Carbineer Archive
Thread: Nova/TA & others RE: counterattack & combat balance threads
Page 1 of 4
TalonKarrdeTN
Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:33 pm
#1
Before I go further, just wanted to say thanks esp. to nova and TA as well as other guys like jfang who regularly post here, for all the work you do and info you provide to help others regarding the carbineer profession. I've only been a lurker in this particular forum, but I was in beta and did carbineer there, and my launch character, a wookiee, was long working on carbineer on the side as well for a mix in of combat while serving my primary role as an architect which kept me pretty busy. As such I'd never really gotten *serious* into combat as far as carbs go, and reading the info you guys provide here has been invaluable, as I love both the weapons and the profession in general, have since beta which is why at least in some form I stuck with it (although I didn't actually master it on Tib until a few months back, only to later drop it to eventually move it over to my now-main human character as part of an all-combat template).
At any rate, I was a Fan Fest attendee, and after reading a few threads here today, just wanted to toss a few things out there as I attended all three of the forums related specifically with combat (melee/ranged and the 'combateers' forum which pretty much encompassed the whole enchilada). In at least two of these, Dave White (Keldarin) was one of the panel members, and he seems to be one of the main guys overseeing the prelim work on what they want to accomplish with the combat balance. First of all, all the jokes and kidding aside otherwise, they *know* counterattack doesn't work as intended. The issue was brought up and Keldarin himself admitted it's not working as originally intended. It's one of many things they're going to look at when all the Jedi/FS stuff is finally out of the way and they can seriously work on the combat revamp. Now...when this was stated and discussed, I wasn't sure based on what I heard if they plan on just fixing it to work as everyone thinks it should work or if they were going to examine the concept's viability in terms of carbineers or not....I may be confusing you guys by saying that but my memory of what exactly was said fails me and all I really retained from that issue was a sense of 'up in the air' about what will and won't be around that exists now in general across the boards for all professions, as they plan on almost totally rebuilding a whole new system from the ground up. But at any rate, the counterattack issue *is* something they're aware of. We'll see what ends up happening on that front.
What I can say on a positive front is that they also realize that even with the great fixes that went in for carbs a few publishes ago, they realize carbs and I think pikes also particularly are two of the most suffering combat professions on a number of angles in the current combat system and that they'd definitely be 'getting some love' while other professions would likely end up being toned down a notch or two (can we say rifleman?). Some of you may have already read/heard some of this elsewhere from other people that were at FF, and if so, my apologies for posting info you already know, but here's the overall basics of what I know from what Keldarin and others said that weekend that in some cases will hopefullly also answer a few questions I read in a couple other threads here (and anyone else that went that sees something I may post in error, please, do correct me):
- Unless I'm remembering wrong on this, I"m pretty sure it was stated that both melee *and* ranged mitigation will be going away.
- Once the combat revamp is in place, defensive caps will also be going away, but they will work in such a way that even stacking majorly will not make someone invulnerable or nigh-invulernable. The example given is that say if you stack dodge, from points 1-70 you'll see a major increase in this ability, but from points 70 onward you'll see a basic 'law of diminishing returns'....i.e., you'll still be increasing your dodge ability, but at 140 you wouldn't have double the ability of someone with 70 dodge.Keep in mind...70 isn't some magic number so far as I know, I took it as simply some hypothetical number thrown out on the fly, so don't take the numbers here as any hard cold fact.
- Weapon speed will be totally, totally different from the way its done now. Pistols will be fast/quick lower damage, carbines will be midrange on both speed and power, and rifles will be high damage but slow as intended. Even with speed modifiers from your given profession, it will be within a certain range *for* your profession which makes sense, you won't see rifles for example firing at insane speeds any longer.
- Mind will be healable post-revamp, which helps carbineers as much as anyone since outside scatter or a few other 'random pool' specials there's no way currently for us to target the mind.
- Not just combat professions, but also weapons and armor and basically anything connected to combat will be looked at and rebalanced as a part of this process. Buffs as well. And all changes are supposed to be retroactive on any existing items as well. Basically this means the days of 80+% kinetic/energy/etc composite and 2000+ point buffs are numbered is the way I took it. This sounds rough on the front end, but the fact that it will happen to everyone equally won't make it seem quite as bad as it sounds at first, especially given that it was also said when asked....
