Business And Economy Archive
Thread: The Customer in a World of Dedicated Unattended Entertainers, B&E Forum Edition.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=ranger&message.id=87257
Ramona_Garcia wrote:Well, that's one BIG problem - the way countless players have been conditioned to think they "need" buffs to do anything in game. Me, I remember how it was back in 03. I know what I can do without buffs, and so would anyone lelse if they just tried it out. The way some players play their professions, master them even, without really knowing what they do, without knowing anythiung else than buffing up, getting composite and doing an area attack on a lair is pathetic.
Can you farm Krayts without buffs? Can you hunt Nightsisters without buffs? Can you PvP without buffs (and I don't mean just running from the cloner)?
Didn't think so.
FrozenDron wrote:
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
Well, that's one BIG problem - the way countless players have been conditioned to think they "need" buffs to do anything in game. Me, I remember how it was back in 03. I know what I can do without buffs, and so would anyone lelse if they just tried it out. The way some players play their professions, master them even, without really knowing what they do, without knowing anythiung else than buffing up, getting composite and doing an area attack on a lair is pathetic.
Can you farm Krayts without buffs? Can you hunt Nightsisters without buffs? Can you PvP without buffs (and I don't mean just running from the cloner)?
Didn't think so.
Well, if you think that's all there is to the game, your loss. And I pvp just fine without buffs - in space, where actual skill, not some template and gear combo counts.
lexington23 wrote:
You are forgetting an important fact. The patrons who choose buff bots over live entertainment most often do not want your service. If they did want your service they would come to you wether a buff bot was available or not. If the buff bots are taken away then you will have many new customers who do not want to see you, grumpy and in your face.
"you attract more Kreetles with Carbosyrup than Sarlacc bile."
This is your quote from above. You might want to write that quote into a macro because you are going to need it alot more often if buff bots go away. They won't react like you think either. They won't have a hearty chuckle as they appreciate your wit, they will more likely resent your fortune cookie wisdom and become even grumpier.
Try looking at buffbots in a more positive light. They are a filter, a filter that takes away people who don't want to visit you. The buffbots are in fact providing a valuable service to improve the livedancer's and musician's game experience. There is room for live entertainment and bots on the same servier.
As for the bots, they are not run by the axis of evil. There aren't going to be any entertainer bot conspiricies or mass denials of service. Yes, sometimes you will be banned from a bot, but there will always be another to use so it is not a problem. The bot owner community lacks the desire or unity to shut out people in this way.
And you know what? When the day comes that i'm banned from my favorite bot, and i see you live entertainingin the cantina, you will be my savior and I'll thank you for getting me out of my fix. Buffbots make everyones life better, even entertainers.
Message Edited by lexington23 on 03-16-2005 07:06 AM
I am going to pay special attention to your post, not because I do not feel your opinion is important. In fact, I feel it is utterly important to the sucess or failure of the entertainment professions. Because we hear this sort of argument a lot. And yet, I would venture to say that I really do not quite understand the rationale behind these sort of arguments.
I would venture to say that patrons who actively prefer a buffbot over what live players do has nothing to do with a lack of desire to be amused. Instead, I would argue that the very nature of the buffing system itself causes antagonism, mistrust, and resentment between two live players.
Take battle fatiuge and wound healing, for example. These mechanics of BF healing and mind wound healing do not require any conversation whatsoever. All they require is an active performer, and a patron to /watch or /listen.And itsbecause the system is so intuitive, stress-free, and in the background of everything that is going on in the cantina; it allows both patrons and performers the freedom to augment their experience in any way they so choose. Patrons can craft, patrons can check their E-Mail, and patrons oftentimes are rather pleased to look or experience something different for a change.
I believe this isn't a mechanic that was invented just so we would have something to do. I am of the opinion that even if entertainment was never a playable option, a combat simulation in a persistant world would have to simulate this logistical fact in some form, if only to simulate the reality of stress under fire.
That being said, many would consider them useless timesinks that serve no purpose, but I would argue that it provides a much needed rotational mechanic that assures a player is not "hogging content" that other players are wanting to experience. It also is a limiting factor that makes realistic strategic decision making possible. When we examine the reality of soldiers in combat, we find that troops cannot maintain full operational efficiency indefinately. Even the best troops will lose effectiveness over time in a combat conditions. It is why the first rate armies and navies of the world take combat rotation, recreation, and morale issues very, very seriously.
