Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Cross Server lot trading
DrClawX
Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:22 am
#158
My opinion is cross server trades are bad.
Only so much of x resource can be mined per spawn. Wonder why crappy yavin bone dosent shift for a month, but good yavin bone would last about 5-7 days. Once x amount of yavin bone is collected it shifts. Which is applied minerals i assume.
Allows players to acumulate massive amounts of crap. Which in the end causes lag, as well as costs SOE money to maintain more storage space which is then directly applied to your 15$ a month fee.
Take all cross server lots and spread out over the entire player base and everyone can gain an extra lot or two.
Factorys and harvestors should be maintained by an active player, someone who logs in 10 mins once a week has no buisness owning a factory or a harvestor. You would in theory have tolog into any givin server for at least once or twice a week for a few hours to even comtimplate maintaining a harvestor. Let alone 10 heavy's. Factorys currently are a little different because they are used as a house with benifits in the end. Leading to houses being different than harvestors and factorys as used for storage or a home base or a shop. Which would require less active maintenance. That same char that logs in once a week for 10 mins should also be able to operate within his now 80 + 50 inventory assuming he can afford a backpack. What use does that char have with a house?? To elaborate a player ust be active to use factoys and harvestors, but a house require less active maintenance assuming they were active at one point in time.
Decay rates depend on how many givin item is on that server. <to that effect>. When supply is greater than demand decay rates will be higher. Which basically happened i danno if its just me but armor seems to decay a little slower as well as easier to repair, that before. Remember those rediculos repair fail rates that wasent a bug. It was evening the system because ofthe mass production boom.
There is nothing wrong with contracting lots within ''active'' players within a server,that stimulates economy and trade. Not that cross server trades dont they just do it in a bad way. There is probably 1000s of people abusing the system in the end creating more ''stuff'' than intended. Less is better provided its balaced, real life resources could be spent elsewhere to enhace gameplay once this is fixed. We will see this slowly fixed, first step is condeming houses and removing mia peoples houses. Second step is to ''fix'' factoys. Which is in progress already. The next logical step would be make harvestors like starships requiring parts to run and people soley responceable for them. Not too mention other balace issues <off topic and too many to list and some mentioned above>. Personally hope they warn players to remove valubles from lot trades, as well as set up a new policy for owning a house, placing a factory/harvestor specifically when gone for long periods of time.
To coment on multiple accounts, which i believe is a good thing because any real money going into this game is good. They even out players leaving due to boredom or other games which is inevitable. More money the beter the game the longer it lasts. I am guilty of two accounts, which i set up mainly for an escape from my crating character <main>, i couldent keep up a combat role. Not to mention crafting was driving me insane and the 6 month time investment at that point into armorsmtih was not an option to just give up. cough 6 months to master armorsmith and collect the ingredients for composite alone. And i didnt want to start fresh on a new server because of the time sink and i wanted to fight with my friends and guildmates. Not to mention i was haveing trouble keeping up with demand and the extra factoy's and harvestors helped with that. Also i objected to lot trades due to morale issues lol and knowing one day it would be nerfed. There are cons to multiple accounts dont get me wrong, but i dont think id be playing right now at least as a crafter if i didnt open my second acount. As well if my playtime gets cut i may not be able to support a crafter role or my second account. Basically it comes down too playtime some one with 10 accounts that plays an hour a week wouldent really matter but if they played 100 hours a week they could get a lot done. But the same goes for 1 or 2 accounts.
Phaelyn
Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:30 am
#159
DrClawX wrote:
To coment on multiple accounts, which i believe is a good thing because any real money going into this game is good. They even out players leaving due to boredom or other games which is inevitable. More money the beter the game the longer it lasts. I am guilty of two accounts, which i set up mainly for an escape from my crating character , i couldent keep up a combat role. Not to mention crafting was driving me insane and the 6 month time investment at that point into armorsmtih was not an option to just give up. cough 6 months to master armorsmith and collect the ingredients for composite alone. And i didnt want to start fresh on a new server because of the time sink and i wanted to fight with my friends and guildmates. Not to mention i was haveing trouble keeping up with demand and the extra factoy's and harvestors helped with that. Also i objected to lot trades due to morale issues lol and knowing one day it would be nerfed. There are cons to multiple accounts dont get me wrong, but i dont think id be playing right now at least as a crafter if i didnt open my second acount. As well if my playtime gets cut i may not be able to support a crafter role or my second account. Basically it comes down too playtime some one with 10 accounts that plays an hour a week wouldent really matter but if they played 100 hours a week they could get a lot done. But the same goes for 1 or 2 accounts.
