CUEmu - Thread Posts

TheRealTK421

Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:32 pm

Exhibit69 wrote:

and i think i do harvest quite a bit withthe 8 lots that i use for harvesting, but i will NEVER be able to compete with someone who cheats.

I would caution everyone not to consider this out-and-out "cheating" until the red-names state so in explicit and unmistakable terms.

However, the statement above is a key element (to me) in why they likely tend to frown on the practice.

Maybe a better way to say this is that the imbalance is that those that don't lot trade fill find it almost cripplingly more difficult to compete in relation to anyone that trades lots 'out the wahzoo'.

Personally, I do just fine running 2 Heavys (BER 14) on whatever I might need at the time. I can keep pretty much whatever resource I need in stock to factory crate any/all droid parts or such that I'd need for quite some time. /shrug

Note: I have 2 free lots max. unless I'm using them...then I'm out.

/bow

Respectfully,

TheRealTK421 a.k.a. "Doughbacca"

SWG DE Correspondent

Co-Founding member of Ahazi DENet & SWG DEA (Droid Engineer Association)

"I think all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. ...I'm certainly not. And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am."

Diorchas

Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:41 am

#80

I think a lot of people who don't low swap have misconceptions about the supposed benefits of doing it to harvest.

Leaving aside the obvious benefits of having more storage and the ability to produce more items via more factories, let's just address the harvesting issue.

Folks, there is NOT a huge benefit to running static harvester fields. As has been mentioned before, it is VERY rare to have something spawn under them that is both good AND in a reasonably high concentration. The vast majority of the time they are used to harvest ore (which any SW or Archy will tell you is needed) or whatever random grind-quality spawn is underneath them. I would argue that this benefits the economy at large at least as much as the owner of the static since it provides all the "filler" resources and frees others to concentrate their limited harvesting on whatever spawns are good at the time.

People are also forgetting the cost of running such fields. Expenses for power and maintenance add up very quickly and, as mentioned before, the product yielded by that expense is very often low quality and therefor cheap. Static harvester fields may go weeks without being worth the expense and, in many cases, are actually a DRAIN on the account of the person that owns them.

So before you immediately assume that lot swaps are unbalancing to the economy insofar as harvesting is concerned, do a little research. Such swaps are far more beneficial to the swapper when used for storage than they are for harvesting. If you have any complaint at all over swapping it is for the storage aspect, not the harvesting.

Ackew

Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:13 am

#81

Exhibit69 wrote:

So let me just get this straight. Your response to me saying that cross server trading is cheating is .. well why dont you start cheating too?

and i think i do harvest quite a bit withthe 8 lots that i use for harvesting, but i will NEVER be able to compete with someone who cheats.

The relative scarcity or abundance of resources makes ) difference to the way they are priced in my experiance. Witness the resource vendor outside of Theed Naboo on my server with 42,000,000 units of the best ever copper to spawn on our server, all priced at 100 cpu.

Message Edited by Exhibit69 on 01-25-2005 07:43 PM

Please show me ANY post from a dev that says cross server lot tradeing is cheating. You can't as there is NONE. As usual you raving anti lot people resort toLIEING about the FACT that lot trade IS cheating and the supposed 42 million copper. if you had said 4.2 million iwould of belived you but to harvest 42 million in the nomral time frame of a spawn wouid take 00'sof harvs and the odds of any one haveing this muchare VERY VERY unlikely. Considering the fact that one person can have1 character on 8 different servers. He can have a max of 70 lots from lot tradeing. Since the harvest percenage is at best going to be 50% on avarage and thats being generous on his 70 harvs. Aslo assumeing all his harvs are heavy's he will get about 10k of resources a day. Which is a total of 700k a day. Assumeing an avarge spawn length of 10 days. Thats 7 milllion in total. In order to harvest 42 million at this rate he would need the spawn to last 60 days. Which is over 4 times longer that the max spawn time. Or he would of needed 6 times as many harvs IE 420. Which unless he has 6 accounts is impossable. Here is the costs for runing said harvs. A heavy costs 2160 credits a day and 1800 power (which costs 2cpu on my server) Thats 3960 credits PER dayPER harv. For 70 harvs thats 403,000 A DAY For 420 harvs its 2,419,200 A DAY. So for the the 10 day harvest period thats 4.03 Million for the 70 harvs and 24.19Million for the 420. do you have that sort of money to put in harvs ?