Nowthe buff does require conversation and interaction when two live players attempt it. But instead of fun, lighthearted, immersive, and spontaneous conversation, it is conversation that both parties think is an imposition, filled with apprehention, loathing, loss of continuity, force,and uncertainty. Notice I said both parties. Both the buffer and the one being buffed. Because to tell you the truth, I resent like Dathomir the fact that the developers thought this "Sad Gimmick" of ours was something that would promote the social interaction between patrons and performers, and mitigate the unattended phenomenon.
What doI really do that is so valuable under this buffing system?I simply do an authorization. An /invite or a /setperform. A silly thing that causes all sorts of headache in all manner of ways. And to prove how silly it is, we have master level characters parked in cantinas 24/7 who think nothing of this authorization. Indeed, I am convinced that the November 3rd buffing changes nerfed me, nerfed the atmosphere in the cantina, and nerfedthe playability of thisclass.
This buffing systemhas turned the easy going, hassle-free cantina experience into a situation where having fun is the last thing on anyone's mind, and made unattended entertainers the only safe, efficient, and hassle-free alternative to provide this mechanic.
Because I agree. Patrons don't want to talk to us. And they do not, because they never quite know what the live performer expects in exchange for a /setperform or an /invite. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have reason to suspect that the patrons are saying these sorts of questions to themselves when a live player is buffing them:
"Does thisentertainer know what the heck he or she is doing?"
"Will I ever get out of here with a buff in any reasonable amount of time?"
"What should I tip for this buff, if anything?"
"The entertainer didn't ask for pay up front, so is it free?
"How much should I tip so that he or she doesn't get mad, but doesn't end up costing me more than this headache is really worth?"
"Will he or she get mad if its a bank tip?"
"Will he or she get mad if its a regular tip?"
"Does she or he expect me to talk?"
"If I don't talk, will she or he get mad and storm out, sticking me with a poor buff?"
"Its been some time. I think I can get the heck out of here, but he or she didn't say anything. What if he or she isn't even there to tell me?"
"Will he or she get mad if I send her a /tell?"
"Where should I be looking? At /groupchat? At spatial?"
"If this buff doesn't work out, will he or she refund my money?"
"If this buff doesn't work out, will he or she be willing to give me another one?"
"I have to answer the phone, but I am in the middle of a buff. Will he or she get angry? Or stop the buff prematurely?"
"Oh my goodness? His or her action is getting low. I hope I have stims."
"I hate having to sit here and hope everything works out."
Am I wrong, ladies and gentlemen, that these aren't the sort of things that go through your mind when you get a buff from a live player? This is what goes through my mind as a live performer:
"Oh drat! Another 'Can u buff me' /tell. Will I be hated if I tell him I'm on my way out?"
"Will he or she get mad if I ask for pay up front?"
"If I do not ask for pay up front, will this patron tip me at all?"
"Will I ever get back to doing fun things in any reasonable amount of time?"
"The patron wants an /invite buff, but I am in a group with a synch routine. Should I /disband?"
"I am the group leader, I cannot /disband, and nobody wants to take the group over. What should I do?"
"Does this patron expect me to talk?"
"Will the patron get mad if I ask him to drop the rifle so I can see the clapping animation?"
"If the buff doesn't work, will the patron hate me?"
"Will the patron give me the opportunity to try again? If the patron does, have I already forefitted any chance of a tip?"
"I have to answer the phone, but I am in the middle of a buff. What do I do?"
"The buff did not take. Should I give the tip back?"
"I think it was enough flourishes in enough time, but I do not know for sure."
"He keeps saying how much longer, but I cannot respond with any accuracy."
"Should I talk? If I talk, will I miss my mark?"
"If I don't make this headache fun for the patron by talking, will I earn no tip?"
"If I am lightheared, will the patron take it as a sign that I am not pursuing the procedure with all the seriousness and care he or she expects?"
"Does my group hate me for leaving them in order to buff this patron? Will I ever get back in?"
"Another patron asked me for a buff, but I'm with this patron, and it was done via /setperform. Will he get mad if I tell him to wait?"
"Was he /watching when I told him to /watch?"
"Is the patron only saying they did not get the buff? Or did they actually get it, and want to pull one over on me? (Musician)"
"I am going to have to stop, because I need to stim. Will the patron get mad that I had to stop early? Will the patron screw up the procedure while I do it?"