- High end content in particular would be rebalanced as well to fall in line with the new numbers....so don't instantly start panicking at the thought of "how am I going to survive in the Corvette/DWB/Geo caves/etc?" *g*
- This one also affects carbineers in particular, since it's not only helping us but changing things across the board for everyone, but no longer will specials cause damage to your primary HAM bars. Asbest as I understand it, what will happen is that your primary HAM bars at any given moment (this includes possible wounds, damage from poison or just basic damage in general, as well as buffs on the positive side) will be 'mirrored' in a sense, and your special action cost will draw from the mirrored pools. The costs may be raised from what they are now though, but then these mirrored pools are supposed to also regen relatively quickly too. The bottom line here is that combat won't be just a mindless buff-enhanced spam-fest necessarily of whatever the best special is, and will introduce much more tactics into the equation of when to use what special where and how much, etc.
- That last point should underscore and summarize everything they intend to do....the key words overall were 'balance' and 'tactics'. It finally made sense to me why TH and others kept throwing out a basic answer of 'wait till the combat balance', because they really are going to recreate a whole new system pretty much from the ground up, do the best job they can to balance every single profession out where no one combat profession significantly outclasses another, and do everything in their power to make combat in SWG a thing of well thought out tactics rather than just incessant mindless spamming of whatever is your profession's potential "I win" button.
I hope no one gets me wrong here if you're one of the people who is disgruntled at the devs for whatever your personal beef is....I have no personal connection to any of them and there have been things since beta onward I haven't liked about this game or that frustrates me to no end. I'm not trying to be a schill when I say this and sound positive about it all, but....I came away very impressed at least by the potential of pretty much everything I heard regarding the combat system and their intentions at least with the revamp. Remains to be seen what the final product will look like just because of the simple fact of so many voices all screaming from different angles/directions of what they want and so many different people may want/think they want different things....but still, I feel very positive about the direction they're heading at least at this point. And carbineers are very much in their minds and in the mix on things. One last thing I will add which may or may not be popular here, but I did personally request to two different devs (one of which was JustG/Gary Gattis who along with Hayden/Shug asked to cut in front of me at the banquet due to time constraints with their involvement with things that evening) that one of my personal pet peeves, the cone on the carbineer AoE attacks, be widened considerably over what it is now when everything is looked at. Right now it's a pain and a chore to get things lined up just right to hit multiple targets at leastfor me, and I think you should have a full 90-degree cone to work with, 45 degrees in either direction from center. Who knows whether that thought is retained, but at least I made a point to get the notion out there. 
Anyone with any questions, feel free to ask, and I'll answer as best I can remember, but I'll tell you right now I'm nowhere near as knowledgable or technical in approach to the current system as nova, TA and others here are, so I'm not sure how much any answer I may give will sit with you. Also I'm by no means trying to come across as some know-it-all in general here, just trying to help share info I did glean from being at FF with other fellow lovers of a profession I hold dear.
jfang
Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:32 pm
#2
Whew. Very nice. I like reading information about the fan fest.
Diminishing returns is good. I rather dislike hard caps. They feel like artificial hack fixes to system design problems, and also make me feel like there is a superior template (you canpurchase 125 dodge for x sp, 125 counterattack for y sp, etc...). I guess SOE is returning back to EQ style abilities, (which is fine because EQ works rather well).
I do like the idea of each profession havinga speed bracket. Something like a "1 second speed cap for pistoleers, 2 seconds for carbineers, 4 for riflemen". If nothing else, it will help prevent unforseen balance issues between professions later. It won't stop them, but will help reduce one degree of freedom for the "exceptionally intelligent player" to take advantage of.
Retroactive changing of buffs and armor, good idea as well. No more "pre-nerf FWG5, I mean composite for 5 million" cries I guess. I imagine there is going to be a lot of fallout from that though...
It's premature to think about, but I hope they give professions ways to target these special bars (should we just call them mana bars?). So, for example, carbineers fire a lot of actionshot2's to slow the special attack abilities of the opponents... As long as you can not incap from the special bars emptying, I think if balanced well (very important to note it needs to be balanced) it would be a great strategic function to be able to decide between hurting the opponent and imparing the opponent's abilities.
Thanks for the information. If only we could give the devs to give meaningful information like this in the 19 answers posts...
By the way, giving devs cuts in line then using the opportunity to voice your opinions about the game, well done. I'm not sure I would have used that "complain to dev free" card in that manner (being relatively happy with the area of effect myself), but nice thinking.
Oh, and did any dev let slip anything about Firehawk?
9,747 more to go...
Bennyboy4308
Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:37 pm
#3
Wow I like it alot. Making it so defenses make a good difference early but diminishes is a great idea. I'm just curious if having BH for speed will make a large difference, and how the accuracy will be affected. Thanks alot. This is great info. Your the man/wookie.
EisMan_Buckeye
Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:33 pm
#4
Great post.
