Business And Economy Archive
Thread: The Unfortunate truth about Credits.*UPDATED*
PoetDancer
Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:46 pm
#80
One aspect that I hear from World of Warcraft that I find appealing in the economic sense is the seriousness they take unattended play. Its grounds for banishment.
Because when non-players start to take over the functions of playing dancers, musicians, squad leaders, rangers, or doctors, we really cannot call that a player-based economy.
When one can have the macro system dictate to a vacant character to mimic live player actions far in excess of any motivation for doing so, one cannot say its capitalism. Free market economics are based upon the premise that all economic actors are rational and self-interested.
Unattended characters are neither rational, nor self-interested. That is what makes this economy broken at fundamental levels.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 03-14-2005 10:46 PM
PhatMadness
Thu Mar 17, 2005 12:55 pm
#81
Bah, I fight PvE unarmored at almost all times on my regular combat character, and I have to as Jedi, so I would definitely say that armor is not necessary. And PvP not being a 'choice'?? Bah to that as well. Theres plenty to do in PvE, if you WANT to PvP you can, thats why they made it OPTIONAL, not forced. Armor, buffs and food are paltry expenses in my opinion, you can still make enough money to cover all of these expenses in one buff session, maybe two, without solo groups. Being uber in PvP is something most people build up to with experience, gifts from friends, and yes, some credits. But many people feel they have to buy their way into PvP, and then they suck even with all the good stuff they have, so maybe throwing your whole bankroll on one stupid DoT isn't worth it. I've seen good duelers with standard weapons annihilate 'bad duelers' that bought all their uberness and still suck at PvP. So yes, I still agree with Need vs. Want, and disagree with you.
falllacy wrote:
sorry, you lost all credibility about two sentences in...armor and buffs voluntary?
sure, if you want to not play the game. perhaps sit in the starport. or kill kreetles.
The fact is, to experience any of the high end content, you need armor, you need buffs, you need good weapons.
You need food. you need swoops.
Want to pvp at all? all of the above as well. And pvp, for many people, isn't a 'choice'..it's an integral part of the star wars universe.
PoetDancer
Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:35 am
#82
I think this is a good post about credits, about needs, about wants, and about wants becoming needs. Actually, one would be suprised how much money one can still make doing missions alone and unbuffed.
The content additions over the last year and a half have all centered around theextreme tier of the combat food chain. The developers are put a lot of effort in 2003 and 2004 to give the extreme combat characters some new things to prevent them from getting bored. The development staff put a heavy emphasis on new art resources, new loots, and new experiences exclusively forupper-tier characters. But by doing so, gave the player base the general perception of "unless I am uber, I won't experience anything new."
Fortunately, the development staff seems committed in 2005 to providing more fun, challenging, and interesting game options for lower and mid level characters. I have many issues with some aspects of recent development, but the one thing I can say in a positive light is how very rich the gameplay options are these days for me as compared with 2003 and 2004.
Before, one had to be the top 5% or so to have fun, new content and developer attention. These days, it seems everybody can find fun new things to do. And when the game can be just as fun without buffs and high end gear, as well as with buffs and high end gear, we will hopefully not have to worry about "having the prerequisites" to have fun. We'll be able to find the fun without them.
padren
Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:27 pm
#83
/agree
I think it really ruins the game to focus on getting the highest end stuff, if you are new the most fun thing is to just explore and have fun, you'll find where you get swallowed whole in 2 seconds and where you can survive, and let what you want to get be determined by how you get your butt kicked.
Some of the most fun I ever had on swg was the first 2 weeks (trial) when I was running around on Endor with 2 friends, with some scout and basic rifle marksmen skills in the 3/1/1/3 ish range. No armor, (didn't have bone yet) a pistol and laser rifle, some stim As and no buffs, just a speeder bike. It was tons of fun to line up and setup the perfect shots, stalk the right critters, avoid the ones that could eat us whole, and drop something that gave 2k xp.
Its still fun, we just dropped our first krayt juv, which was a bit tricky with all the other large ones around, but honestly the speed of combat and how fast you can die as a newb was more exciting. Don't worry about getting the best stuff in the game - you can't 'win' SWG. Explore, push the boundries of what you can achieve, and when something really is getting under your skin that you just want to be able to beat, get what you need to do it.
