Business And Economy Archive
Thread: So you want to save the economy?
If you want a decent player ran economy in a MMORPG, I have two easy steps...
1. Create a cool MMORPG
2. From launch, Money-In = Money-Out
Tada!
As I say that, I do not believe in socailist economies where everyone is equal. If a crafter earns the money, its his. Noprice caps, no halfing richguys banks, no hand outs.
All I was saying isthat manypeople have been taken for a ride bysome crafters.
Just don't complain or wonder why you lost in pvp without using any buffs or enhancements to a guy with spices, food, doc buffs, nice weapon and exceptional armor
BlackJango wrote:
While I oppose a set price cap, I do know that many crafters have brainwasher the people by pointing to 'uber' people and say, "If you don't have this elite weapon, you can never beat them" to sell off items at 10 times their worth. They have convinced us that even though its only 15 points better, its worth millions more because everyone thinks they need the best.
The crafters have won so far, I say peaple need to stop listening to what they are told and listen to themselves.
Eerif wrote:
Just don't complain or wonder why you lost in pvp without using any buffs or enhancements to a guy with spices, food, doc buffs, nice weapon and exceptional armor
BlackJango wrote:
While I oppose a set price cap, I do know that many crafters have brainwasher the people by pointing to 'uber' people and say, "If you don't have this elite weapon, you can never beat them" to sell off items at 10 times their worth. They have convinced us that even though its only 15 points better, its worth millions more because everyone thinks they need the best.
The crafters have won so far, I say peaple need to stop listening to what they are told and listen to themselves.
wrong.
I have spice, nice armor, nice weapons etc. But the thing is, you dont NEED the best! You can lose once and awhile, besides, to the average guy that expensive weapon is his only one, there will ALWAYS be a better one.
Good point, I'm just going to keep "braaaiiinwashing" people into buying foods and drinks then!
Cuit wrote:
Its clear to me that you have never been a crafter. if you knew even half the time that goes into things, you would see they are not overpriced. The time investment in order to become a good crafter is 1000x that of a mindless combat player. When i craft adv blaster powerhandlers im using an 8 month old spawn of ostrine carbonate ore, that itself is worth quite a bit. If crafters were told what to price due to an NPC vendor guess what?
Half the players in this game would get insta killed in pvp and never be able to compete in Pve because i know that the majority of great crafters would just go over to just making for guild and friends. NPC vendors are a bad idea, on my server you can get the cheap stuff, i myself sell the lower level weapons for 4000 credits unsliced, sliced are more expensive, then enhanced are even more expensive, but what the majority of players fail to relize is that they are not entitled to the best. They have a choice, dont like the way i price my stuff, go somewhere else. You are not entitled to a high end suit of armor, a krayt gun and bio enhanced foods, im sure you can find a chef to make you non be foods cheap, an armorsmith grinding to sell you a cheap suit of armor and a grinding ws to make you a low end weapon. But dont go to the best crafters on your server and expect to get stuff cheap. I can go buy a rolex in a jewlery store for $2000 or i can buy a knock off for $20 its a choice.
Actually i was a master artisan for over 4 months making speeders and the like . . . I was also a 4/2/4/2 Merchant so I know how the merchant proff was set up as well. And you just made my point . . .in regard to the ore that is worth quite a bit. Back in the day, you could actually buy resources which were OK . .not great but OK for about 3 cpu and that was at a high demand.
I'v never had the "best" armor . . or the "best" gun when I was a smuggler (during my artisan days). You can't buy things from a "grinding" crafter . . . . they get more XP in practice mode (though a crafter should really know that) so you can't buy a low end suit of armor or weapon, so really, you don't have no choice.
Thats why you dont get it, m.artisan is not really a crafter, i buy the best because i make the best, i know there are places that sell the same items cheaper, but not close to the quality, use galaxy wide, im sure you can find what you look for there. I found cheap stuff whenever i needed it, i got 10 suits of 80% kin comp for about 1 million, a crate of vk's for my tkm for 400k. You can find it, just takes more time. You can still get ok resources for 1 - 2 cpu on my server, but for me using hte best in my product means i make a better product than the next guy and can charge more for my product
Whats overpriced to you might not be overpriced for someone else either, im sure most people would think 50 cpu for copper is to much, but ive paid that and was very ok with it, because i wanted that copper.
and its things like this make the economies go bad.
