Business And Economy Archive

Thread: So you want to save the economy?

ASHRID
Thu May 19, 2005 4:27 am
#27





EdOWar wrote:

Bis Cuit, SWG has never once, since it went live, sold anything via AI on the bazaar.Everything that was ever bought or sold on the bazaar was done so by a player. Everything. The AI does not generate random stuff that it throws on the bazaar for people to buy. Everything on the bazaar is either looted or made by a player.







While this is true there is an exception. Way back at launch Bounty Hunters could buy their droids from a terminal rather than a droid engineer.


The result?


No droid engineer bothered to make BH droids because they could not sell for the same price (let alone lower!) than the terminal sold for (even if you harvested your own power and resources). Eventually the DE's cries were heard and the crafted BH droids became stacks of 5 & 10 respectively and the terminals were deactivated/removed. Sure the Bounty Hunters complained (because their mission payouts then didnt give much profit after covering droid costs) and the mission payouts were then increased.


The _only_ way that NPC vendor would work in SWG is if they sold the worse quality items possible at a baseline price. Then player crafters would always be equal or better (and therefore be able to command more money for their products), a system like this exists in a game called Neocron (and the only people who buy from NPC vendors are newbies, cheapskates and crafters who need the item to create a blueprint of in order to make a better one)


The problem with this of course is that quality needs to be a factor in _every_ item made by a player crafter - currently this is far from the case (ask any tailor or droid engineer if quality effects their finished product)

Message Edited by ASHRID on 05-19-2005 03:32 PM

FeydmanKassan
Thu May 19, 2005 5:52 am
#28

the game economy doesn't work anything like it does in RL. In RL there is a finite amount of finances and we use the barter system . . .(though we use representations for a valuable metal in the form of paper money). . . .in SWG there is an infinate amount of credits.


This is incorrect.The SWG economy is a very simplified version of a RL free market economy. Credits are not unlimited, rather they are regulated by design. This is hidden from the player by the use of so-called "money sinks", such asshuttle tickets, maintenence fees, ship repair fees, etc. The flow of credits is monitored and subltey adjusted as needed using various mechanisms, which are also hidden from the player. These include the quantity and quality of resources and there accessibility. Ever wonder why some spawns seem to shift a little faster from time to time? Or why a certain necessary resource doesn't reappear for a long time? These things are not quite as random as they may appear. Also, when a player leaves the game, where does his/her cash go? One way or another, unless it is given to another player, it gets slowly drained out of the game. The point is, the system is designed to maintain a balanced economy, within a range. As long as this balance is maintained overall, it's all good, as far as the game mechanics are concerned. Your game life may suck financially, mine may suck even worse, but OVERALL there is a balance. Which means that there are some people who can afford anything they want and some who live on the street. Which is ok in a game cause your toon doesn't really need a place to live, does it?


and you talk about time . . . technically crafters only have to craft 1 thing . . . a schematic they are happy with and then use a factory to mass produce the item . . . so time is totally irrelevant in regard to crafting sold goods. It takes more time to find and harvest the resources (wait just find them because they use harvestors) than it does to craft the item.


This is not necessarily true. In addtion to harvesting and creating schematic, both time consuming and costly pursuits btw, there is the time and cost involved in settign up the factories then stocking and selling the goods produced. For a serious artisan or merchant, this takes a considerable amount of time. Longer thant it take to kill a krayt, that's for sure. But that is how we like to spend our time. But since that leaves us much less time to earn credits through quests or combat (even if we had the points for a decent combat proffession), we need to be compensated in other ways.


The game AI already sells craftable items and resources on the bazaar . .at least it did. but due to the limited quantity, these things get purchased and sold at inflated prices .. . and I've known those that have done this. So whats so different from havingan infinate quantity (so they can't be sold out and allow for price gouging) of more items?


I'm not asking for NPC vendors to sell loot . . . I'm not asking for NPC vendors to sell the items that require looted schematics . . . I'm not even asking for NPC vendors . . . .I'm not asking for a price cap . . . I'm looking for a price base . . . that can used by new and veteran players alike. A reference that will help define the economy.


NPC vendors would just be a heavy-handed"money sink" whose only benefit would be to drive crafters out of the game. At that point, prices would simply go higher as the now rare player crafted items will be sold at a premium because they would become defacto "uber". You would actually get the reverse of what you seem to want. Besides, it is totally unnecessary. The mechanism I just mentioned will do the job and stabilize the economy, albeit slowly.


As for 'greedy crafters', if I were you I would just grind the profession that makes the thing I want to buy, make it myself, grind the next profession, and so on until I had everything I wanted.


Of course since I'm me, I'll just go find someone selling what I need at a price I can afford and call it a day.