"I hate having to deal with so much uncertainty that I have to somehow take responsibility for if something goes wrong that is not my fault."
So you see, no wonder nobody who is looking for a buff is in any mood to be lighthearted. There is so much mistrust, uncertainty, and factors to consider that its best to just leave well enough alone, and see the buffbot.
So I say eliminate /setperform and the group buff. Make it so all a patron need do is /watch, like it does withwound healing. Let's take away the thing that makes buffbots beneficent, take away their need to spam instructions while we are at it, and make it so players tip us because they want to, not because they feel they have to. Let the patrons take charge of their own buff, and stick with what works from both our ends: performers perform, and patrons /watch and /listen. Let us do away with this "Sad Gimmick," and make it like the mechanic nobody has a problem with: wound healing. Totally passive. After all, what is a buff other than "healing in reverse?"
So no, lexington23, buffbots are not the enemy as much as this buffing system promotes macroed routinization, and makes what live entertainers do that much harder. I promise there will be a difference in entertainer and patron relations if the procedure were made passive, intuitive, and stress free.
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 03-16-2005 11:59 PM
I learned two things from that experience: 1) Many ATK entertainers are very funny, engaging people who really actually enjoy their jobs. 2) I personally so hate entertaining that I deleted my buffer and turned him into another combat alt.
Now, regarding your idea: I think it is BRILLIANT to make buffing passive. I think that will solve 99.999% of the problems.
I would add one more thing: I think entertainers should get a "credit leak" from the game system as long as they are buffing a person.
For example: person 1 comes into cantina and watches dancer for 3 minutes to get mind buff. During the three minutes, the game delivers 500cr to the entertainer. Once the buff is *maxed* that flow STOPS. THe folow also only comes to entertainers who are being /watched
lordsegan wrote:
First of all, let me say I am a player who bought a second account to make a buff bot. In about a week of grinding I made master musician, mostly playing AFK, but not entirely.
I learned two things from that experience: 1) Many ATK entertainers are very funny, engaging people who really actually enjoy their jobs. 2) I personally so hate entertaining that I deleted my buffer and turned him into another combat alt.
Now, regarding your idea: I think it is BRILLIANT to make buffing passive. I think that will solve 99.999% of the problems.
I would add one more thing: I think entertainers should get a "credit leak" from the game system as long as they are buffing a person.
For example: person 1 comes into cantina and watches dancer for 3 minutes to get mind buff. During the three minutes, the game delivers 500cr to the entertainer. Once the buff is *maxed* that flow STOPS. THe folow also only comes to entertainers who are being /watched
A credit leak? What would the purpose of this credit leak be? To provide AFK buffers extra money in addition to their regular fees?
lordsegan wrote:
No the purpose would be so that entertainers do not have to rely entirely on tips for credits.
I think this a game subsidy of a class. Government sponsored cantinas so to speak. I dunno if that's such a hot idea, especially since the rest of the people have to interact in a player market.
And the idea doesn't really address the conflict between ATK and AFK entertainers.
Ramona_Garcia wrote:
FrozenDron wrote:
Ramona_Garcia wrote:Well, that's one BIG problem - the way countless players have been conditioned to think they "need" buffs to do anything in game. Me, I remember how it was back in 03. I know what I can do without buffs, and so would anyone lelse if they just tried it out. The way some players play their professions, master them even, without really knowing what they do, without knowing anythiung else than buffing up, getting composite and doing an area attack on a lair is pathetic.
Can you farm Krayts without buffs? Can you hunt Nightsisters without buffs? Can you PvP without buffs (and I don't mean just running from the cloner)?
Didn't think so.
Well, if you think that's all there is to the game, your loss. And I pvp just fine without buffs - in space, where actual skill, not some template and gear combo counts.
When I want twitch reflex based PvP, I go play CS (and I do so often). When I want to play a flight sim, I play Freelancer (well, not so often). There, these two concepts are realised far better than in SWG. SWG is, after all, an MMORPG. Not a flightsim.
However, I have other things spring to mind when I walk into a cantina to clear my battlefatigue other than what is already listed.