This makes an echonomy realistic, people pay what things are worth to them, like in RL, i dont see how the Mercedes brand is worth an about 40% price increase from a volkswagen but thats me. Some people want the best and are prepared to pay for it, i myself stock starter weapons fairly cheap. If donald trump wants a piece of land somewhere, dont you think he'l pay more than what its worth if he knows it will make him a profit? If you really were more than just a artisan you would know that just my harvesters and houses are around 100k pr day in maint and power, need to make that back somewhere.
Basically what npc vendors would do is put a price on a crafters effort, to draw a parralell thats like having an NPC vendor selling say all types of AA's and CA's, all other types of loot at a base price. It takes away from the player echonomy, in order fot the echonomy to actually be safe is to let it work like it does in RL, like it does now, some items are very expensive others are not. I can go out with my lvl1 noob artisan and make 40000 credits in 2 hours, i can afford a decent gun and a bike with that. In 10 hours i can make close to what i need to get basic armor. 30k i can get a house. thats not overpriced in my oppinion. What you are seeing is a player echonomy at work, but what you are also seeing are players not prepared to put in the effort to pay for what they want. I want to be the best at what i craft, so i get the best resources, put millions into tapes, in order to get better.
Cuit wrote:
Here's a truism for you: People complain about "greedy" crafters, but the truth is those complainers would gladly pay the same amount of money for the exact same item if it came from an NPC vendor. If they didn't have enough money to buy the item, they wouldn't complain about "greedy" NPC vendors--they'd dutifully and slavishly go out and grind the money they needed for the item. "Greed" only becomes a factor whenplayer craftersare involved, as if crafters were expected to give their wares away.
true but . . if players and NPCs sold things for the close to the same amount . . . you couldn't call it greed. I'm not calling crafters greedy per say because I know its not entirely their fault . . . . its everyones IMO. Those that sell resouces for inflated prices hurt the crafters who then sell at a higher price signaling the resource sellers to sell higher . . . its a never ending cycle and the consumer is the one who is hurt.
Cuit wrote:
Its clear to me that you have never been a crafter. if you knew even half the time that goes into things, you would see they are not overpriced. The time investment in order to become a good crafter is 1000x that of a mindless combat player. When i craft adv blaster powerhandlers im using an 8 month old spawn of ostrine carbonate ore, that itself is worth quite a bit. If crafters were told what to price due to an NPC vendor guess what?
Half the players in this game would get insta killed in pvp and never be able to compete in Pve because i know that the majority of great crafters would just go over to just making for guild and friends. NPC vendors are a bad idea, on my server you can get the cheap stuff, i myself sell the lower level weapons for 4000 credits unsliced, sliced are more expensive, then enhanced are even more expensive, but what the majority of players fail to relize is that they are not entitled to the best. They have a choice, dont like the way i price my stuff, go somewhere else. You are not entitled to a high end suit of armor, a krayt gun and bio enhanced foods, im sure you can find a chef to make you non be foods cheap, an armorsmith grinding to sell you a cheap suit of armor and a grinding ws to make you a low end weapon. But dont go to the best crafters on your server and expect to get stuff cheap. I can go buy a rolex in a jewlery store for $2000 or i can buy a knock off for $20 its a choice.
Actually i was a master artisan for over 4 months making speeders and the like . . . I was also a 4/2/4/2 Merchant so I know how the merchant proff was set up as well. And you just made my point . . .in regard to the ore that is worth quite a bit. Back in the day, you could actually buy resources which were OK . .not great but OK for about 3 cpu and that was at a high demand.
I'v never had the "best" armor . . or the "best" gun when I was a smuggler (during my artisan days). You can't buy things from a "grinding" crafter . . . . they get more XP in practice mode (though a crafter should really know that) so you can't buy a low end suit of armor or weapon, so really, you don't have no choice.
Whats overpriced to you might not be overpriced for someone else either, im sure most people would think 50 cpu for copper is to much, but ive paid that and was very ok with it, because i wanted that copper.
and its things like this make the economies go bad.
