Business And Economy Archive
Thread: what economy? Worth a read
CasualMaker
Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:34 pm
#14
Phaelyn wrote:
They are basing their Logic on what is on TC 4-16-2005, and NOT what will be coming Live. Fact is, we don't KNOW the true nature of the CU, because it is NOT fully shown to us yet. Their Logic MAY be perfect - Or it may be completely wrong.. Because we don't have enough information to FORM a fully realised picture.
Yes, we do know the true nature of the CU. It is being rammed to live in 2 weeks; the devs are not hiding any wonderful surprises for us in a back room, that would defeat the whole point of testing! Unless the devs are persuaded to dump the whole thing (no chance), what we see is what we'll get, give or take adjustment of some details. The precise tweaking is the only thing we don't know for sure, but in broad outline the CU is set in stone.
EdOWar
Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:37 am
#15
builderbob992 wrote:
howdy folks. just noticed an interesting post on the flurry galaxie forum. it seems that swg is going on sale in 127 days and will be available for the ps2/x box. am i right in assuming that a console game played with a game pad is not near as complex a game as a pc based 1?. would that not explain the "dumbing down" and simplification of the major crafting proffesions? if soe is placing swg on a console game would they not be targeting younger players and more partime players? the simplification of combat and crafting seems to point to it. THIS GAME IS DYING!! i have played since just past launch and loved it for the complexity of the crafting proffesions. the crafting "upgrade" will be ....?
and has anyone else noticed the real money auction that is going to be tested in eq? nice timing on soe part to have that up and ready to go for august when swp ps2 comes out
If true, that explains a lot of things. The console gaming market is growing faster than the PC market...it's a much wider customer base. That might explain why SOE doesn't seem to care if they lose a lot of the veteran players...they mayfigure they can more than make up for it from the massive console gamer market.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Phaelyn
Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:04 am
#16
CasualMaker wrote:
Phaelyn wrote:
They are basing their Logic on what is on TC 4-16-2005, and NOT what will be coming Live. Fact is, we don't KNOW the true nature of the CU, because it is NOT fully shown to us yet. Their Logic MAY be perfect - Or it may be completely wrong.. Because we don't have enough information to FORM a fully realised picture.
Yes, we do know the true nature of the CU. It is being rammed to live in 2 weeks; the devs are not hiding any wonderful surprises for us in a back room, that would defeat the whole point of testing! Unless the devs are persuaded to dump the whole thing (no chance), what we see is what we'll get, give or take adjustment of some details. The precise tweaking is the only thing we don't know for sure, but in broad outline the CU is set in stone.
Did you Beta JTL? Many of us who DID can tell you one very pertinent thing - What we were testing for JTL was SIGNIFICANTLY different with what came out the day JTL went to Live. Things we had bugged and hadn't been addressed were fixed or removed. It was NOT the same thing we had been testing, although quite a few major points were still in. Many of teh JTL testers feared that JTL wasn't ready, and would negatively implement onto the ground game - We were wrong, and it loaded just fine.
THAT is why i say we don't know the full scope of the CU. The Past constantly is repeated in the future - The CU will be no different. Things we haven't been shown WILL happen when it comes to Live. Speculation is impossible even in the BROADEST sense, because a LOT of things most likely are relative to ROTW - And the ones testing ROTW are under an NDA to tell us NOTHING.
The Poster of the article was painting a picture of doom and gloom without full knowledge. Mind you, I *never* said he was wrong - He may indeed be right in the end.. but that can't be known until the CU hits Live.
Message Edited by Phaelyn on 04-21-2005 12:05 PM
Draxias
Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:27 am
#17
I agree with you Phaelyn. I wasn't a player of SWG when JTL came in but actually it is a tactic a lot of companies use: make a beta worse or different than it will really be so when it is released players think "ah, it isn't as bad as expected" so you forget is not as good as they said it was going to be.
So on the question: what economy? the answer is so obvious... SOE economy, not players economy, is what it's all about.
Pawlin
Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:04 pm
#18
Post CU armor will max out at 60% resists.See this thread
Resource requirements are increasing for armor.And armor is also going to be simplier to make (from what I gather).
THe nerf to effectiveness might decrease demand for armor. The increased requirements could pull up costs. Simplier experimentation might increase supply. We also don't know a lot about how fast armor will decay post CU so it could be slower or faster and that could either increase or decrease demand.
