Business And Economy Archive
Thread: So you want to save the economy?
Message Edited by Cuit on 05-18-2005 08:33 AM
This would be the final killing blow to crafters. Items are only inflated if that's what the market will bear. If something costs too much for you to buy and think it's overpriced, don't buy it. People will lower their price if no one is buying something. Either that or it really IS that expensive to make, and they just will stop making them.
Crafters have been hit pretty hard lately. This would be final straw.
1. Try just harvesting them yourself. The only price you pay is the maintenance on the harvesters. And as for the "dangers" of harvesting, I have been moving my harvesters around with my crafter for 2 weeks and haven't died yet.
2. Shop around...I have seen materials go for 10cpu and 2cpu...and they were the same material.
I hope that your server has at least some kind merchants out there. Afterall, my philosophy is "Its better to earn the long dollar, than the short buck." Better to sell cheaper and get more customers for longer, than to sell high/make a quick profit/be broke down the road.
Personally I don't think SWG needs NPC vendors. The player-based economy is one of the few things that makes SWG unique, and it's why many people play the game.
Here's a truism for you: People complain about "greedy" crafters, but the truth is those complainers would gladly pay the same amount of money for the exact same item if it came from an NPC vendor. If they didn't have enough money to buy the item, they wouldn't complain about "greedy" NPC vendors--they'd dutifully and slavishly go out and grind the money they needed for the item. "Greed" only becomes a factor whenplayer craftersare involved, as if crafters were expected to give their wares away.
However, I think in the end you will have your way. My feeling is that SWG is slowly headed in the direction of a boring, static NPC vendor based economy, where crafting will be just another sideline hobby as it is in every other MMORPG out there. It's beengradually heading in that direction since launch. It's myimpression that the current crop of Devs don't appreciate the unique nature of SWG's economy, and probably resent the presence of player crafters who are able to make so many "unbalancing" items.
Certainly, if they ever makeSWG2, it will not be a crafting-based economy. And that, imo, would bea shame.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis
Here's a truism for you: People complain about "greedy" crafters, but the truth is those complainers would gladly pay the same amount of money for the exact same item if it came from an NPC vendor. If they didn't have enough money to buy the item, they wouldn't complain about "greedy" NPC vendors--they'd dutifully and slavishly go out and grind the money they needed for the item. "Greed" only becomes a factor whenplayer craftersare involved, as if crafters were expected to give their wares away.
true but . . if players and NPCs sold things for the close to the same amount . . . you couldn't call it greed. I'm not calling crafters greedy per say because I know its not entirely their fault . . . . its everyones IMO. Those that sell resouces for inflated prices hurt the crafters who then sell at a higher price signaling the resource sellers to sell higher . . . its a never ending cycle and the consumer is the one who is hurt.
Cuit wrote:
I may have misunderstood your post, but it would seem that if a person is being "overcharged" for items, then they are not shopping around properly (and that includes resources). Most all the vendors (at least on Radiant), have updated their vendors to be able to be searched on the global bazaar. With that being the case, a person can shop for the best, cheapest, etc item that they want and go pick it up from the vendor.
The global search is great . . . an does allow for this but what it doesn't do is give give the player/crafters an idea of the items actually worth. Way back when the bazaar max was $3000 you would find the rare VK or fleshwrap. When the max went up to $6000 . . . thesame item was sold for that new max. The new max is $20,000 (i think though i could be wrong) and the cost went up to that . . . . they were worth 3K once . . .why are they worth 20K now. its the same item? Having a base priced AI vendor for items wouldn't hurt crafter sales at all . . .player made items would always be better and thus they would charge slightly higher than the base cost unless it was vastly superior at which point the price would be even higher.
its sickening to go to a bazaar and see a pair of casual pants being sold for 10K and yes I have seen this . . . am I going to buy it? no, I know better . . .I've been here a while but what about the new player? create a new character on a different server and notice how much more money they start out with? As others pointed out, us from way back started with 250 creds and a melon . . . we (the players) made it so that the devs had to increase this. We ruined our economies . . . we can blame the hologrinders . . . we can blame the system but our greed did it . . . I'm as much to blame as anyone else . . . why because at some point Isupported the crafters selling their 2mil suit of comp armor by purchasing it.
