Business And Economy Archive
Thread: what economy? Worth a read
Implementor wrote:
http://swgcraft.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17575
Phaelyn wrote:
Implementor wrote:
http://swgcraft.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17575
Interesting read, but teh poster misses one KEY fact - whether they realize it or not.
They are basing their Logic on what is on TC 4-16-2005, and NOT what will be coming Live. Fact is, we don't KNOW the true nature of the CU, because it is NOT fully shown to us yet. Their Logic MAY be perfect - Or it may be completely wrong.. Because we don't have enough information to FORM a fully realised picture.
Armor and Weapons in the CU have only been shown to us in their base forms. Lots of MOBs and planetary areas haven't even been BALANCED yet - Yet most of us are making assumptions based on information now - Information which quite frankly may be utterly different tomorrow.
tell me you belive in the magic bullet or the easter bunny. if you are a good boy, santa will visit.
CharPrime wrote:
tell me you belive in the magic bullet or the easter bunny. if you are a good boy, santa will visit.
Message Edited by Phaelyn on 04-19-2005 10:44 AM
Phaelyn wrote:
CharPrime wrote:
tell me you belive in the magic bullet or the easter bunny. if you are a good boy, santa will visit.So sorry I refuse to bleat like a sheep and follow the doom and gloom crowd. That must REALLY bother you, since you took the time to write out such a well thought out and thought provoking rebuttal.Message Edited by Phaelyn on 04-19-2005 10:44 AM
I agree with you partially and I'm therefore waiting til the CURB goes live to make my final sarcastic comments. Unfortunately there have been plenty of confirmed changes to get me worked up. I am an Armorsmith. As for the other things that might come out not screwed up, I've not heard anything from anyone official stating that things will be worked out even if they can't get specific about it.
As for our economy, that's the one thing I'm not concerned about. It might be off a bit at the start but it'll balance out. We don't have NPC vendors (yet) so that's one thing they just can't screw up no matter how hard they try (global vendor search). They can only adjust it's depth for the players.
Pawlin wrote:
I'm in agreement on Phaelyn on this.
People are really overreacting right now. Its like a mob of chickens with their heads cut off.
From what I've read on the forums lately, the CU is thought to lead to / cause all of the below:
Turn SWG into every other MMO (apparenlty they are all alike except this one)
Actually, they kind of are. When I did the Matrix Online Beta I was reminded of Diablo 2. And from talking with people who have gotten their level 50 characters in Final Fantasy Online, Everquest, and World of Warcraft, they agree that the similarities are too numerous to simply dismiss as coincidence.
- Make armor completely useless
This seems like an extremist viewpoint used to make "the other side" look bad. Sorry, I calls em likes I sees em.
- Make buffs useless
Once again you've quoted someone overstating the matter. Any enhancement is useful, but it's been said by the Development Team that buffs will not be as powerful, thus making some content which could be done with only one person requiring more people, and rather than letting the game system be a springboard to allow the player to accomplish what they like, artificially limit the strength that one character can posses.
- Make it so that you can't kill anything worse than a durni without 8 people grouped.
I don't know where you got that, but it's obviously nonsense and should have been ignored.
- Completely ruin all crafting
Once again you quote an extremist viewpoint. Being an architect you've never had more than two lines to experiment on, and making harvesters is a lot different than making weapons or armor, or droids or speederbikes. What most people really fear is that the complexity will be removed and replaced with a +/- system, where adding to one thing detracts from another, which I am personally against, as it seems to go against the idea of experimentation, and would mean that Amazing successes could be as much of a hinderance as a critical failure if implemented improperly. Obviously we will have to wait and see, as the Developers don't like to tell us these sorts of things overtly.
- Make it so crafters will be repeatedly 1 hit incapped by krettles case we can't wear armor (please disregard that armor is also now useless)
Kreetles I doubt, but for the mid-end MOB's, such as desert demons and the occaisional Tusken Sniper, these are valid concerns. I think the problem is actually the fact that there is no longer the choice. Before a crafter could get buffed and put on a full suit of composite. They couldn't kill anything, but were at least afforded some level of protection and a chance to get away. Either to take the risk, or to take the time to properly protect yourself....now there is no choice, and no, shall we say, "realistic" form of protection (armor vs. grouping). One would make sense, the other does not in any realistic or intuitive form.
