Business And Economy Archive

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GrafvonSoden wrote:

Graf,

I'm not trying to flame here, just asking you a serious question.

Are you a crafter? If so, have you ever done your own harvesting? I'm not now, but I was a Master Droid Engineer and Master Artisan. And yes, I'did my own harvesting.

Both of which have low-end requirements for resources, sans vehicles.

If you have then you know that having 70 heavy harvs does not mean that you'll find a place to put them all. Even if someone FINDS a great spawn concentration you're not going to have the room to place 70 harvs on it. No, but what it does mean, is that after this person has placed all he/she can, then there is no room for me to place any of mine.

On that spot. There's plenty of places for you to place your harvestors on the planet, however.

Furthermore, let us assume for the moment that the spawn is on a plain and placing 70 harvs in relative proximity to the maximum concentrationis possible. Unless you have 7 accounts, all of which have no lots used, you are going to have to rely on others (likely MANY others) to help you place that many harvesters. Where is the problem with that? If I, as an in-game businessman, want to engage the help of others to support my business should I not be allowed to? If you answer that I should not, then would you also argue that combat grouping should be denied as well? Let's be clear on what my stand is. I have not said that you shouldnt be allowed to trade or rent lots from other players actively participating in the game. What I do not like is people cross server lot trading where the person created a character on traded lot server for that sole purpose. And this person does/will not actively support or live in the server economy.

It is impossible to RENT lots in this game. You may pay people to harvest for you, but you may not RENT lots. Renting something means you take control of the item for your use during the period on the contract. Since this game has neither the means to transfer lots to someone, or any manner to create or enforce oral contracts, you assumption that renting lots is a possibly activity is false. I have had over 130 harvestors stolen by miners I paid to use their lots for mining a spawn. CSRs said "Oh well" everytime.

If you are saying that it is possible to have static harvesting fields of that number on such an uber resource then either you're not being completely truthful or you're completely misunderstanding the reality of static harvesting fields. If we first assume that someone has a static harvester field of 70 heavies, which is a very generous assumption, then you are also assuming that they are spending hundreds of thousands of credits (millions?) to keep that field maintained. That, in and of itself, is something to wonder at even if you don't agree with the concept of lot swaps. Let us THEN understand the fact (and yes, it is a FACT) that the odds of a good spawn happening under said harvest field and in a good concentration is so infinitesimally low that said owner of the harvesting field essentially just won the resource lottery. I say "congratulations!" not "CHEATER!". I dont think the chances of getting another spaw in the same location is asunlikely as you would like us to believe. The reason they are there to begin with, is there was an uber spaw of some sort. If you say different , then I think you are the one not being completely truthfull. And the reason they remain there, is because you are making a profit even at 2 CPU (as stated before, we know what the real cost per cpu is and ists not even 1 cpu). Let's face it, if you werent making a substancial profit, you would find you prfit elsewhere.

Most static farms I see are more solocated for convenience of placement (flat spots) and ability to maintain them in a timely manner. I doubt the current resource under them plays any significant part in those decisions.I remember the last person on Tempest to try a truly huge farm setup. All of the Endor, Dathomir and Yavin harvestors blew up in 2 months.

Now, if we discount the idea that this gentleman harvested all of the resources himself and bought some of them as well...

Bottom line is this. In order to amass 42million of ANY resource, let alone "the best of its kind to ever spawn on this server" is a REAL accomplishment. It's not easy no matter which way you slice it.And why exactly does anyone need 42 million of any resource.

Why do you care? Do you letanyone analyze everything you do in life on a daily basis? What makes you authorized to do so?

[snip the rest]

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Ackew wrote:

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GraySeven wrote:

I've said it somewhere...Artisan board I think, but the easy fix for cross-server trades is to require re-deeding of harvesters before you can change the resource. Reduce the re-deed cost since re-deeding would be a much greater occurance, but make resource choice available only upon placing of the deed. If it becomes a big pain in the backside for the cross-traders, you'll see less of it. It won't be eliminated, but even greatly reduced is an improvement. Then, SOE simply has to make a rule on these trades and come down on those doing it afterwards.

This would also help quiet the Artisans who have always been a bit angry over the ability of just anyone to place harvesters...

Oh, also, the merchant price break on maintenance is for any unit he has Admin rights to AND has put money into.

Message Edited by GraySeven on 01-28-2005 01:37 PM

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Well thats merchant price break does'nt work for me. And other idea is pretty stupid if you ask me. Once again reduceing the number of static harvs is a BAD idea. for the reasons i have stated before and still have'nt seen any one disprove

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The merchant that possesses the Efficieny 4 skill must be the last one to pay on the structure for the 20% discount to kick into effect.