PISCARI ENGINEERING/Serenity Shipyards
17pt Weapons Systems/17pt Engine Systems/12pt Chassis
Serenity, Naboo 2972 -5492 Lowca
Tanzar - Freelance Ace/Itondrou - Imperial Ace, Starsider
Omega 4
Omega Squadron
"A hypocrite despises those whom he deceives, but has no respect for himself. He would make a dupe of himself too, if he could. - William Hazlitt"


XStarbracer
Thu May 19, 2005 11:44 am
#29
Crafters need to get the boot out of SWG like they do in every other popular MMO these days,Loot and npc venders is the only way a MMO can work. All the Greedy Arse Crafters PROVE players arent mature enough to run an economy. 3mil for faction armor? Riiigh, get real.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- I support NO DECAY.It should be run like EQ . No 20k price cap on the bazar and everyone can craft. Its has worked for 7 years on everquest and there is no decay plenty of money and no crazy prices.

Decay is only good for crafteres and bad for everyone else. <>

Kinshi
Thu May 19, 2005 1:10 pm
#30
One should take the Alan Greenspan approach to the economy..and that is do not make assumptions about it and make only the most minimal changes possible because just the ACT or APPEARANCE of changing the economy will change the economy.


You cannot make sweeping changes without upending everyone and there is no real reason to do so.


The orginal poster made some assumptions/points id like to address:



  • players selling overpricing items

I dont see this as a problem in a free market economy. The market sets the worth of an item. If people are willing to pay that proce, then it is a perfectly valid price. This capitalism, not communism, thus no 'government/SOE price fixing should come into play)



  • players selling overpriced resources

See above..demand dictate value



  • players needing better equipment to grind (be it jedi or anything else)

This is purely subjective as NEED by definition is purely subjective. There is very little NEEDED to have a postive XP & cash flow in SWG/ ALL that is NEEDED is you to sit at the keyboard and play. The real issue is the rate at which you gain XP and cash. Then you may NEED better things to gain XP faster but its just to gain it faster.



  • platers needing more resources to grind with

Im not sure what the issue being brought up here is. You want to advance, you need to make things, those things require resources. Large things take large amounts of resources, and thus give a larger XP reward. That is a balanced system.



  • players wanting ONLY the best there was

This is true in R/L. I WANT a Mercedes 500 series sedan but that doesnt mean I am going to get one any time soon. You can want all you want, and if you have earned the money, then go for it. Otherwise this is a case of a champange appetite on a beer budget. If you want the best, then you are going to face harder mobs, and will likely face death and item decay more frequently to obtain those items. This is also a balanced system


What used to be VERY imbalaced was how easy it was for nearly anyone of any skill level could attain the highest power items in the game. Hopefully the CU will limit such broad access to the best there is. Frankly 'Best' is a meaningless concept when everyone has the same thing.



  • crafters becoming elitist with the items they made . . . only the best

Give the crafters some credit..its a PITA to get to Master lvl and in the past they had to be Master because players refused to buy anything NOT made by a Master. It had to be 12 pt or bust. Not the crafters fault. They would be VERY happy to be able to sell their lesser wares if there was a market for them. (that would also encourage Novice crafters to spend time in the lower levels of the game because they could make money selling the lower level wares rather than grinding as fast as possible to the top.)



  • crafters quiting diminishing any competion

It hurts when crafters quit but crafters get replaced. The harsh reality of business is that 90% of smal businesses go out of business within their first year of operation, mainly due to lack of adequate funding. Its not easy to build a business, people do not simply come because you are there. A crafter DOES need to be a merchant (or partner with one) if they expect to sell their wares at a profit.


In SWG, there is no shortage of crafters, yes I may have to go to different planets to find things but the fact is I always find what I am looking for. There are little merchants tucked away in all kinds of hidey holes across the SWG galaxies, some serving the whole galaxy, some serving just their own region or just.


Frankly you need to have a a 'business' plan if you expect to turn a profit. You need to know how much you make and how much you spend, and target a specifi audience. If you are small, it is unreasonable to try to compete on the same scale of a super merchant with 50 vendors and 100's of harvesters and factories when you start. You have to work to get there, doesnt happen overnight and most of you WILL fail (just like in r/l)


The big crafters/merchats arent some evil empire like Wal-Mart out to kill the little guy. They had to start small lke everyone else but they rose to the top because they showed some business saavy.


Bottom Line


If you want to compete , you need to learn to be business saavy as well. In a capitalistic system, its all up to you being able to learn and adapt to the world around you. If you expect the world to adapt to you, you will find yourself flat broke in short order.




HNelson
Thu May 19, 2005 2:26 pm
#31


You can certainly go to NPC vendors and a socialist system (e.g. most MMORPS). SWG has a unique system with far more capitalism, but it does mean just that... supply and demand. Moving away from this model would effectvely destroy the crafting professions (and maybe that is the idea).


Keep in mind, crafters are out to make money, just as adventuring classes are out for loot and money. The bottom line is that crafters simply can't charge and sell for more than people can pay.