- Either cause massive inflation or destroy the market for all crated goods (take your pick)
This is just what every crafter fears, and many voice. I'm sad to say I was one of them when the Galactic Vendor Search first came out, but have since learned to take a slightly more moderate stance.
- Ruin Roleplay
I believe this is a valid concern. While not "ruining" it, they will take away many aspects of the freedom you had with your character. You can still roleplay a fighter, or a doctor, or a merchant, but levels will have an effect on this. What it is exactly remains to be seen.
- Destroy the Entertainer profession
Unless they totally remove it, the entertainer profession isn't going to be destroyed, and everyone knows that. However, the usefulness is in question, and it is also a valid question, when not stated like an extremist.
- Make people cancel at least 2 of their 4 subscriptions
This just sounds like a dig at people who want to have more than one character on each server, and shouldn't have been included.
- Force people to get more accounts just to be able to play the game (sinister plan by SOE to make $$)
This seems to contradict the last statement, so I'm not really sure where you got it, but doesn't really apply to the discussion, and should have been dismissed by all who read it as paranoid rambling.
- Everyone will CTD every 2 seconds.
I'd respond, but I don't know what CTD means.
- ATST's will be invincible and rebels will never be able to kill one, ever.
Let it not be said that you don't have a gift for overstatement. This, however, seems to be a minor part of the question of game play balance, and can be thought of as such without need to actually put it into writing.
- Every crafter who has high quality resources stockpiled will find their resources are instantly worthless post CU.
Once again, not worthless, but when you change the resource requirements on items, such as they are with armor, you're bound to see a real degradation in the ability of even the best armorsmiths to make the best armor, as would seem to befit their time invested into their character. So, in a way, while not making them worthless, which is just extremist speak, it will devalue the work they have put into collecting the resources.
- CM's will be super uber after CU (but thats fair cause we all know how gimpy they've been)
This goes back to the question of "balance", and are they really doing it, or are they just implenting a new system which will have a host of new balance issues, which begs the question of why implement a new system, which is the heart of the discussion. Of course, one profession is only a minor concern next to the bigger picture.
- Everyone's experimentation tapes will be useless.
We see again here a valid question that has yet to be answered, and so people are right in asking it. People have spent in-game fortunes on these things, and others hunt them as their "profession". It seems to be a valid concern towards people who have geared themselves to this play-style.
- NS biceps will be deleted or turned into pink shirts or something like that.
I don't think I've ever seen this brought up as a main point, but it also begs the question of high end loot, and the people who have geared themselves towards getting it. A play-style is at stake, and whether you play that way or not is irrelevant, as a lot of people obviously choose to, and it's nice to have the freedom to choose.
- 70% of players hate the CU.
Statistics have been used by both sides (mostly extremists) to "prove" that they're right. Statistics have been shown that if both sides are to be trusted 180% of the people hate/love the game, and 20% don't take polls. There's not accurate statistical representation for either side.
- SOE is rigging the polls to make it look like people like the CU when they don't. If the poll says people don't like it then it mysteriously changes afterwards somehow.
I think we all know that SOE has a good PR department, and a PR departments job is to make the company and their decisions look good. If you take what the PR releases at what they say, when you get into the game you'll be somewhat disappointed. I doubt if SoE is rigging anything, but it is not completely out of the question to suggest that perhaps they are putting a more positive spin on player opinions than is actually the case.
- With the CU skill respec a Jedi will able to go from Padawan to Double master overnight!
I believe this is a decision that hasn't been reached yet, so either side commenting on it is just pure speculation, however a lot of the concerns you've put here are not.
- Armorsmiths will either stop making armor or they will charge 1M per suit.
Since this is already a reality (that is to say, some have, and some do, respectively) It can go into the same category as "destroying" professions, which hasn't occured. The changes that they seem to be implementing (and based on the JTL beta, resource requirements on TC will remain when it goes live) aren't making a lot of armorsmiths happy, as it will mean a pause in business for readjustment.
- Post CU a Master rifleman /MBH / 0004 CM will be able to destroy a Jedi without the Jedi even getting in range.
Obviously a concern, as jedi are supposed to be the mythical "bad boys" of the galaxy. To make them just another profession AND still make them so hard to get seems ludicrous. The Jedi's have a place in the Star Wars universe, whether or not people like it, but their system does need some refinement.
- I also just read that for CU they are going to hand out ADK's to newbies.
I just read that the earth is flat. Does that make it a valid point, worth mentioning here?
- EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is getting nerfed
Extremist, pointless, no merit, or base to judge it on.