"Is this entertainer without an AFK sign over the head really at the keyboard"
"Will he/she respond if I start talking to him/her in spatial"
"What in the world can I converse with an entertainer about if he/she strikes up a conversation"
You get the idea
One of the main barriers from my point of view is that to communicate with a live entertainer, you don't have alot of options regarding topics unless you are really good at roleplaying and immersing yourself into the Star Wars universe. Most combat players are *horrible* roleplayers as they either come from a "l33td3wd" background and don't really care about anything, than what they can "p4wn" or how much "l00t" they have - or maybe just aren't very experienced in the art of "acting", ie. roleplaying. Buffbots and AFK entertainers basically spares people from roleplaying if they do not wish to and leaves the ATK entertainers to entertain people that wish to spend some time conversing with their chosen dancer/musician.
I'm not normally a social sort ingame except when it comes to guildmatters and such, however I do my best to entertain the entertainers so to speak if they express a desire to be entertained - if I walk into a cantina and no-one greets me either verbally or with an emote, I don't give second thought to just finding a chair and clearing out my fatigue, so I can get out and do what I'm good at. (No, not clicking spinattack like a monkey - I hunt animal organics for money with my trusty hand cannon
)With that said, I think people will find more time to spend with live entertainers once the whole CU issue is solved so people don't have to spend maybe 30 minutes just preparing to do battle with the fiercer inhabitants of the Star Wars universe. Hopefully we'll have more time to socialize and meet new people in the cantinas and spend less time watching a boring dance routine, becuase our weapons kill us faster than the enemies do
PS. I think a cantina salary paid to entertainers is a very good idea or maybe a system that will be more effecient at attracting patrons to out of the way cantinas. If I'm not mistaken, it is possible to entertain in the hotels as well, but at present time there is no incentive to entertaining nor going to other cantinas than the closest one. It's always in human nature to do what you need to get done as fast and effecient as possible - thus the crowded cantinas in Bestine, Mos Eisley and other such places, while the smaller and cooler places are virtually untouched.
Hope this adds food for thought
PoetDancer wrote:
lexington23 wrote:
You are forgetting an important fact. The patrons who choose buff bots over live entertainment most often do not want your service. If they did want your service they would come to you wether a buff bot was available or not. If the buff bots are taken away then you will have many new customers who do not want to see you, grumpy and in your face.
"you attract more Kreetles with Carbosyrup than Sarlacc bile."
This is your quote from above. You might want to write that quote into a macro because you are going to need it alot more often if buff bots go away. They won't react like you think either. They won't have a hearty chuckle as they appreciate your wit, they will more likely resent your fortune cookie wisdom and become even grumpier.
Try looking at buffbots in a more positive light. They are a filter, a filter that takes away people who don't want to visit you. The buffbots are in fact providing a valuable service to improve the livedancer's and musician's game experience. There is room for live entertainment and bots on the same servier.
As for the bots, they are not run by the axis of evil. There aren't going to be any entertainer bot conspiricies or mass denials of service. Yes, sometimes you will be banned from a bot, but there will always be another to use so it is not a problem. The bot owner community lacks the desire or unity to shut out people in this way.
And you know what? When the day comes that i'm banned from my favorite bot, and i see you live entertainingin the cantina, you will be my savior and I'll thank you for getting me out of my fix. Buffbots make everyones life better, even entertainers.
Message Edited by lexington23 on 03-16-200507:06 AM
I am going to pay special attention to your post, not because I do not feel your opinion is important. In fact, I feel it is utterly important to the sucess or failure of the entertainment professions. Because we hear this sort of argument a lot. And yet, I would venture to say that I really do not quite understand the rationale behind these sort of arguments.
I would venture to say that patrons who actively prefer a buffbot over what live players do has nothing to do with a lack of desire to be amused. Instead, I would argue that the very nature of the buffing system itself causes antagonism, mistrust, and resentment between two live players.
----
I cut down your reply to save space.
You have really come to the heart of the issue here. Allow me to crystalize what I said by adding this. . .
If the devs take away buffbots, but leave mindbuffing as it is, then I believe that my above comments will be quite true.
The additon of mindbufing drove a wedgebetween the entertainer profession and other professions, actually making it worse than it was before. When I orginally started playing the game at release I enjoyed seeing the entertainers when I healed my BF. This has changed.
The entertainer community needs to push the devs to make the mind buff either automatic or at least much easier. Ifa successfulmindbuff is no longer a concern then when a player arrives at a cantina they need only worry about having a little fun and killing a little time before they get what they want and can be on their merry way.
