that would significantly increase your resistance to poison/disease. Take note of the fact that such a solution would not only combat and help balance out the threat of what a CM can do, it would also have the added benefit of also being a defense against the new wave (at least on our server) of psycho DOT weapon artists who buy/collect these things and throw about 5-6 of them on you at once as well. Bottom line: the problem is one of lack of defenses/counters against any and all forms of DOT poison/disease regardless of the source, (fire already has a solution similar now with the introduction of the doctor fire blankets, and bleeds can already be dealt with by medics/docs), not a problem necessitating a major CM nerf.
Message Edited by TalonKarrdeTN on 06-24-2004 10:34 AM
jfang wrote:
I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. Given circumstances, almost anybody would have yielded to the devs... And while happening to be next to them mentioning a personal annoyance with game mechanics while next to a dev is only natural. I was saying this facetiously, although the tone may not have come across well. Sorry if it didn't.
Oh no no, I didn't take what you said this way at all. I was just trying to point out the fact that almost all the most basic/bandied about issues had definitely all been communicated by that point (this was the night of the 2nd day when it was almost over), and if you had been in my place, unless your issue was one that was more specific in nature that the general masses hadn't/wouldn't have brought up, you probably wouldn't have rehashed something you'd already heard others bring up in person. 
Gary himself even said when I was gracious and allowed them ahead of me that I could feel free to use the opportunity as a 'yell at the devs free' card. My actual initial response based solely on wit was, "How about a free month?" (I didn't get the chance to tell him I have three accounts and I was asking on behalf of all three *g*). Other than the carbine cone issue though which was actually secondary, my first question had to do with trying to squeezea little more info out about how they were going to handle the issue of shipwrights as it applies to skill points with JTL. Otherwise it was general chitchat and thanking him for all the work they put into FF and for the job/work he/they do in general.
Back on the cone issue, you said you're happy with it as it is, maybe it's something I'm doing wrong somehow, but just for example, couple of nights ago I went on an outing with a couple guildies to the Geonosian cave, and we were in the mercenary room which is fairly small. One of my guildies is a melee temploiteer and was tanking about 7-8 of them, and I was backed up into a corner using FAA2. Within a normal spread of a semiautomatic weapon with your typical range of motion, I should have been able to potentially hit every single one of them, but the most I ever was able to hit was about three. And yes, this was keeping the centermost/closest NPC targeted as much as possible as they moved around. This is what I mean when I say the cone is too narrow, but perhaps it's actually a problem elsewhere and not with the cone itself. If one of you guys could help me figure this out I'd appreciate it anyway.
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
jfang wrote:
I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. Given circumstances, almost anybody would have yielded to the devs... And while happening to be next to them mentioning a personal annoyance with game mechanics while next to a dev is only natural. I was saying this facetiously, although the tone may not have come across well. Sorry if it didn't.
Oh no no, I didn't take what you said this way at all. I was just trying to point out the fact that almost all the most basic/bandied about issues had definitely all been communicated by that point (this was the night of the 2nd day when it was almost over), and if you had been in my place, unless your issue was one that was more specific in nature that the general masses hadn't/wouldn't have brought up, you probably wouldn't have rehashed something you'd already heard others bring up in person.
Back on the cone issue, you said you're happy with it as it is, maybe it's something I'm doing wrong somehow, but just for example, couple of nights ago I went on an outing with a couple guildies to the Geonosian cave, and we were in the mercenary room which is fairly small. One of my guildies is a melee temploiteer and was tanking about 7-8 of them, and I was backed up into a corner using FAA2. Within a normal spread of a semiautomatic weapon with your typical range of motion, I should have been able to potentially hit every single one of them, but the most I ever was able to hit was about three. And yes, this was keeping the centermost/closest NPC targeted as much as possible as they moved around. This is what I mean when I say the cone is too narrow, but perhaps it's actually a problem elsewhere and not with the cone itself. If one of you guys could help me figure this out I'd appreciate it anyway.
jfang is a CM, so his AoE/Cone works GREAT!!!!!!
You are correct on voicing this concern but I believe the Cone to be consistent among profs.....of course if we are to be crowd control and the experts at the Cone Effect, then we need to do it better than all other profs....
And I only use the Cone Effect Specials from 40-50m
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
However, Keldarin's response as it related to CM's and their current abilities as they stand right now was: they're not overpowered, they're working as intended and don't need a nerf.
Bottom line: the problem is one of lack of defenses/counters against any and all forms of DOT poison/disease regardless of the source, (fire already has a solution similar now with the introduction of the doctor fire blankets, and bleeds can already be dealt with by medics/docs), not a problem necessitating a major CM nerf.
Message Edited by TalonKarrdeTN on 06-24-2004 10:34 AM
TAfirehawk wrote:
OK.....Mr. CM.....so sad that you have such a horrible time in this game.....
/stirpot
/bonk TAfirehawk
Now your just taunting me. Oh and...
/bonk TAfirehawk
For bumping your post count.
And to be clear, I did *not* say that the area of effect of combat medic poisons is too small. I happen to think they are fine. I also did *not* say they were ineffective in PvE combat. I happen to think that is fine as well.
I was just commenting that I also think AoE/cone attacks are fine as well, and the area of effect of them should not be substantially changed. Maybe reduce the AoE of non-carbineers if you are concerned with carbineers needing some edge of area attacks (which I don't really think we should do mind you), but I think the existing range of AoE attacks is fine and should not be substantially changed.
9,742 more to go...
Edit: Moved my incidentally to a new post for visibility's sake (although I know I'll be accused of post bumping... )
Message Edited by jfang on 06-24-2004 12:55 PM
jfang wrote:
Not to mention if you are spraying your gun in a 90 degree angle, you won't really shouldn't be able to hit very much with any accuracy or concentration of fire.
I'd have no problem withan accuracy reduction as a result of a wider cone. That would balance out the benefit of it at least somewhat, but I still want a wider cone regardless.And in a situation like what I was talking about above as it reflects on this comment, itshould all dependon how far you are from your group of targets. If they're spread out and all at 40-50 meters or greaterfrom you, then I agree wholeheartedly with this statement above and the potential accuracy reduction amount should be much greater the further the distance. I understand the issues you raise, but this and other ways can be introduced to balance it out....the fact still remains that the cone needs to be considerably wider than it is at present.
A combat medic poison with a 16m radius affects: 16m * 16m * 3.14 = 793 square m's
Note, I think that "m" is some abstract measurement in the SWG universe, and should not be taken to be "meters".
9,741 more to go...
jfang wrote:
Incidentally, just to run some numbers, ifyou gave a 90 degree area of effect to carbineers they would affect: 64m * 64m * 3.14 / 4 = 3215 square m's
A combat medic poison with a 16m radius affects: 16m * 16m * 3.14 = 793 square m's
That's a totally apples to oranges comparison though. Maybe 90 degrees might be *too* wide, I'll grant you that can maybe be argued, but let's not go comparing cone AoE's from a gun to a spherical AoE from a CM poison pack, especially if you introduce PvP into the mixwith the 75% reduction to all damage exceptfor what DOT's can do.