- The CU is really about turning SWG into an FPS instead of an RPG
That's based on the new default control style. I think we can all dismiss this as pure foolishness. There's already a Star Wars FPS series out there. By re-writing this you're just giving credence to extremest dogma while letting the valid concerns get swept under the rug without having to actually examine them for validity.
- weapons have a set max damage which they can do. This renders acklay, geo, and krayt weapons...useless
Weapons have always had a set max damage they can do, based on the "enhancements" and resources available on the server.
A number of those items are direct quotes. Try and guess which ones!
I could go through and find every extremist for the CU, and post all their silliest ideas in a sarcastic way, and that way I wouldn't have to address the actual valid concerns of a lot of players, and could easily classify them all as "whiners" and dismiss it at that, however I choose to show people's concerns a little more respect, and tend to think about what would cause such an uproar, and try to defend whatever view-point I held. Saying that anyone who doesn't like it needs to shut up is not a valid argument, or rebuttal. What I would really like to see is more communication from the developers, with the gamers and not press about what they intend to do about those people with valid concerns as to the game-play mechanics of the game. Of course it's a free forum, so you're welcome to do and say as you like, just remember that I'm afforded the same privaledge, and so are the extremists, but that doesn't make me or them right.
Pointing out the extremists doesn't make the opinions of the moderates, though shared they may be, any less valid. The only arguments I've seen seem to center around things being TOTALLY out of whack and make EVERYONE quit, or things will be TOTALLY better and EVERYONE will buy the game. Neither are true, they're just debater's tactics at winning an argument. The linked post isn't trying to win arguments, but expressing real fear that a beloved product and enjoyable game could, and may well be changed to such an extent that it will be unrecognizable to the people who have been playing it, or so called "veterans", and that new players who have transferred from other MMO style RPG's will like it because it is incredibly similar to the experience they had while leveling in one of the other popular MMO's, such as, but not limited to, Everquest and World of Warcraft. Of course if this is what the majority of players want, then let it be done. I can say for myself that I had no desire to play the level game, as I have many console titles of the same caliber, and played Diablo 2 for almost2 years.
From my point of view, Star Wars Galaxies in its current form was appealing because of the range of things you could do. It wasn't limitless, but you could play different roles, and switch between them, and meld them as you saw fit, without any disadvantage, except those inherent to the professions that you chose, which is called "balance". It wasn't perfect, but it has been steadily improving, and becoming a unique and far more interesting system to play in than something as limiting as a class-based or level-based system, and thus my question, which has been asked by many people in many different ways: Why scrap a good system with promise and replace it with a system similar to that of other games?
And to my great dissatisfaction, I have recieved no answer justifying such a change. I've read PR statements, but those only frustrate me as my opinion is already formed, and they seek to make it different without offering any tangible reason. Telling me it is going to be great gives me very little reassurance, as it's very easy to pay lip-service to something and not back it up in any way. What most people want is not to quit the game,but to play it, and have some opportunity to have their input affect the gameplay to be more fulfilling to them as a game player.
Last I come to the point where each of us can agree: we all want to play a better game. The problem lies in what is better to some people is not better to others, and I don't believe that can be measured in a 1-5 rating system with limited amounts of input from players.
And to anyone who didn't bother to read the link, don't bother posting your opinions when you didn't bother to get something to formulate them on.
Message Edited by cl0kwerq on 04-19-2005 04:44 PM
Message Edited by Pawlin on 04-19-2005 05:21 PM
Message Edited by EdOWar on 04-19-2005 06:52 PM
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Turn SWG into every other MMO (apparenlty they are all alike except this one) - Make armor completely useless
- Make buffs useless
- Make it so that you can't kill anything worse than a durni without 8 people grouped.
- Completely ruin all crafting
- Make it so crafters will be repeatedly 1 hit incapped by krettles case we can't wear armor (please disregard that armor is also now useless)
- Either cause massive inflation or destroy the market for all crated goods (take your pick)
- Ruin Roleplay
- Destroy the Entertainer profession
- Make people cancel at least 2 of their 4 subscriptions
- Force people to get more accounts just to be able to play the game (sinister plan by SOE to make $$)
- Everyone will CTD every 2 seconds.
- ATST's will be invincible and rebels will never be able to kill one, ever.
- Every crafter who has high quality resources stockpiled will find their resources are instantly worthless post CU.