How those 3 things balance out? Really we can't say until it goes live.
slave138
Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:52 pm
#19
I was in the JTL Beta and will be the first to admit it went live with most of the problems ironed out. I was also in the SWG Beta and that was a completely different story. Every problem we detailed was still there live along with a host of others we hadn't even noticed or expected. Many of those problems still exist to some extent or other.
I'm just trying to figure out which beta this will resemble more. On one hand, they have had time to learn from past mistakes and might pull it off as (relatively) painlessly as JTL. On the other hand, these changes go to the core of the game instead of being what amounted to the grafting of one game to another -- in that case, it stands to reason that it will not be anywhere near as smooth as JTL.
A final consideration goes to the player reception. JTL did not take anything away from the game as a whole (other than people on-planet for awhile) and added some much needed content. Those who absolutely hated it did not have to purchase it or play it, but could continue to play the game the way they liked. The CU is NOTHING like that. It stands to take a lot away from the game long-time players have become accustomed to.
The dumbing down of the game for platform play will undoubtedly alienate many of those who liked SWG for its POTENTIAL variety and complexity. I will admit it has me very concerned. There was a lot of potential for this game to be something interesting - instead they made it repetitive and boring even with the variety of possibilities available to each player. If it gets simplified and remains repetitive, it will effectively kill the last hope I have for this game being the one I want to play.
Evidence of the platform release
I'm just trying to figure out which beta this will resemble more. On one hand, they have had time to learn from past mistakes and might pull it off as (relatively) painlessly as JTL. On the other hand, these changes go to the core of the game instead of being what amounted to the grafting of one game to another -- in that case, it stands to reason that it will not be anywhere near as smooth as JTL.
A final consideration goes to the player reception. JTL did not take anything away from the game as a whole (other than people on-planet for awhile) and added some much needed content. Those who absolutely hated it did not have to purchase it or play it, but could continue to play the game the way they liked. The CU is NOTHING like that. It stands to take a lot away from the game long-time players have become accustomed to.
The dumbing down of the game for platform play will undoubtedly alienate many of those who liked SWG for its POTENTIAL variety and complexity. I will admit it has me very concerned. There was a lot of potential for this game to be something interesting - instead they made it repetitive and boring even with the variety of possibilities available to each player. If it gets simplified and remains repetitive, it will effectively kill the last hope I have for this game being the one I want to play.
Evidence of the platform release
rversaw
Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:01 pm
#20
um, no. that is old, and no longer real. i highly doubt it will ever reach the PS2
CharPrime
Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:18 pm
#21
Phaelyn wrote:
CasualMaker wrote:
Phaelyn wrote:
They are basing their Logic on what is on TC 4-16-2005, and NOT what will be coming Live. Fact is, we don't KNOW the true nature of the CU, because it is NOT fully shown to us yet. Their Logic MAY be perfect - Or it may be completely wrong.. Because we don't have enough information to FORM a fully realised picture.
Yes, we do know the true nature of the CU. It is being rammed to live in 2 weeks; the devs are not hiding any wonderful surprises for us in a back room, that would defeat the whole point of testing! Unless the devs are persuaded to dump the whole thing (no chance), what we see is what we'll get, give or take adjustment of some details. The precise tweaking is the only thing we don't know for sure, but in broad outline the CU is set in stone.
Did you Beta JTL? Many of us who DID can tell you one very pertinent thing - What we were testing for JTL was SIGNIFICANTLY different with what came out the day JTL went to Live. Things we had bugged and hadn't been addressed were fixed or removed. It was NOT the same thing we had been testing, although quite a few major points were still in. Many of teh JTL testers feared that JTL wasn't ready, and would negatively implement onto the ground game - We were wrong, and it loaded just fine.
THAT is why i say we don't know the full scope of the CU. The Past constantly is repeated in the future - The CU will be no different. Things we haven't been shown WILL happen when it comes to Live. Speculation is impossible even in the BROADEST sense, because a LOT of things most likely are relative to ROTW - And the ones testing ROTW are under an NDA to tell us NOTHING.
The Poster of the article was painting a picture of doom and gloom without full knowledge. Mind you, I *never* said he was wrong - He may indeed be right in the end.. but that can't be known until the CU hits Live.