Fivo Asia

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Cafa wrote:

I truly believe that most solid business-oriented players would prefer to RENT lots on their own server. The problem with renting is there is literally no trust agreement assignable for the transaction. I can destroy MY personal property (whatever my lot is holding) at anytime and you have zero recourse.

Fix issues like this and then talk to me about fairness.

At least with cross-lot traders I don't have to worry about their politics, moods or actions on a daily basis to the degreeof someone that you play the game with on your server.

Fivo Asia

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Amen. If there were a viable way for people to Rent or outright purchase lots from other characters on the same server, cross server lot trades would vanish entirely. There are ALWAYS people who do not have a use for the majoriy of their lots. In that case, said lots are a waste if not used. Give us a viable way to use these lots.. Imagine that - Expand the economy through something so easy as eliminating all the potential drawbacks of getting lots from players on the same server. Lot trader has what he/she wants: More lots. Person with excess lots gets what they want: A reliable, on-going fee paid to them automatically.

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SLINGBLADEMA wrote:

all this reading and no dev post

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What do you expect as i have said before there is NOT ONE post by the devs on this beforeand i doubt there EVER will be.

Gary trying reading my posts at least ONCE before saying there is NO good reason for haveing lot swaps. So all grinders should be got rid of well thats pretty much everyone in the game thenas i'm sure most people have grinding AT LEAST one profession in thier time playing timeif not more. The reason for this being as NO ONE wants to buy any thing from any one who is'nt a master. Why bother to buy from a non masterwhen there are so manymasters about all ready. So the only way to compete is to become a master as fast as possable. This means grinding and requires grind resources. Which i and many others supply with harvs on lots we have traded for as thier no use for any thing esle. I bet if i worked it out i would find that my statics are actually COSTING me money rather than makeing the supposed multi millions so many of you rabid any lot swapers seem thing we make. Yes you can make LOTS of money from resources but NOT from grind res got from a static harv. If 3 million power will keep you harvs runing for a year you must have about 4. Casue 30k power runs a heavy harv for 2 weeks. thats 780k power a year per harv, sofor 4 harvs thats 3,120,000 power for a year. So please tell me how with you 4 harvs you have managed to get 30 million resources. Casue on good spot (75%) with 4 harvs you get about 60k a day. It will take you 500 days to get 30million at that rate. Which as far as i know is longer than this game has been runing. So as usual with you rabid anti lot swapers your LIEING. Either you have more haves or just don't like people who actually make an effort and take the time to get to know people on oither servers. I bet your one of these casual gamers who hate people who can spend or make thetime to spend more that the hour or 2 a week you manage and therefor will ALLWAYS have more money, resources or any thing else you want. Its simple the more you put into this game the more you get out.

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GraySeven wrote:

I've said it somewhere...Artisan board I think, but the easy fix for cross-server trades is to require re-deeding of harvesters before you can change the resource. Reduce the re-deed cost since re-deeding would be a much greater occurance, but make resource choice available only upon placing of the deed. If it becomes a big pain in the backside for the cross-traders, you'll see less of it. It won't be eliminated, but even greatly reduced is an improvement. Then, SOE simply has to make a rule on these trades and come down on those doing it afterwards.

This would also help quiet the Artisans who have always been a bit angry over the ability of just anyone to place harvesters...

Oh, also, the merchant price break on maintenance is for any unit he has Admin rights to AND has put money into.

Message Edited by GraySeven on 01-28-2005 01:37 PM

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Well thats merchant price break does'nt work for me. And other idea is pretty stupid if you ask me. Once again reduceing the number of static harvs is a BAD idea. for the reasons i have stated before and still have'nt seen any one disprove

Message Edited by GraySeven on 01-30-2005 10:25 PM

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GraySeven wrote:

I'm not even certain how many characters I can have on one account (not server). Is it 8? Even if its just 5, the numbers are amazing. If there are 10k characters per server, each with 2 accounts, that would be 200k lots. The same 10k characters (with one account) sharing lots across servers is500k lots per server...obscene.

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Why are you placing a 2 account restriction in your math?

Because it proves your point, and no other reason. It's nice to use math to "prove" your point, but you are using totally arbitrary limits on one side, and inflating your numbers on the other.