Next tine you post please have some FACTS not just B/S.

Message Edited by Ackew on 01-26-2005 04:24 PM

RIP SWG April 27th 2005

Flagoo

Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:01 am

#82

There are cheats that are blatant cheats. Like credit dupin' or speedhackin'. Everyone can agree they are bad and are cheats.

Then there are things that everyone can agree are legal. Like using your ten lots, using factories to make things instead of storing things. Basically all the stuff we do when we play within the simple limits the game was intended to operate under.

Then there are things that while not especially considered cheating are considered "player fixes" that go beyond the game as it was intended. Buffbots, server swaps, FD for jedi and BHs, etc. Opinions on these things are mixed dependin' on who you talk to.

The way I see it, cross server lot swapin' puts too much power outside of my control. If the guy I swap with gets banned or leaves the game, and I got a whole lot of rare loot and resources in the houses, I'm screwed. 'Cause how can I ask a CSR to step in and save the house that ain't even my house? That's why I don't cross-server lot swap.

So remember ya'll. Swap at your own risk.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Flagoo}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
'Aint no place for the green man in the white stormtrooper's Empire!

Genuine Master Rodian Smuggling

----------------------I can pwn any fish in the pond!----------------------
Director of the Foundation for Rodian Independence, Learning, & Logistical Support [F.R.I.L.L.S.]

Exhibit69

Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:56 am

#83

I Hate being called a liar. Come create a character on sunrunner, sir, and proceed 1km sw of Theed Naboo. Have a look at your overhead map, you will see the vendor im speaking of. as of last night he still had 36million units, You made many assumptions in your math,three of which i will address

A> he accomplished this alone

-- i doubt it, im sure it was a group project.

B> he only got a 50% conc

-- im sure he and his crew moved harv/swapped new lots/went planet to planet tofind high concentrations,

C> he does not know a master merchant

-- certainly he can get a 20% break on his maintenance cost

And i sure dont have that kind of money and power but it appears to me that if i had 70 some "personal" heavy mining units and a few months of lead time i could acheive those levels of avaialbe power and credits.

Im sorry for offending you by saying that cross server lot trading is cheating.

Message Edited by Exhibit69 on 01-27-2005 05:00 AM

Colonel Trell Sonjonn: Rogue Corsec Agent

GrafvonSoden

Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:02 am

#84

Ackew :

As usual NONE of the anti lot trade people have answerd the question of what will happend to the resource market IF they get rid of lot trades.Its becuase they KNOW it will VASTLY increase the price of resources esp grind. I have a load of harvs on traded lots and 99.9% of the time all they get is grind resources which i sell on for 2cpu. I know many other people who do the same. If you got rid of these lots all of us would stop geting grind resources and suddenly the demand would rapidly outstrip supply as very few people would bother to get grind res when they only have 6 lots to get all the resources they need. As a shipwright i need 19 different resources how am i supposed to get this with just 6 harvs. I can't so i have to PAY people to get others. The money for this comes from selling my grind resources. If i have none i must raise prices to get the money to buy the resources. As thier are a LOT less resources entering the market thanks to no lot trades.The price of EVERTHING will rise since the base cost of resources does. So if you want to kill the economy then get rid of lots trade. otherwise shut the &*"£ up.

.Actually we all have answered it, NOTHING disasterous will happen. Only disaster will be to people like you, others will get by fine, of this I am positive.As usual people likeyou try to use fearto sway opinons your way. Maybe you wont be able to "Mass Produce" all the things you want, big deal. The economy will survive and probably flourish.

And dont try and tell me you have all those harvesters to produce grind quality resouces. Indeed NOT. You have them there to get outrageous amount of the quality stuff when it pops. And dont try to BS anyone by saying you sell the good stuff for 2 or 3 CPU.

But these are the facts:

Is it fair - No

Can you do it - Yes

Will you continue to do it - Yes

Do you care - No

Do the Devs care - No

So put whatever spin you want to on it, but please dont try to BullSh1t us with "Chicken Little" rants.

Diorchas

Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:02 am

#85

Graf,

I'm not trying to flame here, just asking you a serious question.