Comparing Master Artisan to Master Weaponsmith is exactly like comparing Master Brawler to Master Swordsman. You are not a true combatant until you get into the elite professions, and you are not a true crafter until you get into the elite crafting professions. None of the Master Artisan schematics compare to the top of the line requirements needed for advanced crafting professions.
You don't truly need to worry about rare resources (Alantium Carbonate Ore, for example).
You don't spend the same amount of SP on the profession, which allows you to spend skills on combat and that in turns mean you can go out into the fields to survey without dying.
I think it is time you learned why things are priced the way they are.
I spent a week crafting and running multiple factories to produce a full run of Stim-D's. I put the crates on my vendor (a crate of 50 Stim-D's were set at 150k). By the end of the day, they were sold out. So my next run will be placed at 200k per crate. Not because I am greedy, but because I need to keep my vendor stocked. And people are obviously willing to pay for a quality product. It is called supply and demand.
Your theory on NPC vendors won't work for the same reason. First off, if there is no constant demand for weaponsmiths (because the NPC vendors can supply the entire galaxy for equipment) then there won't be a reason to have a weaponsmith. You said that crafters can be used to make schematics. Well, if I am the only weaponsmith that can make that schematic, you can bet I'll be in demand. And you can bet you will be paying a high price to have me make it.
Don't even throw us the bone for the looted schematics. If these NPC vendors come about, you might as well just take the crafting profession out of the game. Turn SWG into EQ and call it a night.
Jedi Paddy unlocked 11/13/05, 11:00 pm est 
Bis Cuit, SWG has never once, since it went live, sold anything via AI on the bazaar.Everything that was ever bought or sold on the bazaar was done so by a player. Everything. The AI does not generate random stuff that it throws on the bazaar for people to buy. Everything on the bazaar is either looted or made by a player.
As I stated before, what you call a "baseline" for pricing would rapidly become apriceceiling, discouraging player crafters from producing anything at all. Maybe you don't care about that, but there are a good number of players who are in this game precisely because of the economic and crafting systems it uses.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Cuit wrote:
Basically what npc vendors would do is put a price on a crafters effort, to draw a parralell thats like having an NPC vendor selling say all types of AA's and CA's, all other types of loot at a base price. It takes away from the player echonomy, in order fot the echonomy to actually be safe is to let it work like it does in RL, like it does now, some items are very expensive others are not. I can go out with my lvl1 noob artisan and make 40000 credits in 2 hours, i can afford a decent gun and a bike with that. In 10 hours i can make close to what i need to get basic armor. 30k i can get a house. thats not overpriced in my oppinion. What you are seeing is a player echonomy at work, but what you are also seeing are players not prepared to put in the effort to pay for what they want. I want to be the best at what i craft, so i get the best resources, put millions into tapes, in order to get better.
the game economy doesn't work anything like it does in RL. In RL there is a finite amount of finances and we use the barter system . . .(though we use representations for a valuable metal in the form of paper money). . . .in SWG there is an infinate amount of credits.
I find it odd though that your example is an artisan purchasing things that the can for the most part craft themself. what is a lvl 1 artisan? 0/0/0/0 . . . or 3/1/4/2 . . or 1/1/1/1 . . . a master artisan is level 1 as well at which point they can make basic armor, and a speeder, a decent (through experimentation) gun and personal harvestors and anything else he might need.
and you talk about time . . . technically crafters only have to craft 1 thing . . . a schematic they are happy with and then use a factory to mass produce the item . . . so time is totally irrelevant in regard to crafting sold goods. It takes more time to find and harvest the resources (wait just find them because they use harvestors) than it does to craft the item.
The game AI already sells craftable items and resources on the bazaar . .at least it did. but due to the limited quantity, these things get purchased and sold at inflated prices .. . and I've known those that have done this. So whats so different from havingan infinate quantity (so they can't be sold out and allow for price gouging) of more items?
I'm not asking for NPC vendors to sell loot . . . I'm not asking for NPC vendors to sell the items that require looted schematics . . . I'm not even asking for NPC vendors . . . .I'm not asking for a price cap . . . I'm looking for a price base . . . that can used by new and veteran players alike. A reference that will help define the economy.
