Carbineer Archive
Thread: New patch = new nerf...
No profession can stand on it's own. None. That's why you combine professions.
If you are a carbineer + doc, TKA, pistoleer, whatever, you are playing the professions right.
If you are a carbineer + nothing, you are half useless.
If you are a carbineer + crafter, you are generally using your carbine for self-defense and PvE, or when you go out with your guild.
It'll take some time before they fix the classes. Melee got priority because melee SUCKED in the beginning. Counterattack was just fixed as was dodge and block and d's in generalfor ranged (except BH) upped. Rifleman can now use surprise shot on mobs without the whole mob except their target flocking to them. Pistoleer specials like disarming shot 1 and 2 don't work, neither is the PBA2 an area effect. In good time the Beta 3 game we're playing will be fixed, and carbineer specials that don't work will be working.
-- Ypi
Ypiana wrote:
No profession can stand on it's own. None. That's why you combine professions.
If you are a carbineer + doc, TKA, pistoleer, whatever, you are playing the professions right.
If you are a carbineer + nothing, you are half useless.
If you are a carbineer + crafter, you are generally using your carbine for self-defense and PvE, or when you go out with your guild.
It'll take some time before they fix the classes. Melee got priority because melee SUCKED in the beginning. Counterattack was just fixed as was dodge and block and d's in generalfor ranged (except BH) upped. Rifleman can now use surprise shot on mobs without the whole mob except their target flocking to them. Pistoleer specials like disarming shot 1 and 2 don't work, neither is the PBA2 an area effect. In good time the Beta 3 game we're playing will be fixed, and carbineer specials that don't work will be working.
-- Ypi
Again, clear, concise and non-flame:
Ypi, here's our problem: when evenly matched, Carbineers are outclassed. Not sometimes, not most of the time, EVERY TIME. If we were only murdered when we dipped into a Pistoleer's optimum ranges, or a Rifleman's, and we held our own at mid-range like we're supposed to, we wouldn't bitch. However, pistols have a carbine's range and then some. Rifles get summed up in two words: mind damage. Carbines don't do much more than kill the person using it. Say for example, a Master Pistoleer and a Master Carbineer with Novice Medic and some crafting profession for the rest of the skill points duke it out. Both have advanced stim b's. When fighting around that 5-22m mark, a Pistoleer should win. When fighting around that 25-50m mark, a Carbineer should win. That doesn't happen. We just want balance, so we can fight as we're supposed to.
No one playing the game just stuck with carbineer only. I would love to meet a Carbineer that just got Master, and left the rest of their skill points alone. If someone is an Armorsmith by trade, and picked up Carbineer for self-defense, it's highly likely that they're posting in the Armorsmith forum. The Carbineers here are combat-oriented, and well aware with the problems we have. Everyone dabbles, this we know. Unfortunately, we're reduced to dabbling in specific professions to fire the gun. That Carbineer / TKA combination is a sweet class............on paper. Run that combo in-game, dump 3 Full Auto Single 2's onto the fire queue, and those super defenses become null and void as you effectively slit your own wrist. We're not trying to be the uber mankilling class. Honestly though, a Rifleman doesn't have to break out the tat sunburns, or the neutron pixie, JUST TO FIRE A FEW SPECIALS. Pistoleers, same. If the specials worked as they were supposed to, we might even take the HAM costs. Specials don't work either though. If you're not a Doctor or dabbled into BH, you've got no business being a Carbineer. That simple.
cloakanddagger wrote:
We're not trying to be the uber mankilling class. Honestly though, a Rifleman doesn't have to break out the tat sunburns, or the neutron pixie, JUST TO FIRE A FEW SPECIALS. Pistoleers, same.
Wrong, wrong wrong.
As pistoleer at speed cap my action would bottom out in under 20 shots. When I am fighting pistoleers with carbine I use the action bleed and legshot2 and they help me kill themselves.
Pick up a T21 and fire headshot3. Woah! You just lost 100 mind.
All the good PvP'ers and players KNOW you have to play buffed to be effective. I get food buff, entertainer buff, doctor buff everytime I play.
I'm a carbine user. 3/4/4/4 bh 0/0/1/2 carbineer and novice medic. I don't even have novice pistol, because it's a popgun compared to what I can do with the carbine.
Any rifleman who can actually kill things buffs their mind before they fire the T21. There is a buff exploit for mind - you listen to entertainer and watch dancer, consume muon gold, consume bivoli (mind food) and then after that you /stopwatch. Since your mind was boosted from bivoli and the muon to about 2000 and secondaries close to 1000, your mind goes to 4000 and secondaries to almost 2000. Then you lose the food and spice and mind goes to 3000 and secondaries to 1500. THEN you crank off master headshot.
You MUST be buffed to play effectively with any class.