If I may add a thought on the new HAM costs... I remember a long time ago, a dev decribed what they wanted battle to be like... Quick, get in and get out bursts of firefights. For example... You engage in combat, you spam some specials which in turn deplete your new "special ability" bars... you fall back to regen them... you jump back into battle. So, HAM costs are still relatively high, so if you spam a bunch of specials, you will deplete your ability bars faster, but you can fall back without fearing getting killed in one shotdue to low HAM (because the new ability bars are not attackable).They regen real fast, so you can then jump back in and do it again. It is a way of limiting your offensive ability, without putting you in a compromising postion defesively. If you choose to use up your ability real fast, you can do so and still take as much damage as someone that has full ability left. Or you can moderate the specials, and pace yourself. It should make for much more interesting battles, battles that will require thought and strategy (woo hoo, most carbineers are used to that allready! 
)
)Also, I heard something about the speed changes not only affecting relaod speed on specials, but running speed as well. For example (hypothetical), a commado carrying a big flamethrower will not be able to run as fast as a pistoleer carrying a pistol. Sounds cool and actually makes sense to me.
TAfirehawk
Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:02 am
#5
Excelllent report. This matches with the other reports from FanFest that I have read.
Of course everything the Devs say is subject to change.....let us not forget that 
And 90% of the Combat Problems can be fixed by nerfing armor, buffs, and firing speed.......pretty simple things to do IMO.....
Message Edited by TAfirehawk on 06-24-2004 09:03 AM
MasterTexiria
Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:33 am
#6
Great post! I really think this has been one of the best non JTLS FF posts.
Like TA I think that nerfing armor, buffs, speeds ( especially those 2 professions whose names I won't mention but they are the mind killers just like fear ), But also I think other armors should be balanced so that there isn't just one type of PvP armor becuase that still becomes very boring and repetitive.
Rorenikibi
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:26 am
#7
Forgetting the poisons, or are we still drugged from their effects?
TAfirehawk wrote:
Excelllent report. This matches with the other reports from FanFest that I have read.
Of course everything the Devs say is subject to change.....let us not forget that
And 90% of the Combat Problems can be fixed by nerfing armor, buffs, and firing speed.......pretty simple things to do IMO.....
Message Edited by TAfirehawk on 06-24-2004 09:03 AM
TalonKarrdeTN
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:46 am
#8
Thanks for all the positive feedback guys
jfang wrote:
Retroactive changing of buffs and armor, good idea as well. No more "pre-nerf FWG5, I mean composite for 5 million" cries I guess. I imagine there is going to be a lot of fallout from that though...
Weapons as well, just to make sure that's clarified as well. Another thing that was mentioned was that weapon certs would possibly be redone such that master level weapons would only be able to be used by a master. However, there might be, say, 2 different versions of it. Hate to keep pointing out rifles as an example but that was a profession used in examples alot....don't know if that's just a foreshadowing omen of things to come or not
jfang wrote:
It's premature to think about, but I hope they give professions ways to target these special bars (should we just call them mana bars?). So, for example, carbineers fire a lot of actionshot2's to slow the special attack abilities of the opponents... As long as you can not incap from the special bars emptying, I think if balanced well (very important to note it needs to be balanced) it would be a great strategic function to be able to decide between hurting the opponent and imparing the opponent's abilities.
I'm not saying it's something that won't end up in there, especially if such a suggestion gets thrown out during the phase they work on it, they like the idea and decide to implement it, or even saying that it's not an idea they already have and just wasn't mentioned, but....no, I didn't hear anything said along those lines or to indicate that this would be possible.However, one thing I did forget to add is that thetargeted pool specific specials that are native to each profession, while they'll likely still be in place, will change somewhat in the way they function. Basically, say withbodyshot for pistols for example, you'll be substantially increasing your chance of your shots landing on the torso/arms area, but at the same time, your overall accuracy rate will be reduced when'focusing' in this way as opposed to your normal default firing mode. As far as incapping though, no.....theglory days of "I can kill me faster than you can kill me" we carbineers have grown to love will come to anend unfortunately.
jfang wrote:
By the way, giving devs cuts in line then using the opportunity to voice your opinions about the game, well done. I'm not sure I would have used that "complain to dev free" card in that manner (being relatively happy with the area of effect myself), but nice thinking.
Oh, and did any dev let slip anything about Firehawk?
In all honesty, I don't think you necessarily would have felt that way in my shoes unless your personal beef/issue you have in mind is something so specific to carbines and even then something so specific and person so as to be something that hadn't/wasn't already stated at some point over that 2-day period, as the cone issue with me was. Trust me, the devs got a veritable earful over that period of every major issue you typically see players disgruntled about on the boards here spanning all professions and game mechanics. And to their credit, they all took it in stride well. Again, I don't want to come off as an arbitrary arse-kisser of the devs, but I genuinely think they got as much out of Fan Fest and the ability to see and hear some of these things communicated up close and personal in a more personal way in which open dialogue at least to some extent could occur as those of us as players who attended did if not moreso. Having gotten the opportunity to spend even a few brief minutes with about 3-4 of these guys in person and talk about issues, I can honestly say that these guys aren't asshats who don't give a flip about the players or the game or lack a love of Star Wars even. They *are* however human beings who just like the rest of us do make mistakes and are bound by the same rules of life as we are as far as time, the need for food and sleep on occasion, not to mention a healthy break/vacation from their job every now and then to maintain their drive, focus, and sanity.