- CM's will be super uber after CU (but thats fair cause we all know how gimpy they've been)
- Everyone's experimentation tapes will be useless.
- NS biceps will be deleted or turned into pink shirts or something like that.
- 70% of players hate the CU.
- SOE is rigging the polls to make it look like people like the CU when they don't. If the poll says people don't like it then it mysteriously changes afterwards somehow.
- With the CU skill respec a Jedi will able to go from Padawan to Double master overnight!
- Armorsmiths will either stop making armor or they will charge 1M per suit.
- Post CU a Master rifleman /MBH / 0004 CM will be able to destroy a Jedi without the Jedi even getting in range.
- I also just read that for CU they are going to hand out ADK's to newbies.
- EVERYTHING and EVERYONE is getting nerfed
- The CU is really about turning SWG into an FPS instead of an RPG
- weapons have a set max damage which they can do. This renders acklay, geo, and krayt weapons...useless
A number of those items are direct quotes. Try and guess which ones!
Pawlin wrote:
Wow, you really weren't supposed to take that so seriously.
Yes I posted a lot of the extremist viewpoints. A lot of it was in jest / parody. I was trying to point out how those extremist views are silly.
BUt those extremist views are not at all hard to find and in fact are in a lot of the anti-CU posts we see in most forums now. There are a lot of people declaring that CU will ruin this thing or destroy that thing.
In fact the link from the original post has some of those views. The link in the OP is essentially based on assumptions of extremism and then draws conclusions from there.:
"Yes, being a Master Crafter yet also being a level 1 character and thus onehit incapped by anything in the wild will be a pain."
"the best armour on the server, the best weapons, the best everything, will make not one jot of difference in your PvP capability"
"the crafter does not need any equipment to survive hits. He only needs to be grouped with someone to increase his effective level. Armour, food, etc. - all meaningless."
"equipment is also being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't increase your level."
So the link from the OP is as guilty as anyone of spreading those extremist views.
I don't believe the CU will destroy the game any more than I believe CU will be perfect. But irrational, hatred of CU and screaming about how it will completely destroy things won't help and is really counter productive since SOE will just discount such arguments as crazy talk.
And right now crazy talk is ruling the day.
Message Edited by Pawlin on 04-19-2005 05:21 PM
okay, so I ranted a bit 
And I completely agree. Some of his views are a bit extremist, and he would have done better to ommit them as speculation rather than justified points, but when he talks about the level based system I think he has a very valid point. His arguments are pretty weak, but the point itself remains valid, and that's all I was really trying to say in the rant.
Something that's been bothering me lately on the forums are the childish arguments that seem to be accumulating. People with valid concerns are being dismissed as nay-sayers and whiners, while some people seem to have blind faith in the Development team to do this all without any customer input. I guess I just felt the need to sound-off for those people who aren't whining, but are a bit concerned about such a fundamental change to the game they've grown to love. Of course, nothing is certain until it is certain, We can all only hope for the best, and in the meantime play the game we love.
Like you said, it seems crazy talk is ruling. Maybe the few sane people left ought to take a more ambitious role in countering the extremists while preserving the good points, and letting crazy go sell itself somewhere else.
cl0kwerq wrote:
Pawlin wrote:
- weapons have a set max damage which they can do. This renders acklay, geo, and krayt weapons...useless
Weapons have always had a set max damage they can do, based on the "enhancements" and resources available on the server.
True to a point. The crafting of an unenhanced weapon in live is capped by the resources used in the crafting of that weapon. During the crafting of that weapon, enhancers may be added that will push the final stats well beyond that cap, and slicing can push a weapon even higher still. Thanks to some great tissues, a nice barrel, and a 32% slice, the last Geo Blaster I crafted was 270% enhanced over an unsliced one crafted with no enhancers.
WS/Smugglers are posting to the WS forum that there is now a hard cap on a weapons DPS during crafting. Weapons cannot be experimented or sliced beyond that point. Well crafted base weapons are being reported to hit the cap at the upper end of the slicing spectrum. Highly enhanced weapons are reportedly unsliceable, as they were capped durring assembely.
IF this system goes live, what reason is there for a player to carry an enhanced weapon? If all weapons can be brought up to the cap, making them all the same, where is my pride instriving to make the bigger better weapon? If it goes live as is, what reason would anyone have to be a smith,when they've beenreduced to assemble monkeys.
Message Edited by Va-Mei on 04-20-2005 02:28 PM