For pistol I used to do 2 tat sunburns. That was enough to keep action regenerating near full. For carbine I eat two ryshcates and breath-of-heaven. If I am unarmored the specials cost 0 Ham, and if I am in injured I heal myself for 0 mind cost. If I am armored no carbine special exceeds -29 ham and a stim-b use costs -13 mind.
Yes carbine requires more food than pistol to keep the HAM down but the damage output of a carbine is far in excess of a pistol.
The developers will NEVER drop carbine costs, or those for rile or pistol either.
The HAM costs for weapons are well-balanced. If you want more power or use a powerful shot it's going to cost you.
-- Ypi
/agree Ypiana,
I silently enjoy my master doc/3402 carabinier, which solos so many things no other except CHs or FD smugglerscan and can smoke most of the other ranged classes 1 on 1 in PvP, while so many people cry loudly about this "gimped" class.
I do not agree with most of the whines here, which are very nearsighted. And after all, this huge amount of whines might entice SoE into debugging carabiniers faster, so even if they are overdone they are useful.
If you want to experimenttrue carabinier power, buy a set of Dbuffs, don your suit of composite armor ( hotkeyed of course ), stock some stims, hotkey yourrhyscat, breath of heaven and muongold, and sololarge rebel bases, force initiates, PvP !
Carabiniers are less immediately rewarding than pistoleers, but once you have the good template and preparation, it is as good ( if not better ) as any other ranged profession.
I can answer this, Mogbert! My medic spec is 3-3-4-0. I am almost Master CH & Master Carbineer. It's the Pharm column that lets you use the stim c's and some d's. I found crates of stim c's that heal for over 850 with 38 charges each. I've seen heals of over 2000 on one of my pets. Pharm 4 allows you to use Med use 40 stimpacks. I never fail to heal myself or a guildmate fully in just one heal, no matter how far down our HAMs are.
As for the original post...as I understand it, with the introduction of mounts the Dev's wanted to install an anti-kiting code. It's affected bleeds, but more importantly it affected CM poison and disease too! If you PvP at all, the CM are a very dangerious class. A friend and fellow guildmate told me in a discussion about these nerfs, that even more was needed... because he thought the CM were still too overpowering.
So changing our bleed to compensate for the CM "adjustments" is a good tradeoff, imo.
nuspirit23 wrote:
I can answer this, Mogbert! My medic spec is 3-3-4-0. I am almost Master CH & Master Carbineer. It's the Pharm column that lets you use the stim c's and some d's. I found crates of stim c's that heal for over 850 with 38 charges each. I've seen heals of over 2000 on one of my pets. Pharm 4 allows you to use Med use 40 stimpacks. I never fail to heal myself or a guildmate fully in just one heal, no matter how far down our HAMs are.
As for the original post...as I understand it, with the introduction of mounts the Dev's wanted to install an anti-kiting code. It's affected bleeds, but more importantly it affected CM poison and disease too! If you PvP at all, the CM are a very dangerious class. A friend and fellow guildmate told me in a discussion about these nerfs, that even more was needed... because he thought the CM were still too overpowering.
So changing our bleed to compensate for the CM "adjustments" is a good tradeoff, imo.
Hunting holos the bleed change has helped tremendously. I hunt the FS guys on Dantooine. The problem is some of them (especially the ones without titles) can hit you for 3600+ in any pool from 64 meters. Without pets my tactic has always been to get to max range, lay on a bleed, run back out of their range, repeat. BUT the tricky part is you can bleed them to death = no loot. So when you judged they are about to die, which can be hard because the no-title guys have 80% resists, you have to gun them down. But one shot and you're dead. Now I can bleed action down to 1, then charge with a legshot2 and get the loot.
-- Ypi
I'll confirm that the bleed change has actually been pretty good to me. You can safely warning shot something that has almost bled to death without fear that it will run out of range and die leaving you with no loot and no xp.
I don't agree that the HAM costs are appropriate. The rate of fire of carbines is very low, especially on the primary weapon of choice, the laser carb which has typical speeds of 3.6 - 3.8. Combined with the frequent need to heal due to suicide HAM costs and the lowest speed mods of the elite ranged professions the Damage over Time of the carbine is weak even though single shots examined out of context may appear to be very potent. Common combat with liberal use of crippleshot (a very slow attack)requires healing after every 3-5 moves which cuts into both your status change opportunities and your DoT a lot, and failure to get a well timed heal in leads to excessive cloning.
I like to surf around the other boards and see what everybody's complaining about.. I'm a BH on one server, and a Smuggler/Pistoleer on another...
And I can safely say Carbineer has a LOT to complain about. They are the most underpowered ranged combat profession, even though it doesn't cost much to be one. (Same as pistoleer.. but pistoleer will beat a Master Carbineer hands down) Hell a smuggler could beat a Master Carbineer, and they don't get any pistol skill mods.