Oh, and didn't hear anything about Firehawk from any devs, no. Is he infamous for some reason I'm unaware of within the inner circle? *grin*
TAfirehawk
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:51 am
#9
FIREHAWK is a reward EE3 with killer stats for the first poster to 10,000 posts on the Carbineer Forum.....
Bennyboy4308
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:52 am
#10
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
Keldarin said at novice rifle for example you might see a kind of lesser/dumbed down version of the T-21, but the master level/high end/high powered version would only be able to be wielded and used by a master.
I hope you mean moving the current T21 up to master not making a more powerful one? Its not like there are many dabbling riflemen. In fact, non-master rifleman is the worst combat profession. Once you hit master though... Devs wouldn't be that daft to make T21s better though.... please?
TalonKarrdeTN
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:58 am
#11
EisMan_Buckeye wrote:
Also, I heard something about the speed changes not only affecting relaod speed on specials, but running speed as well. For example (hypothetical), a commado carrying a big flamethrower will not be able to run as fast as a pistoleer carrying a pistol. Sounds cool and actually makes sense to me.
Thanks for reminding me of this. Yes, this was definitely stated by Keldarin....actually two things along this line, one of which being equipping/unequipping/changing weapons (or armor I'm assuming as well) would be an action added to the combat queue and thus a small delay interjected into the middle of things. While I've read where some people absolutely hate this idea, I personally am all for it. The ones who typically balk at the idea are the same ones who do things like macro the ability to suit/desuit from their armor instantly, which really makes no sense whatsoever as far as I'm concerned. Sure, it gives you an advantage in certain situations, but realistically speaking no one should be able to insta-don or insta-store a full suit of armor like that. Same thing for a weapon, if you switch up weapons it's realistically going to take you a second or two to do it effectively without just dropping one on the ground and losing it. The whole idea here again is to introduce tactics and strategy into the mix as much as possible. Anyway, the idea you bring up here was also mentioned, yes....that someone carrying around a heavy weapon in particular is naturally not going to be able to run as fast and/or in full stride with it equipped as they can when it's stored. This was brought up as a way to try and bring some variance into the running speeds because currently, everyone runs the same speed if all things are equal. Sure you have burstrun, but so does the other guy unless he's spent it already. At the very least it shows that they're really trying to think about all these things much more indepth than they currently exist now, and I think that's a positive and healthy thing for the future of the game.
TalonKarrdeTN
Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:04 am
#12
TAfirehawk wrote:
Of course everything the Devs say is subject to change.....let us not forget that
That goes without saying with any changes, but that's always due to the limitations of time, the technology they have to work with, and the manpower at their disposal. I do agree that they have needed to get better about saying things prematurely before having to take it back later, but I also think they have improved on that too over the last few months. Still though, the genuineness of their intentions was very evident to me at least. Again, we'll see what comes out in the wash once the several hundred thousand voices get thrown into the equation during the process before the combat revamp pub goes out. I think if they stick to their guns on many of these core issues though, it sounds like they have the right approach so far.
jfang
Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:05 am
#13
TalonKarrdeTN wrote:
jfang wrote:
By the way, giving devs cuts in line then using the opportunity to voice your opinions about the game, well done. I'm not sure I would have used that "complain to dev free" card in that manner (being relatively happy with the area of effect myself), but nice thinking.
Oh, and did any dev let slip anything about Firehawk?
In all honesty, I don't think you necessarily would have felt that way in my shoes unless your personal beef/issue you have in mind is something so specific to carbines and even then something so specific and person so as to be something that hadn't/wasn't already stated at some point over that 2-day period, as the cone issue with me was
Oh, and didn't hear anything about Firehawk from any devs, no. Is he infamous for some reason I'm unaware of within the inner circle? *grin*
I wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. Given circumstances, almost anybody would have yielded to the devs... And while happening to be next to them mentioning a personal annoyance with game mechanics while next to a dev is only natural. I was saying this facetiously, although the tone may not have come across well. Sorry if it didn't.
And as mentioned, I wasn't asking about "TAfirehawk", I was asking about "Firehawk"... But I guess the devs are being closed mouthed about it...
/emote goes to look up the old post before it is lost to the annuals of archives...
9,744 more to go...
Page 1 of 4