The thing YOU must understand is that YOUR server and it's prices are NOT reflective of every server. On Radiant, as another Radiant player has posted here is NOT that way. I see you complaining about 2 Million for a suit of armor - on Radiant *I* paid ONE TIME 750K for a suit of FULLY SLICED 90% Composite. That's a far cry from your 2 million. Almost fully across the board, items on Radiant are significantly cheaper than on many other servers. If your NPC idea were to occur here, Radiant's Crafting community would leave the game en masse, leaving ONLY NPC vendors.
I also see you blaming players for the problem. Nothing can be further from the truth. Did the players CREATE the Holo Jedi system? No, that was SOE. Did Crafters respond by increasing prices? No - What REALLY happened was that items started FLYING off of vendors, and in order to make sure they were able to keep items stocked, prices increased. In the marketplace, this is called a Price Adjustment. It happens all the time. If the Shop Keepers and Manufacturers see that a particular item sells at an alarming rate, the price increases in order to find the point where the item still sells, but is staying on the shelves a bit longer. Equalization occurs.
However - When the Solo Groups dried up, instead of the sales slowing as we would have expected - They kept up. Blame the crafters because people kept buying? Hardly. Blame the players who instead of seeing they didn't have the same earnings potential, kept spending as if they had a never ending million credits per buff. Only NOW, after things have started settling down and accounts are drying up from massive over spending are people starting to slow up. And their response? Blame Crafters for selling items the way they have always been.
Once players start REALLY learning how to use the bazaar search to shop the galaxy over, you'll see prices fall as people will only buy reaonably priced items.. But if we aren't patient, and allow this process to happen, and create an NPC alternative.. The game's final bastion of originality will be utterly gone, and then all the nay sayers will be right - SWG may as well BEa dead game.
I also see you blaming players for the problem. Nothing can be further from the truth. Did the players CREATE the Holo Jedi system? No, that was SOE. Did Crafters respond by increasing prices? No - What REALLY happened was that items started FLYING off of vendors, and in order to make sure they were able to keep items stocked, prices increased. In the marketplace, this is called a Price Adjustment. It happens all the time. If the Shop Keepers and Manufacturers see that a particular item sells at an alarming rate, the price increases in order to find the point where the item still sells, but is staying on the shelves a bit longer. Equalization occurs.
Actually the holo jedi system was in response to the player demand for Jedi as a playable proffession. So the players are actually to blame . . . from a certain point of view
in regard to price adjustment . . . did it take more resources to make the item? Did the maintanence cost of the harvestor or factorygo up? the price went up becausemerchants found they could sell things for a higher price. 
However - When the Solo Groups dried up, instead of the sales slowing as we would have expected - They kept up. Blame the crafters because people kept buying? Hardly. Blame the players who instead of seeing they didn't have the same earnings potential, kept spending as if they had a never ending million credits per buff. Only NOW, after things have started settling down and accounts are drying up from massive over spending are people starting to slow up. And their response? Blame Crafters for selling items the way they have always been.
in regard to price adjustment . . . did it take more resources to make the item? Did the maintanence cost of the harvestor or factorygo up? the price went up becausemerchants found they could sell things for a higher price.
Of course. If I were selling on Ebay and the item that I sold was for $10.00, then the next time I would put it up for $15.00. Crafters make money by selling things. If they can sell something higher than normal, because people will buy it, then so be it. When people stop buying and the crafter gets 100 emails stating that his/her auction has come to an end, and that crafter has to relist those items, the price of those items will come down.
equalization as you put will never happen until there are base pricing for items . . . maybe NPC vendors aren't the way to go . . . maybe the the merchants of each server need to create a price chart and then hopefully follow it. Bottome line is . . . equalization will get higher and higher and with it the server economies will get worse and worse.