Good luck guys, hope ya get fixed... 
DECarbineer wrote:
The thing the buggs me most is that you can get a pistol with 510 max damage and speed 0.7 (1 sec is the cap thou) with one good krayt tissue. They nerfed that now but it will take month till they are decayed. So a pistolier can make the same damage or more in halft the time or less.
I use a 450 damage laser carbine what's 2 second speed no powerup, just damage slice. I outdamage every single class I met, If I use a 33% powerup, I get a 600 damage carbine with AP 2 that's +50% more damage. and when I scatter shot 2 I do 5k damage normally, over 8-9k if I fire knockdown the target, and since I have +110 speed all my special is at 1 second, all I need is use 2 ryshcake and 1 breath of heaven, then all my special become free, each ryshcake I brought have 12 use, I brought 2 crate of 25 ryshcake 50x12, and breath of heaven is 22 use, I brought 4 crate of 25, that's 100x22.. all the food only cost me around 350k.
In pve, only class could kill faster than me is probably commando due to their flamethrower special can goes throughresistance and armor, but on any critter that's ar 1 or less, I outdamage commando as well.
after patch Instead soloing kunga mission, which doesn't exist, I instead run nym/pirate mission on lok, which are CL 106 for me, 3 fire knockdown and 5 scatter, 1 npc down.. i get 5k carbine xp, my currently template is
BH 0/0/3/0, carbineer 4/3/0/3, also I have medic 2/0/0/0, the only tip with carbineer, get a pet if you want to solo, since I'm an imperial. I use at-st, I can outdamage both my at-st at same time with a carbine currently I have around 20 skills point left since I need make it to master carbineer.
Ypiana wrote:
Wrong, wrong wrong.
As pistoleer at speed cap my action would bottom out in under 20 shots. When I am fighting pistoleers with carbine I use the action bleed and legshot2 and they help me kill themselves.
Pick up a T21 and fire headshot3. Woah! You just lost 100 mind.
All the good PvP'ers and players KNOW you have to play buffed to be effective. I get food buff, entertainer buff, doctor buff everytime I play.
I'm a carbine user. 3/4/4/4 bh 0/0/1/2 carbineer and novice medic. I don't even have novice pistol, because it's a popgun compared to what I can do with the carbine.
Any rifleman who can actually kill things buffs their mind before they fire the T21. There is a buff exploit for mind - you listen to entertainer and watch dancer, consume muon gold, consume bivoli (mind food) and then after that you /stopwatch. Since your mind was boosted from bivoli and the muon to about 2000 and secondaries close to 1000, your mind goes to 4000 and secondaries to almost 2000. Then you lose the food and spice and mind goes to 3000 and secondaries to 1500. THEN you crank off master headshot.
You MUST be buffed to play effectively with any class.
Yes carbine requires more food than pistol to keep the HAM down but the damage output of a carbine is far in excess of a pistol.
The developers will NEVER drop carbine costs, or those for rile or pistol either.
The HAM costs for weapons are well-balanced. If you want more power or use a powerful shot it's going to cost you.
-- Ypi
Ypi, with all due respect, you're not fighting from our level. That BH line you took makes your carbine worth something. I know, I used to have it too. Being a carbine user however, does not make you a Carbineer! As a Pistoleer at the speed cap, you dropped all your action in under 20 shots. When I said a few specials, I meant just that. As A Carbineer without the speed cap (and can't hit the cap unless I dabble in BH), I drop my action in less than 8 shots, guaranteed. You don't have to preach tactics to me, as the action damage focus is half the reason I took Carbineer. Again with all due respect, 0/0/1/2 Carbineer means that you don't know what we're talking about. 3/4/4/4 BH really kills your argument. You're a Bounty Hunter, not a Carbineer, and that Bounty line makes you a mass murderer in 1/3rd of the carbine xp. When I had my bounty line, I did enough damage to make it worth my while in PvE, as well as hang with any self-respecting class in PvP. HAM costs weren't as big a deal, because my shots were more effective. As a Carbineer though, it just isn't happening, and I see why, as do most other Carbineers.
Concerning the rifleman who drops 100 mind to fire a headshot 3, I don't see the complaint. First things first, that mindshot will connect for around 500 damage to mind, if we're talking Master. 2 or 3 of those means that you're gonna die pretty fast. I believe Masters hit the 1 second cap too, unless they added the speedcaps in the new patch. If they didn't hit mind, I'd see your point. Since they do, it makes the class pretty effective for that HAM cost. Now, compare that to the 141 HAM I drop to fire Full Auto Single 2. Headshot3, Full Auto Single 2. Hmmmmm. Which would you rather be using?