This is much more like reality as well. The fact is, if you are entertaining IRL in a pub and a patron that you hate comes in, you cannot deny him the relaxation that your service provides. You would have to stop the show and deny everyone. It's not possible to single one person out.
Message Edited by lexington23 on 03-17-200510:09 AM
Message Edited by lexington23 on 03-17-2005 10:10 AM
Message Edited by lexington23 on 03-17-2005 10:12 AM
Zhentarim wrote:
One of the main barriers from my point of view is that to communicate with a live entertainer, you don't have alot of options regarding topics unless you are really good at roleplaying and immersing yourself into the Star Wars universe. Most combat players are *horrible* roleplayers as they either come from a "l33td3wd" background and don't really care about anything, than what they can "p4wn" or how much "l00t" they have - or maybe just aren't very experienced in the art of "acting", ie. roleplaying. Buffbots and AFK entertainers basically spares people from roleplaying if they do not wish to and leaves the ATK entertainers to entertain people that wish to spend some time conversing with their chosen dancer/musician.
In my own play, agood entertainer in an environment condusive to letting down our apprehention can draw even the nastiest powergamer into the game world. One does not need to be a roleplayer to have an immersive experience. One only needs a catalyst, and a reason to roleplay.
I can recall one moment in the Theed Cantina when I had a group of Imperial Player Versus Player characters sit back and heal their BF. They were coming back from space missions. These individuals were not the roleplaying stormtroopers, but were some of the nastiest powergamers on Bria. But because they could sit back and /watch and be assured they'd heal their statistics without any more effort on their parts, they were in the sort of state of mind to engage in an interesting discussion concerning galactic politics, facilitated by me,a trained and paid"expert" in discovering things playing characters would want to talk about. My experience with these professions is thatI amvery, very suprised sometimes how amicable players can be when they are in a state of mind that is condusive to being amused.
And that is why I am deeply, deeply concerned with creating the proper environment condusive to promoting the only things we live entertainers can do thatare better than an unattended alt. Because the only really unique thing I have to "sell," my performance, is being devalued at the expense of nothing other than a contrived, unrealistic mechanic that was designed to give us a higher, supposedly marketable, and increased level of service beyond a mere /watch.
What sense does it make when two characters see the same dance I perform, a dance where I expend the same action, where the patrons see the same visuals, and yet at the end of it, one has a buff and the other does not only because I type a "/" command on one, and not the other? I am of the position that I'd like to buff both. I am of the position that I would like everyone in the cantina to get buffed when they want it and as hassle free as posible. I as a live performer want to buff the 21st person. I want the ability to structure my routine in the way I desire, and the way my patrons want it, for their sake so we can get all this darn tension and apprehention out of the cantina; andI can be in a position to augment my performance in a way that is pleasing to you, the audience.
And I am mad as Dathomir at the fact that I cannot do this only because the developers want to create a means by which a boring entertainer who doesn't want to work hard can sit back, throw out /invites in +125% clothes, and sell you patrons a boring calculation.
For what is a buffbot other than a thing designed to give a boring performance, and a thing to keep a patron "hostage" in a sense while it cycles through its routinized algebraic procedure? One doesn't need to be amusing in the cantinas today, or are in any position to seek amusement in the cantinas today. One need only "master algebra" on the entertaining end, and submit to a boring, algebraic method on the patron end to get what you all need.
Do we really think its fair to allow players the volition to create an NPC that can decide before a patron even enters the door who will get buffed, and who will not? I say a player needs to be in the environment to observe who uses the entity and who doesn't. To tell you the truth, I or any other live performer, I guarantee, would be able to earn a lot of tips if unattended characters couldn't package and sell algebra. Because then all the patrons would /watch the unattendee, but be in a position to watch me, and not the routinized spam to know when the procedure is done.
I can more than compete with a boring LAMer on the basis of who is more than amusing. What I cannot do is make this about selling algebra in the form of /invites and /setperforms. Because unattendees can dish out 14,982 algebraic calculations in a 24 hour span, and I am being judged on my ability to duplicate that when my very liveness gets in the way of making the patrons comfortable with my calculations.
If buffbots cangive out14,982 buffs in a day, why can't I or any other entertainer have the ability to give out 14,982 buffs in a day's active play?
Message Edited by PoetDancer on 03-17-2005 03:10 PM