I will admit that having a base price for items would make things easier as a Merchant/Crafter (an MSRP if you will). However, that would be a bad idea from a money making stand point. For example: Let's say I am a retailer of fine mahogany dog statuettes. I buy my stuff from a manufacturer. Then, being the entrepenuer that I am (after all I am trying to make money SELLING things), I put my "fair market value" on the item. If there was a list of base prices, then every Tom, Jane, and Harry will know what my markup is. Yes, as a buyer this would be WONDERFUL! But, then who would be a merchant? Without merchants, everyone would need to know a crafter personally to build custom items (no where to store mass quantities and sell them). Then, because it is a custom order, the price will be raised. So, on to another Crafter. After a while, the players would like to be able to shop at a "mall" of crafters. Why not introduce the new class Merchant? Wait................
Its clear to me that you have never been a crafter. if you knew even half the time that goes into things, you would see they are not overpriced. The time investment in order to become a good crafter is 1000x that of a mindless combat player. When i craft adv blaster powerhandlers im using an 8 month old spawn of ostrine carbonate ore, that itself is worth quite a bit. If crafters were told what to price due to an NPC vendor guess what?
Half the players in this game would get insta killed in pvp and never be able to compete in Pve because i know that the majority of great crafters would just go over to just making for guild and friends. NPC vendors are a bad idea, on my server you can get the cheap stuff, i myself sell the lower level weapons for 4000 credits unsliced, sliced are more expensive, then enhanced are even more expensive, but what the majority of players fail to relize is that they are not entitled to the best. They have a choice, dont like the way i price my stuff, go somewhere else. You are not entitled to a high end suit of armor, a krayt gun and bio enhanced foods, im sure you can find a chef to make you non be foods cheap, an armorsmith grinding to sell you a cheap suit of armor and a grinding ws to make you a low end weapon. But dont go to the best crafters on your server and expect to get stuff cheap. I can go buy a rolex in a jewlery store for $2000 or i can buy a knock off for $20 its a choice.
You can buy the non best and still grind with it, but if you want the best pay for it . You can get the reg High cap scatter of my vendor, or the krayt one with a pre cu barrel and scope but not at the same price.
Whats overpriced to you might not be overpriced for someone else either, im sure most people would think 50 cpu for copper is to much, but ive paid that and was very ok with it, because i wanted that copper.
Message Edited by P__Day on 05-18-2005 04:32 PM
Message Edited by P__Day on 05-18-2005 04:33 PM
Its clear to me that you have never been a crafter. if you knew even half the time that goes into things, you would see they are not overpriced. The time investment in order to become a good crafter is 1000x that of a mindless combat player. When i craft adv blaster powerhandlers im using an 8 month old spawn of ostrine carbonate ore, that itself is worth quite a bit. If crafters were told what to price due to an NPC vendor guess what?
Half the players in this game would get insta killed in pvp and never be able to compete in Pve because i know that the majority of great crafters would just go over to just making for guild and friends. NPC vendors are a bad idea, on my server you can get the cheap stuff, i myself sell the lower level weapons for 4000 credits unsliced, sliced are more expensive, then enhanced are even more expensive, but what the majority of players fail to relize is that they are not entitled to the best. They have a choice, dont like the way i price my stuff, go somewhere else. You are not entitled to a high end suit of armor, a krayt gun and bio enhanced foods, im sure you can find a chef to make you non be foods cheap, an armorsmith grinding to sell you a cheap suit of armor and a grinding ws to make you a low end weapon. But dont go to the best crafters on your server and expect to get stuff cheap. I can go buy a rolex in a jewlery store for $2000 or i can buy a knock off for $20 its a choice.
Actually i was a master artisan for over 4 months making speeders and the like . . . I was also a 4/2/4/2 Merchant so I know how the merchant proff was set up as well. And you just made my point . . .in regard to the ore that is worth quite a bit. Back in the day, you could actually buy resources which were OK . .not great but OK for about 3 cpu and that was at a high demand.
I'v never had the "best" armor . . or the "best" gun when I was a smuggler (during my artisan days). You can't buy things from a "grinding" crafter . . . . they get more XP in practice mode (though a crafter should really know that) so you can't buy a low end suit of armor or weapon, so really, you don't have no choice.
Whats overpriced to you might not be overpriced for someone else either, im sure most people would think 50 cpu for copper is to much, but ive paid that and was very ok with it, because i wanted that copper.
and its things like this make the economies go bad.