Tell me again how a carbine's damage output far exceeds that of a pistol. Is it the damage per second invoked? Nah, that can't be it. Is it because a carbine shoots faster in general? Don't see that one either. Is it because the carbines are easier to make with the components and krayt tissues? Whoops, lost again. Hell, even the Weaponsmiths complain about the low quality of carbines compared to the other weapons! Doesn't that say something?
Oh, and anyone that had Master Doctor or something before taking up Carbineer, also can't relate. Take a day off from the buffs and watch the kamikaze begin. Heal yourself, but don't use the buffs, and you'll see what we mean. Pick up a pistol after you do that, no buffs, and compare. Rifles are much closer to us HAM wise, but they hit mind. Unhealable=effective. All that time you spent knocking down that oh-so-precious action with a carbine goes away with one well-placed advanced stim b.........and we're just as half dead as the riflemen after firing our shots.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't get buffed before a battle. I'm saying we shouldn't HAVE to. I'm climbing Doctor, and whenever I can find a Doc, I get my extras. Food, entertainer, blah blah blah, I do that too. That's just smart. I fight non-buffed opponents non-buffed myself, and get murdered. I ask them their skills after the fact, and I have to wonder what happened. Then I remember. I'm a Carbineer.
On with the struggle, folks.
cloakanddagger wrote:
I'm not saying that we shouldn't get buffed before a battle. I'm saying we shouldn't HAVE to. I'm climbing Doctor, and whenever I can find a Doc, I get my extras. Food, entertainer, blah blah blah, I do that too. That's just smart. I fight non-buffed opponents non-buffed myself, and get murdered. I ask them their skills after the fact, and I have to wonder what happened. Then I remember. I'm a Carbineer.
On with the struggle, folks.
I will be at the speed cap for carbines when I am master because by then I will have a +6 carbine speed SEA - minimum.That means when I hit master carbineer I'll be at the speed cap. When I'm master carbineer I'll be spamming carbine specials as fast as I am now. I just dropped BH LLC line because Carbine is far more effective at this point with my speed bonus from BH, and I'm PvP'ing while finishing invest. 4. Now I'm at 0/0/3/3 carbine and will take the last counterinsurgency line. After I hit master BH I'll drop the BH pistol line and go carbine 0/0/4/3 until I slay enough Jedi to switch to master carbineer. So, since I'll be at the speed cap as master, and I have no problem with SOE putting Master Carbineer up to the speed cap, I think I'm pretty free to talk about carbines.
As far as HAM costs not having to cost, why not? You are putting out more damage, so you have to have a negative modifier in the name of balance. Carbine doing less damage than pistol? No way. No way in Hade is that true in any sense of the word. What pistol shot is going to roll for 3000 points of damage? Just one - last ditch assault. How about this:What pistol can do consistent 1000 points of damage per second on7 targets simultaneously? What pistol can knock a target - even an ATST down, over, and over. What pistol can do action bleeds for 1000 points on mobs?I was master pistoleer, expert BH at one point, so I know a bit about pisols.Dirge and I on Starsider whipe out mobs faster than you can blink. He's carbineer 4/4/3/3 | master doc. If you want to see what two people with carbines can do, make a char on Starsider and tag along. You will be highly impressed. When my HAM costs are zero after I eat food and I spam fullautoarea, things disintegrate. So this 1000 words stuff is great, but if anyone herewants a picture ofwhy carbines DON'T suck, come onto Starsider and Dirge and I will educate you.
In PvEI use 0 BH specialsunless I'm fighting NPCs, then I use confusion shot for the dizzy. Underhand shot costs a lot more ham than charge shot. Also the charge shot can be used over, and over. In PvE I use fullautoarea1, fullautosingle2, and burst shot 2, plus the action bleeds and legshot2. Also I counterattack, which is something BHs don't do. In fact BHs get zero defense mods except for +7 ranged defense at master. PvP I use charge shot / confusion shot / burstshot. If it's a long-range fight I'll use chargeshot followed by actionshot1 and 2.If you apply bleeds on a KD'd target the bleeds are way bigger. Also stun your targets and then switch to burst shot, uses less ham that way.
I realize chargeshot2 and supression fire2 aren't working, and carbine doesn't hit speed cap. But there are ways around the speed cap: SEAs, sliced weapons with speed powerups, etc. Carbine puts out so much more damage than a pistol that I can't even look at a pistol anymore. Dirge and I always say how we hope no one ever finds out about carbines but stick to pistols. Oh yeah, and the most bad-ass PvP guild on Starsider, FATAL, had its leader and most of its troops use a certain weapon. Um, guess what? Carbines. Many of their docs and combat medics and their leader had them. A group of people with carbines can simply slaughter a group of people with pistols.
And like I said, come to Starsider if you want to see carbines ROCK AND ROLL, FULL AUTO at the cyclic rate until the barrels melt. We'll go to Dantooine and mass murder grauls together.
-- Ypi