The BS i outline proves you have no clue to elite crafting, lets have a look shall we a T21 rifle Elite weapon
5 advanced blaster powerhandlers
- 5 Ostrine carbonate ore
- 8 Phrik aluminium
- 5 Diatium copper
- 10 Polymer
- 16 Irolunn reactive gas
Total resources : 25 ostrine + 8 phrik + 5 diatium + 10 polymer +18 irolunn = 66 x 5 = 330 units
Factory time 226 seconds pr handler : 1130 seconds or about 25 minutes
1 advanced rifle barrel
- 40 Rhodium steel
- 19 duralloy steel
- 17 duranium steel
- 9 Ryll gemstone
- 8 Metal (generic)
total resource : 40 + 19 + 17 + 9 + 8 = 76 units
Now after surveying placing harvesters, paying harvester maint, harvester power and wating for these things to come in spawn in quality. I need to factory run blaster power handlers, now i craft around 10 schematics untill i find one that im happy with, and wait about 30 minutes to make the 5 i need for 1 t21.
Open the T21 schematic
- 150 Ditanium steel
- 85 Polonium iron
- 20 Generic metal
-15 gallorian Crystal gemstone (very rare spawn)
- 30 atlantian carbonate ore (rare spawn)
Total resource : 150 + 85 + 20 + 15 + 30 = 300 units
Total resources 330 + 76 + 300 = 706 units
Ok now lets assume that you get all the resources in quality for 10 cpu on av, the rifle comes out costing you 7006 credits to make, now count in factory maint, house maint, and the roughly 30 minutes it took you to craft this 1 rifle, i dont think selling it for 20k is overpriced. Now if this was me doing a factory run of them, i would most likely make around 10 schems of this rifle as well and use the best of them. That means i have to take resources for a total of 10 rifles, 50 adv power handlers and 10 adv blaster barrels into the final pricing. I also need to think about the time it took me to make the schem, the factory time and how much that cost me in maint and power, then vendor maint, harvester time, maint and power. Then come up with the final price, if an item sells to fast, i tend to price it up to slow down the sales in order to be able to keep up with production.
Now in the real world, there is not a set amount of money, the mint makes more if its needed, the goverment takes a cut out of what you make in order to run things like transportation (shuttle and starport fees), property tax (house maint) Gas "tax" (bike maintenence) charges companies for use of property (harvester maint) , fine people for breaking the law (stormtrooper fines) , Tax on new cars (chassis dealer). Like in real life there are ways currency is made work (missions, selling space loot, selling stuff to junk dealers, ) and there are ways currency is drained taxes (swg mentioned above)
Now look at the stock market : if cocoa bean stock is selling for $2 on tuesday, wedensday the biggest cocoa manufacturer in the world is say "incapped", cocoa bean stock price increases because there is less cocoa beans on the market, and hence the cocoa beans that are still available are worth more. Like say flurry i belive had a strech of like 5 months where no ostrine spawned, in the end the ostrine was selling for alot more since tehre was a very low supply of it. with your system a given resource would always be available, so it violates a basic fundamental in a free market echonomy, supply and demand.
In swg crafting items need a certain quality or stats on a resource, the T21 in my example needs OQ+CD, so i need to find the materials i need : Phrik alu, diat copper, metal , polonium iron, with high OQ + CD to make a good product, now these are not in constant spawn, phrik can spawn week one and polonium week 15 it varies so i need to constantly survey to know whats in spawn right now and what i need. Then i need a high consentration to get enough of the material. In short surveying alone can take me 4 - 6 hours pr week, sometimes alot more.
A baseline price will never work since say bria might have 500 say armorsmiths and the base price for say composite is listed as say 100k pr suit, now on bria the 500 armorsmiths can keep this price since there are so many of them. But on scylla there might be 100 armorsmiths who cant keep this price since there are fewer of them. The "base" price would have to be adjusted by so many factors by each server that it would require a team of its own.
In theory, this would get credits out of the economy, thus decreasing inflation. The effect is player vendors selling for cheaper, right?