First off, quite a few of the people with multiple accounts have more than 2. I've known many with 5 or more. So let's assume a number of 5, like you assumed a number of 2. 10k characters per server, each with 5 accounts, that would be 500k lots. Makes quite a difference, doesn't it? 10000*5*10 = 500,000

Whereas not everyone does lot trades. assume 50% (Still rather high, as actual numbers are FAR lower based on the LACK of massive harvester fields out there). So, 5k characters (with one account) sharing lots across servers is 250k lots per server. 5000*10*5 = 250,000

I've just shown, using completely arbitrary numbers (Just like you used) how cross server trading is LESS restrictive than multiple accounts.

If you are going to use numbersto proveyour points, please use ACTUAL numbers. But of course, you can't, because nobody KNOWS the actual numbers, do they?

Message Edited by Phaelyn on 01-31-2005 09:18 AM

I'm using the two account number based on the information gained in the survey done by the Dev's on the subject. The vast majority of multi-account holders had 2 accounts, and the numbers for 1 account and more than 2 accounts were nearly equal, which would still balance out.

I didn't arbitrarily pull 2 accounts out of the air, I'm simply going by the majority. Truthfully, unless you are Ebaying things, more than 2 accounts makes very little sense. If you want the extra lots, cross server trading is much more efficient at this time since there is no block to it.

ok, i've only read the first couple of pages about this cross server lot trading and i'm already sick of it. what all you noncrafters out there don't see is the fact that crafters like chefs need to have the ability to pump out crates of about 60 different foods AND their subcomponents. that task right there takes up about 6 factories. what about our resources we need? we can't be buying the high quality stuff for 12-20 cpu (intrepid server prices). we need to harvest our own material in order to make any profit whatsoever. i am a lot swapper but i only have 30 lots so it's not like i have hundreds. i do think that lots should be limited but it should be limited by profession. just like the merchant tree, i think players should get more lots as they move up a CRAFTING profession tree. let's say everyone gets 10 lots to start out with. so someone gets master artisan, they get 5 more lots. they get maybe one lot per branch they move up and one for master. for example, you start out with 10 lots, you get master artisan and get 5 more lots to bring your total to 15. then you master the chef profession and get 5 more so you have a total of 20. this way, crafters can have many more lots than just the normal combat people. i also thought of an alternative way to stop lot swapping. make it so that every starting profession has to earn the lots, not just the crafting professions. this time though, a starting profession would get 2 lots for every branch they complete but everyone would start out with 0 lots. so a brawler 0/4/1/4 would get 4 lots. this way, people couldn't just create characters on different servers without putting some serious time grinding to EARN the lots. anyways, these are just some ideas that i put some serious thought into and i hope the devs see this post.

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GraySeven wrote:

Let me put this another way...

Originally (in Beta 3) there were NO lot limits...and even in early Beta 3, the sheer number of harvesters and structures was obscene. They were, quite literally, everywhere.

Then, a 75 lot limt...still way to bad. 1 Kilometer from any city and you couldn't find a clear patch of ground for another kilometer.

Then 10. A little too strict, most thought, especially with the house item limits set so low.

Each character was given 10 lots because that is all the Dev's wanted each character to have, for various reasons. If you are using cross server lot trades to have more than that 10 lot limit, you are exploiting. An exploit is taking advantage of a loophole or bug that allows you to do something against the wishes of SOE that gives you an unfair advantage over those who do NOT use the same loophole or bug. The Dev's thus far have choosen to ignore this exploit for reasons unknown to me. Seems if they can ban people who recieved credits created by duping then they could track everyone doing cross server trades, but hey, its their game.

By having more than 10 lots for a single character, you gain the advantage of having the ability to store more items, manufacture more goods, and harvest more resources than those who follow the 10 lot per character rule. I have only 10 lots per character and even though I have 2 characters I am not breaking the rules. Any argument about being able to afford topay for more than one accountis nebulous, since you could pay 2k for a computer, 12 bucks a month sub and 50 bucks for the game yet complain about 12 more bucks a month...

None of your arguments holds water to the basic fact that cross-server trading is cheating and exploiting. The "economy" won't suffer because its an arbitrary economy anyway. The only people who will charge more to sell resources are people who were cross-server trading and who will falsly believe that any resources they sell are worth more.

What reason is there any more for mining huge amounts of resources, anyway? The grind is gone, mostly. Guilds, if they want huge mining operations have that ability anyway if they "charge" each member 2 lots to go to the guild for guild structures...so there still isn't any good reason to cross server trade except for specific individuals who cheat the system to make a credit.

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