Message Edited by Phaelyn on 04-21-2005 12:05 PM
lol jtl, who is in space anymore? so but the time they get the cu right, who is playing anymore
cl0kwerq
Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:38 am
#22
Phaelyn wrote:
CasualMaker wrote:
Yes, we do know the true nature of the CU. It is being rammed to live in 2 weeks; the devs are not hiding any wonderful surprises for us in a back room, that would defeat the whole point of testing! Unless the devs are persuaded to dump the whole thing (no chance), what we see is what we'll get, give or take adjustment of some details. The precise tweaking is the only thing we don't know for sure, but in broad outline the CU is set in stone.
Phaelyn wrote: They are basing their Logic on what is on TC 4-16-2005, and NOT what will be coming Live. Fact is, we don't KNOW the true nature of the CU, because it is NOT fully shown to us yet. Their Logic MAY be perfect - Or it may be completely wrong.. Because we don't have enough information to FORM a fully realised picture.
Did you Beta JTL? Many of us who DID can tell you one very pertinent thing - What we were testing for JTL was SIGNIFICANTLY different with what came out the day JTL went to Live. Things we had bugged and hadn't been addressed were fixed or removed. It was NOT the same thing we had been testing, although quite a few major points were still in. Many of teh JTL testers feared that JTL wasn't ready, and would negatively implement onto the ground game - We were wrong, and it loaded just fine.
I did JTL Beta, and the Beta-Live conversion was basically a cut and paste from what I recall. I was all for it though, because star wars = ships that can go into the stars. Now there were a few tweaks to sound and graphical wowees!but the gameplay and mission system was exactly the same, and has since been expanded upon.
THAT is why i say we don't know the full scope of the CU. The Past constantly is repeated in the future - The CU will be no different. Things we haven't been shown WILL happen when it comes to Live. Speculation is impossible even in the BROADEST sense, because a LOT of things most likely are relative to ROTW - And the ones testing ROTW are under an NDA to tell us NOTHING.
The Poster of the article was painting a picture of doom and gloom without full knowledge. Mind you, I *never* said he was wrong - He may indeed be right in the end.. but that can't be known until the CU hits Live.
Doom and gloom? C'mon, you're overstating it a bit. Not that others aren't, but please try not to take valid points and explain them away with rhymes.
Message Edited by Phaelyn on 04-21-2005 12:05 PM
Sorry to disagree, I did it as gently as I could 
I ran across a post in the AS forum today. Although I don't agree with his pricing numbers and his conclusion ignores some of his data, if you look at the number crunching you'll see an interesting trend for the AS profession.
I haven't found any info on the effectiveness of armor as of yet, but the new resource requirements will bring the quality of armor down, at least for a month or two until all the resources spawn. I guess they got armor working now (hooray!) and they lowered the FP cost for factional armor, but nothing crafted on the TC yet even comes close to the frog armor.
Tavtrin
Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:41 am
#23
"So on the question: what economy? the answer is so obvious... SOE economy, not players economy, is what it's all about."
Yeah this is a business, that is obvious without even buying the game
Yeah this is a business, that is obvious without even buying the game
RelicOMO
Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:32 am
#24
Phaelyn wrote:
Did you Beta JTL? Many of us who DID can tell you one very pertinent thing - What we were testing for JTL was SIGNIFICANTLY different with what came out the day JTL went to Live. Things we had bugged and hadn't been addressed were fixed or removed. It was NOT the same thing we had been testing, although quite a few major points were still in. Many of teh JTL testers feared that JTL wasn't ready, and would negatively implement onto the ground game - We were wrong, and it loaded just fine.
That is true, but the broad concept of JTL did not change. In beta it was still a twitch based flightsim, and in live it wasa twitch based flightsim. These concepts did not change. SWG 2 is the same - in concept, it is a level based system, and thus in live, it will be a level based system. And the level based system is at the heart of 90% of the things that are cause for concern.