Are you a crafter? If so, have you ever done your own harvesting?

If you have then you know that having 70 heavy harvs does not mean that you'll find a place to put them all. Even if someone FINDS a great spawn concentration you're not going to have the room to place 70 harvs on it.

Furthermore, let us assume for the moment that the spawn is on a plain and placing 70 harvs in relative proximity to the maximum concentrationis possible. Unless you have 7 accounts, all of which have no lots used, you are going to have to rely on others (likely MANY others) to help you place that many harvesters. Where is the problem with that? If I, as an in-game businessman, want to engage the help of others to support my business should I not be allowed to? If you answer that I should not, then would you also argue that combat grouping should be denied as well?

If you are saying that it is possible to have static harvesting fields of that number on such an uber resource then either you're not being completely truthful or you're completely misunderstanding the reality of static harvesting fields. If we first assume that someone has a static harvester field of 70 heavies, which is a very generous assumption, then you are also assuming that they are spending hundreds of thousands of credits (millions?) to keep that field maintained. That, in and of itself, is something to wonder at even if you don't agree with the concept of lot swaps. Let us THEN understand the fact (and yes, it is a FACT) that the odds of a good spawn happening under said harvest field and in a good concentration is so infinitesimally low that said owner of the harvesting field essentially just won the resource lottery. I say "congratulations!" not "CHEATER!".

Now, if we discount the idea that this gentleman harvested all of the resources himself and bought some of them as well...

Bottom line is this. In order to amass 42million of ANY resource, let alone "the best of its kind to ever spawn on this server" is a REAL accomplishment. It's not easy no matter which way you slice it.

If he did it all himself with his own accounts, I'm stunned at the amount of RL money he spends on this game to make such an accomplishment even POSSIBLE.

If he had help, more power to him. This is an MMO after all and it would still take a massive combined effort to accomplish what he did.

If he bought it from other miners this is a paean to his diplomacy, massive network of connections and business savvy.

If he did it with static harvesting fields his luck was so impressive that you just have to shake your head at it and say "Wow, lucky you." The implication that lot swapping can accomplish the amassing of 42million of anything is so laughable that any attempt to use it as an argument against lot swapping is disingenuous at best and downright fraud at worst.

Look at it this way... In order to amass that amount of a given resource you would have to run 100 heavy harvesters on a 100% concentration (which is not even possible, I believe) for over three weeks. No non-JtL spawn lasts longer than 10 days (that I've seen anyway) and most last for about a week. So if we assume a spawn time of one week and, for sh*ts and giggles assume a concentrational averageof 90% (which is still pretty high), this person would have had to put into practice 356 heavy harvesters to gather that much resource. That's pretty impressive no matter how you look at it.

It would have cost him well over 150million to buy the resources, assuming that they sold for at least 3cpu (and that assumption is very likely conservative). Again, impressive.

Even if you assume a combination of luck, co-operation and business acumen you're still looking at an insane amount of effort put into the gathering of said resource. Yet you want to strap this guy and his friends to the pillory instead of marveling at the accomplishment? Geez.

Honestly, I could care less whether the devs nerf lot swapping or not. I don't have enough resources and time tied into it to make a lot of difference to me. I don't use swapped lots to store my most important stuff and I don't lay down massive harvesting fields because they're generally more trouble than they're worth.

I just take exception to people on both sides going all alarmist and using fallacious arguments to back up their assertions. It's great that everyone has an opinion, but nobody accomplishes anything by bringing faulty logic and information to the table. The game doesn't benefit, the community doesn't benefit and all it does is make both sides look like they're just foaming at the mouth.

jumbila

Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:22 am

#86

DBAC- I have looked for the longest time to see ANY post's on this "cross Server Lot Trade" and never seen any. Can you give me a link to a post you have seen? I don't care either way I would just like to see some information or a statement on the matter from SWG. Thanks.