BTW, high prices do not "Hurt" an economy in and of themselves. "low" prices can. That is the reason the goverment is going after Microsoft for giving software away (IE, etc). High prices encourage competition, low prices stifle competition. A healthy capatlistic economy is all about competition.


One additional note I would make... Inflation is good. Deflation (the Dev's like this method) is bad. For those people that like cute saying etc, Deflation makes the rich richer, while inflation makes them poorer (okay, my English needs some work). Like people an economy needs to move... so no inflation/deflation makes for a not so fit economy.

Message Edited by HNelson on 05-19-2005 02:30 PM

Message Edited by HNelson on 05-19-2005 02:32 PM

FeydmanKassan
Fri May 20, 2005 12:12 am
#32

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crafters need to get the boot out of SWG like they do in every other popular MMO these days,Loot and npc venders is the only way a MMO can work. All the Greedy Arse Crafters PROVE players arent mature enough to run an economy. 3mil for faction armor? Riiigh, get real.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OR, you can simply not pay that price. The maker will either drop their price or stop making armor, problem solved. The player economy is one of the few things htat separate SWG from most other games of its kind. You have a lot of choices in the crafter-free game department. Those who want to craft and work a viritual economy do not.


Uh, if you do leave, can I have your stuff?





PISCARI ENGINEERING/Serenity Shipyards
17pt Weapons Systems/17pt Engine Systems/12pt Chassis
Serenity, Naboo 2972 -5492 Lowca
Tanzar - Freelance Ace/Itondrou - Imperial Ace, Starsider
Omega 4
Omega Squadron
"A hypocrite despises those whom he deceives, but has no respect for himself. He would make a dupe of himself too, if he could. - William Hazlitt"


EdOWar
Fri May 20, 2005 12:22 am
#33




XStarbracer wrote:

Crafters need to get the boot out of SWG like they do in every other popular MMO these days,Loot and npc venders is the only way a MMO can work. All the Greedy Arse Crafters PROVE players arent mature enough to run an economy. 3mil for faction armor? Riiigh, get real.





LMAO. Like loot whores aren't greedy. I've seen how much looted crap goes for in other MMORPGs (as well as SWG).


Here's a suggestion: If YOU can't handle it in a mature, grown-up economy, why don't YOU quit and go to another MMORPG that has a tame and nicely managed kiddie economy, so you don't get hurt.


Slim Vargo, Corbantis


jphillips1868
Sun May 22, 2005 10:18 am
#34
I respectfully disagree.


This would destroy much of SWG's wonderfull player crafting based economy and turn it into a loot/NPC vendor economy. So much of what was unique and interesting about SWG has been lost by the CU. We can't afford to lose the wonderfully complext player crafting merchant economy.
Alukolli
Sun May 22, 2005 4:25 pm
#35

i would say to you all.. try anarchy online. it have loot and Npc vendor economy



i played it for 1year. and you think peeps here charge much.


the mission are payout are better, more time consuming and harder then here.


good armor that are crafted here would be loot on anarchy online and the price you can 10x-20x the price of what you pay here. depanding on who drops it


try that game on trial, and se if you like npc economy. the new expansion pack alian invasion had some new uber armor, that havent to bad drop rate. but high lvl alians. prices on thoose for me were way to high to even get close to anything.. TRY IT. if you like that type of economy cool. play it


swg are unique due to the crafting and player economy. and to be good at swg are much easier then AO.






____________________________________________________________________________________ Name: Craminu
Profession: Trader-structure-enginnering
Vendor: 1810 4749 Jackpot on LOK
Vendor goods: Architect Structures-Resources-
Custom orders: yes by mail-Architect/artisan goods
Guild: Charm
Mayor of jackpot
Resetgun
Sun May 22, 2005 11:30 pm
#36

I just disagree with orginal poster.


If you want loot based game go and find it. There is plenty of them already. That is what you are proposing.





――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――
It's easy to find something worth dying for. Do you have anything worth living for?
Tartuffe
Wed May 25, 2005 12:08 am
#37
We either have a player based economy or we do not... there is no mix-and-match




IGN: Montu Krell
Please offer all auction winnings to vendor at 1436, 8, -2385 on Dantooine
Poldano
Wed May 25, 2005 5:50 pm
#38

I'm going to disagree a tiny bit with my previous post, and with some of the other responders.


I believe it is possible to implement an AI-supported player-based econcomy, without destroying the player based economy. I believe that I know how to go about doing this, and that some who read this know how to do so. That said, there are three points I would make about such a system:


1) If properly implemented, it would work best if no one knew it was there, and such a system could in fact be present in a hypothetical game without players' knowledge.


2) I don't see any reason for implementing such a system in SWG at the present time, for reasons alreadyasserted abundantly throughoutthis thread.


3) I would not expect SOE to implement any such system with the finesse and delicacy needed to avoid obliterating the player economy.


Saego, Wanderhome


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