The level based system is not a 'balance', or an upgrade - it is a revision of the core of the game, moving character development away from gaining more skills and equipment, and towards gaining levels. In essence, it does not balance professions or equipment - it renders them obsolete, since it doesn't really matter if you are Rifleman or Carbineer, all that matters is your level. It doesn't really matter if you can wear slightly better armour or have a better weapon, level affects the outcome of combat much, much more. It attempts to overlay a level system onto a system that has been skill and equipment based for two years, and the effects will change a lot more than combat. Noncombat aspects of the game, such as crafting and entertainers, are being marginalised to make their effect on combat virtually nothing, and this is being done specifically because it is the freeform, creative crafting system that has created much of the perceived issues with SWG. It has been the freeform crafting system that has allowed massive armour, buffs, etc. But instead of tweaking what we can make, and bringing it into balance, the response with SWG 2 has been to make all crafted goods virtually identical, much as they are in other level based systems like EQ and WoW, and then to make the equipment have a negligible impact on combat - your level matters much more.
In these systems, noncombat aspects are so trivial that they are sidelines for every character. None of these games require you to limit your level to craft goods that are the same as everyone else. Yet that's exactly what SWG 2 asks us - it asks us to limit our level, the single most important factor in the game, to make semi-useful equipment, or to be a dancer that serves no real function. SWG has been more than just combat, though it has been combat centric - it has been a thriving world, with real estate, economy, and genuine communities based around virtually no combat. But it is combat centric, and so these things exist to support combat - crafting, entertaining, all of it. Yet now these noncombat aspects are being marginalised to have nearly no effect on the combat centre of the game, and their reward for this negligible impact is to be also limited in level, so that they cannot go and enjoy areas of the game that their friends might be going to.
Patching a level based system onto a game that has evolved for two years without it is not the right thing to do. It certainly isn't the right thing to do when it wasn't even necessary to improve the game. And that level based system is one core concept that we won't see change between now and live.
I8TheWorm
Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:24 am
#25
Draxias wrote:I agree with you Phaelyn. I wasn't a player of SWG when JTL came in but actually it is a tactic a lot of companies use: make a beta worse or different than it will really be so when it is released players think "ah, it isn't as bad as expected" so you forget is not as good as they said it was going to be.So on the question: what economy? the answer is so obvious... SOE economy, not players economy, is what it's all about.
Back the reality train up a bit. Did you really just say it's a tactic of companies (a software company in this particular instance) to beta buggier code than they actually release?
I've been a professional developer since 1991. In that time I've worked all over the country as a consultant for some VERY large companies, and some very small companies. There are a few constants that seem to apply to software compnies.
- No matter who's in charge of IT, marketing drives software development
- No matter how extensively you test code, bugs will be found upon release
- No group of developers thinks alike
- Often the best ideas are left out of releases because they take the most time to develop
However, I have NEVER heard of a development team holding back code from Beta simply to wow people once the software is released into production. You WANT ALL of the code to be tested in Beta, because that's where 90% of the bugs are found. The last thing you want is for surprises after the initial release that could force the development team to work around the clock patching software (which instantiates it's own set of problems).
cl0kwerq
Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:08 pm
#26
I8TheWorm wrote:
Draxias wrote:
I agree with you Phaelyn. I wasn't a player of SWG when JTL came in but actually it is a tactic a lot of companies use: make a beta worse or different than it will really be so when it is released players think "ah, it isn't as bad as expected" so you forget is not as good as they said it was going to be.
So on the question: what economy? the answer is so obvious... SOE economy, not players economy, is what it's all about.
Back the reality train up a bit. Did you really just say it's a tactic of companies (a software company in this particular instance) to beta buggier code than they actually release?
I've been a professional developer since 1991. In that time I've worked all over the country as a consultant for some VERY large companies, and some very small companies. There are a few constants that seem to apply to software compnies.
- No matter who's in charge of IT, marketing drives software development
- No matter how extensively you test code, bugs will be found upon release
- No group of developers thinks alike
- Often the best ideas are left out of releases because they take the most time to develop
However, I have NEVER heard of a development team holding back code from Beta simply to wow people once the software is released into production. You WANT ALL of the code to be tested in Beta, because that's where 90% of the bugs are found. The last thing you want is for surprises after the initial release that could force the development team to work around the clock patching software (which instantiates it's own set of problems).
You also bring another point to mind. I'm not experienced in the ways of big or small software development, but in my own amaturish hacking (in the literal sense, not ub3r l33t sense) my way through a few programs I've often started by testing things that I wanted to put in, but never made it to the final project. It's possible that perhaps this CU will really be more of a CUrb. That is, most of the major changes won't go through, and the solid good ones will. There are some good points to what they're doing on TC.....just not the majority of change, IMO, of course.