If you want to make the fun of the game feel like work, then you can grind on all the most profitable routines until you get all the master badges needed to feel like you 'won' the game, and a lot of CRs too. But it doesn't make the rest of the game more rewarding unless you are trying to impress all the older 'power players' in the game. If you find challenges fun, its never more challenging than the beginning, and why fast forward through so much great content?
I think it really ruins the game to focus on getting the highest end stuff, if you are new the most fun thing is to just explore and have fun, you'll find where you get swallowed whole in 2 seconds and where you can survive, and let what you want to get be determined by how you get your butt kicked.
Some of the most fun I ever had on swg was the first 2 weeks (trial) when I was running around on Endor with 2 friends, with some scout and basic rifle marksmen skills in the 3/1/1/3 ish range. No armor, (didn't have bone yet) a pistol and laser rifle, some stim As and no buffs, just a speeder bike. It was tons of fun to line up and setup the perfect shots, stalk the right critters, avoid the ones that could eat us whole, and drop something that gave 2k xp.
Its still fun, we just dropped our first krayt juv, which was a bit tricky with all the other large ones around, but honestly the speed of combat and how fast you can die as a newb was more exciting. Don't worry about getting the best stuff in the game - you can't 'win' SWG. Explore, push the boundries of what you can achieve, and when something really is getting under your skin that you just want to be able to beat, get what you need to do it.
If you want to make the fun of the game feel like work, then you can grind on all the most profitable routines until you get all the master badges needed to feel like you 'won' the game, and a lot of CRs too. But it doesn't make the rest of the game more rewarding unless you are trying to impress all the older 'power players' in the game. If you find challenges fun, its never more challenging than the beginning, and why fast forward through so much great content?
lordsegan
Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:51 am
#84
I disagree with the original poster about the need/want question..
I have played since launch (roughly). For a very long time I played as a master pistoleer with bounty hunter pistols. I never worried about having uber gear -- I bought pistols for 3-15k and got them damage sliced for a few extra K. I was able to see a lot of the content, especially when buffs and armor and swoops became common.
In general, I was happy. I realized some players were fighting harder MOBs, but I felt that I did not need or want much more. I had a few million, and was always able to buy new guns/armor/food/buffs.
About 9 (? cant remember now) months into the game I quit for a long time. I had real life issues that were more important and the game was taking up too much time.
I recently came back for JTL. After mastering pilot I found I could make a LOT of money in space. I could make 200k+ an hour just selling to the vendor, or even more if I looted a bunch of nice stuff and sold to players.
I made money, bought/looted uber level 10 guns, and bought a Firespray.
I felt uber -- and I wanted more. So, I made a new alt character as a Master rifleman. I gave him the best stuff: speed tapes, 89% armor, ultra nice crafted T21 with top end tissues.
As far as I am concerned, the rifleman has opened up a new game for me -- I can easily kill NS, Dragons, Geonosians. All of these things were hard to kill with the pistoleer with *normal* weapons/armor.
I WANT the high end content. I maybe dont NEED it to maintain an account on the server -- but I NEED/WANT more than just to maintain an expensive chat room while sitting in the Coronet starport. Compared to the rifeman, the pistoleer almost feels like that. I want to be able to see any content, and not die, basically whenever I choose to -- for that, I need GOOD weapons/armor etc.
This game is what we make of it. But I feel that I NEED a lot to have fun in this game too.
I have played since launch (roughly). For a very long time I played as a master pistoleer with bounty hunter pistols. I never worried about having uber gear -- I bought pistols for 3-15k and got them damage sliced for a few extra K. I was able to see a lot of the content, especially when buffs and armor and swoops became common.
In general, I was happy. I realized some players were fighting harder MOBs, but I felt that I did not need or want much more. I had a few million, and was always able to buy new guns/armor/food/buffs.
About 9 (? cant remember now) months into the game I quit for a long time. I had real life issues that were more important and the game was taking up too much time.
I recently came back for JTL. After mastering pilot I found I could make a LOT of money in space. I could make 200k+ an hour just selling to the vendor, or even more if I looted a bunch of nice stuff and sold to players.
I made money, bought/looted uber level 10 guns, and bought a Firespray.
I felt uber -- and I wanted more. So, I made a new alt character as a Master rifleman. I gave him the best stuff: speed tapes, 89% armor, ultra nice crafted T21 with top end tissues.
As far as I am concerned, the rifleman has opened up a new game for me -- I can easily kill NS, Dragons, Geonosians. All of these things were hard to kill with the pistoleer with *normal* weapons/armor.