Sousuke-Sagara

Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:34 am

#87

Ackew wrote:

As usual NONE of the anti lot trade people have answerd the question of what will happend to the resource market IF they get rid of lot trades. Its becuase they KNOW it will VASTLY increase the price of resources esp grind. I have a load of harvs on traded lots and 99.9% of the time all they get is grind resources which i sell on for 2cpu. I know many other people who do the same. If you got rid of these lots all of us would stop geting grind resources and suddenly the demand would rapidly outstrip supply as very few people would bother to get grind res when they only have 6 lots to get all the resources they need. As a shipwright i need 19 different resources how am i supposed to get this with just 6 harvs. I can't so i have to PAY people to get others. The money for this comes from selling my grind resources. If i have none i must raise prices to get the money to buy the resources. As thier are a LOT less resources entering the market thanks to no lot trades.The price of EVERTHING will rise since the base cost of resources does. So if you want to kill the economy then get rid of lots trade. otherwise shut the &*"£ up.

RIGHT ON!

If cross server static lot trades are done, the businesses like my own that produce large amounts of cheap grind resources will die. Think there are barriers to entry to businesses like armorsmithing now? See what it's like when grind metal hits 15CPU. Before suggesting getting rid of static lot swaps, please consider those whose livelihoods depend on these arrangements.

Name: Sousuke -Sagagra
Rank: Colonel, Imperial Marine Corps
Serial Number: B3128

Diorchas

Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:38 am

#88

Grind resources wouldn't hit 15cpu if static lots went away. The prices would go up a little across the board, but there would still be an upper limit set by the going rates for "high quality" stuff.

Still, I think having static lots produce a large amount of grind material is beneficial to the economy and as such lot swaps should not be "nerfed."

Sousuke-Sagara

Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:40 am

#89

Alright, 15CPU was excessive, but I guarantee you prices would at least quintuple from the .95CPU I charge now.

Name: Sousuke -Sagagra
Rank: Colonel, Imperial Marine Corps
Serial Number: B3128

GrafvonSoden

Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:58 am

#90

Graf,

I'm not trying to flame here, just asking you a serious question.

Are you a crafter? If so, have you ever done your own harvesting? I'm not now, but I was a Master Droid Engineer and Master Artisan. And yes, I'did my own harvesting.

If you have then you know that having 70 heavy harvs does not mean that you'll find a place to put them all. Even if someone FINDS a great spawn concentration you're not going to have the room to place 70 harvs on it. No, but what it does mean, is that after this person has placed all he/she can, then there is no room for me to place any of mine.

Furthermore, let us assume for the moment that the spawn is on a plain and placing 70 harvs in relative proximity to the maximum concentrationis possible. Unless you have 7 accounts, all of which have no lots used, you are going to have to rely on others (likely MANY others) to help you place that many harvesters. Where is the problem with that? If I, as an in-game businessman, want to engage the help of others to support my business should I not be allowed to? If you answer that I should not, then would you also argue that combat grouping should be denied as well? Let's be clear on what my stand is. I have not said that you shouldnt be allowed to trade or rent lots from other players actively participating in the game. What I do not like is people cross server lot trading where the person created a character on traded lot server for that sole purpose. And this person does/will not actively support or live in the server economy.

If you are saying that it is possible to have static harvesting fields of that number on such an uber resource then either you're not being completely truthful or you're completely misunderstanding the reality of static harvesting fields. If we first assume that someone has a static harvester field of 70 heavies, which is a very generous assumption, then you are also assuming that they are spending hundreds of thousands of credits (millions?) to keep that field maintained. That, in and of itself, is something to wonder at even if you don't agree with the concept of lot swaps. Let us THEN understand the fact (and yes, it is a FACT) that the odds of a good spawn happening under said harvest field and in a good concentration is so infinitesimally low that said owner of the harvesting field essentially just won the resource lottery. I say "congratulations!" not "CHEATER!". I dont think the chances of getting another spaw in the same location is asunlikely as you would like us to believe. The reason they are there to begin with, is there was an uber spaw of some sort. If you say different , then I think you are the one not being completely truthfull. And the reason they remain there, is because you are making a profit even at 2 CPU (as stated before, we know what the real cost per cpu is and ists not even 1 cpu). Let's face it, if you werent making a substancial profit, you would find you prfit elsewhere.

Now, if we discount the idea that this gentleman harvested all of the resources himself and bought some of them as well...

Bottom line is this. In order to amass 42million of ANY resource, let alone "the best of its kind to ever spawn on this server" is a REAL accomplishment. It's not easy no matter which way you slice it.And why exactly does anyone need 42 million of any resource.