I WANT the high end content. I maybe dont NEED it to maintain an account on the server -- but I NEED/WANT more than just to maintain an expensive chat room while sitting in the Coronet starport. Compared to the rifeman, the pistoleer almost feels like that. I want to be able to see any content, and not die, basically whenever I choose to -- for that, I need GOOD weapons/armor etc.
This game is what we make of it. But I feel that I NEED a lot to have fun in this game too.
Message Edited by lordsegan on 03-20-2005 11:52 PM
Message Edited by lordsegan on 03-20-2005 11:54 PM
bluejanus
Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:09 am
#85
lordsegan wrote:
Ok, I agree that grouping is fun. I had the most fun Ive ever had in the first few weeks of the game leveling and grouping with my 5% bone armor and CDEF pistol.
BUT: The game has since changed. I now feel that I need better gear in order to do what I want to.
I will admit this is only how I *feel* But you also have to admit -- this is only a game and if it doesnt make us feel good, why should we play?
What I am trying to say is that I feel good with neat gear. I feel less good with less good gear. It has very little to do with grouping, it has to do with my personal level of achievement.
I am the first person who hopes they change it so groups are fun again. But I also hope they fix loot tables to make groups make economic sense!!! I also hope they do not take away the ability for one player to invest more time than another and have better stuff!
Since we buy most of the good stuff from other people, we're not really earning it. So you're saying it's possible to buy your personal achievement?
lordsegan
Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:32 am
#86
bluejanus wrote:
lordsegan wrote:
Ok, I agree that grouping is fun. I had the most fun Ive ever had in the first few weeks of the game leveling and grouping with my 5% bone armor and CDEF pistol.
BUT: The game has since changed. I now feel that I need better gear in order to do what I want to.
I will admit this is only how I *feel* But you also have to admit -- this is only a game and if it doesnt make us feel good, why should we play?
What I am trying to say is that I feel good with neat gear. I feel less good with less good gear. It has very little to do with grouping, it has to do with my personal level of achievement.
I am the first person who hopes they change it so groups are fun again. But I also hope they fix loot tables to make groups make economic sense!!! I also hope they do not take away the ability for one player to invest more time than another and have better stuff!Since we buy most of the good stuff from other people, we're not really earning it. So you're saying it's possible to buy your personal achievement?
Um.... in order to buy the sweet armor/weapons I have worked hard both on the ground and in space and as a business dealer in the game. Yea, that is personal achievement.
Phaelyn
Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:22 pm
#87
Even in your response you AGREE with what I said - You wanted more - You wanted the ability to solo the content. If you played the game at the beginning (or near), i would hope during that time you saw the value, and FUN of grouping. Quite frankly, we were never MEANT to Solo the high end content. The system was made for Grouping to open up the high end content to all. But, in a lack of vision in the human spirit, the Devs added things here and there that began to make the High End content easier to do by yourself. They didn't picture 80% across the board armor - They have admitted as much. They didn't expect 2800, 3.5 hour buffs to be possible - They admitted that much. It's a testament to US, the players that we DID exceed their expectations - But in doing so, we moved a MULTI PLAYER game closer and closer to a SINGLE PLAYER game. The more we started soloing high end, the more things started to be "needed" - But the plain truth is, the items are needed to play the game alone.. Which is a huge detriment to a Multiplayer game.
lordsegan wrote:
I disagree with the original poster about the need/want question..
I have played since launch (roughly). For a very long time I played as a master pistoleer with bounty hunter pistols. I never worried about having uber gear -- I bought pistols for 3-15k and got them damage sliced for a few extra K. I was able to see a lot of the content, especially when buffs and armor and swoops became common.
In general, I was happy. I realized some players were fighting harder MOBs, but I felt that I did not need or want much more. I had a few million, and was always able to buy new guns/armor/food/buffs.
About 9 (? cant remember now) months into the game I quit for a long time. I had real life issues that were more important and the game was taking up too much time.
I recently came back for JTL. After mastering pilot I found I could make a LOT of money in space. I could make 200k+ an hour just selling to the vendor, or even more if I looted a bunch of nice stuff and sold to players.
I made money, bought/looted uber level 10 guns, and bought a Firespray.
I felt uber -- and I wanted more. So, I made a new alt character as a Master rifleman. I gave him the best stuff: speed tapes, 89% armor, ultra nice crafted T21 with top end tissues.
As far as I am concerned, the rifleman has opened up a new game for me -- I can easily kill NS, Dragons, Geonosians. All of these things were hard to kill with the pistoleer with *normal* weapons/armor.
I WANT the high end content. I maybe dont NEED it to maintain an account on the server -- but I NEED/WANT more than just to maintain an expensive chat room while sitting in the Coronet starport. Compared to the rifeman, the pistoleer almost feels like that. I want to be able to see any content, and not die, basically whenever I choose to -- for that, I need GOOD weapons/armor etc.
This game is what we make of it. But I feel that I NEED a lot to have fun in this game too.
Message Edited by lordsegan on 03-20-2005 11:52 PM
Message Edited by lordsegan on 03-20-2005 11:54 PM
BlackJango
Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:36 pm
#88
Huh? thats SO weird, because in the first months/weeks of playing (since launch) I NEVER needed food, buffs, armor, or super weapons. Hell, I didnt even buy one of those "expensive" 500 credit scout blasters for a few days/weeks
falllacy wrote:
sorry, you lost all credibility about two sentences in...armor and buffs voluntary?
sure, if you want to not play the game. perhaps sit in the starport. or kill kreetles.
The fact is, to experience any of the high end content, you need armor, you need buffs, you need good weapons.
You need food. you need swoops.
Want to pvp at all? all of the above as well. And pvp, for many people, isn't a 'choice'..it's an integral part of the star wars universe.
bluejanus
Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:43 pm
#89
lordsegan wrote:
bluejanus wrote:
lordsegan wrote:
Ok, I agree that grouping is fun. I had the most fun Ive ever had in the first few weeks of the game leveling and grouping with my 5% bone armor and CDEF pistol.
BUT: The game has since changed. I now feel that I need better gear in order to do what I want to.
I will admit this is only how I *feel* But you also have to admit -- this is only a game and if it doesnt make us feel good, why should we play?
What I am trying to say is that I feel good with neat gear. I feel less good with less good gear. It has very little to do with grouping, it has to do with my personal level of achievement.
I am the first person who hopes they change it so groups are fun again. But I also hope they fix loot tables to make groups make economic sense!!! I also hope they do not take away the ability for one player to invest more time than another and have better stuff!
Since we buy most of the good stuff from other people, we're not really earning it. So you're saying it's possible to buy your personal achievement?
Um.... in order to buy the sweet armor/weapons I have worked hard both on the ground and in space and as a business dealer in the game. Yea, that is personal achievement.
So, your efforts in-game to gain a certain amount of spending money is your personal achievement rather than what you used the money for. In other words, your personal achievement was the journey and the completion of a set amount of credits. Your achievement wasn't the end gear you got.
Message Edited by bluejanus on 03-21-2005 07:44 PM
Isrem
Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:00 pm
#90
EttaBrummi wrote:
The inference is that a new character, with only one account, stands virtually no chance of competing at the top end of the marketplace. none. zero. lots, ability to gather loot to get money to buy tapes, etc, is simply not there. not going to happen.Sorry, i can't agree with that. There's no chance to get all that in the first two weeks. Yes, it costs time, a huge amount of time. Is every player willing and able to invest the time required ? No, absolutely not. This game is rewarding the players that are investing time. Butlately the usual opinion has been that every player that plays 2 hours a week should get/have everything in this game.I usually don't compare it with the real life, but this point is the same in-game and in real life. If i invest time and effort into something, i'll get rewarded (well, most of the time).
Indeed, I needed 1 year to have my shop settled. A full year of hunting for the best of the best resources for my medicine. I needed months to be able to spend 100k on something. Why do new people think they should have the same in a week or two?
Invest time and passion, and you will get your reward over time.
Huk77
Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:28 pm
#91
I agree completely with you, especially when it comes to the "doctors charge too much" myth. Even a noob can kill ten k worth of meatlumps. After killing this many meatlumps, they should invest that money in a buff set, and kill 100k worth of npcs/critters. A tenfold return on your investment is good business anywhere. We should all be so lucky if stuff worked like this in RL. For this fact, I say "thank you" to all of the good doctors that buff us everyday. (yes i mean you -bongo-). After repeating the buff/kill/gain levels process a few times, the person should invest in armor and mind buffs in order to further increase their return on each buff set and send themselves on the road to success.