Mmm.. One problem here - Throwing money at SOE isn't being perceived by SOE as "We've got people who want the game to last" - They perceive it as "Wow, all these people with 2, 3 even 8 accounts - We must have done something right!" The more people have multiple accounts doesn't equate Devs looking for problems in the system and correcting them - It equates to a feeling that they have already succeeded in making the game work, otherwise players wouldn't want to give us x multiples of $15.
Ackew
Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:39 am
#160
DrClawX wrote:
Only so much of x resource can be mined per spawn. Wonder why crappy yavin bone dosent shift for a month, but good yavin bone would last about 5-7 days. Once x amount of yavin bone is collected it shifts. Which is applied minerals i assume.
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Where did you get the idea that only so much of a resource can be mined ? I've never seen any thing that says that. AFSIK its based SOLELY on time. Non organic stuff spawns for 7 to 14 days while organic seems to be 10 to 21days. JTL resources seem to have the same spawn times as organic. Why is it that people who are against cross server lots trades are FOR people renting lots off people on the same server. Whats the difference ?
GraySeven
Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:35 am
#161
Diorchas wrote:
GraySeven wrote:
And at this point it boils down to matter of opinion, mine being that simply that no cheat is too minor to fix and yours being that if it were a cheat it would have already been addressed.
It comes down to nothing more than how individuals view the world. I don't know your nationality, but I believe we all have the right to express and promote our own opinions regardless of government view.
But, I've seen the Dev's refuse to answer bigger problems right up to the point they get fixed, so I don't hold out any hope for some foresight into this issue until and if its ever addressed. We may never know.
But yet again you are starting with a faulty premise! You say that no cheat is too minor to fix, yet cross server lot trading has never been defined as cheating. You're using circular reasoning. You're saying it should it defined as cheating because it is cheating. My point is that it is not you who defines what is cheating. It is the devs. And they have had ample opportunity to define cross-server trades as cheating.
So get off the high horse, man. You are not staking the moral high ground here. You're just making yourself look like a self-righteous prig. Until the time that the devs state definitively whether such things are cheating, seeking to impose your own definition on it is ridiculous.
Message Edited by Diorchas on 02-22-2005 02:21 PM
You're right, it has never been defined as cheating, but if you use something unintended with which to gain an advantage which was unintended, what is that? I've never in my life been accused of being a "self-righteous prig" or even having a moral high ground, but I know cheating when I see it...I myself don't need an outside party to know right from wrong, unlike the majority of our (American) population who require a stack of laws passed by government to define morality.
My premise isn't faulty, its simply like a theory unproven. Until it is proven right or wrong, we can debate and discuss and attempt to prove our opinion and disprove theirs. Once a Dev actually steps up and makes a statement on the subject, the discussion closes because we no longer have any room to speculate.
And I don't own a high horse, we can't fit it down here in the gutter.
Diorchas
Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:20 am
#162
What is self-righteousness if it is not someone holding others to his own sense of arbitrary morality? And, like it or not, your opinion IS arbitrary if for no other reason than it is simply your opinion.
You yourself said that cross-server lot trading does not hurt you. You haven't bothered to refute my argument that it hurts anyone else either. Yet you return to your hackneyed "having an advantage over others" ploy. What advantage, I ask you? Cross server lot trading for static harvesters results only in an influx of grind-quality materials. This SPURS the economy, it does not weaken it. This HELPS beginning crafters, it doesn't harm them.
Perhaps the most damning indictment against your argument, though, is found by simply asking yourself what the alternatives are. If cross server grind resources were not available, what would people do? They'd be forced to waste their lots on grind material when theycould be spent harvesting better resources. This, in turn, would lead to smaller amounts of high-quality resources. This would cascade into both increased demand AND lower supply of finished products. Prices for the average consumer would skyrocket and prices for the highest quality finished goods would go through the roof.
If you judge that such trading is immoral then don't use them yourself. It's great that you have an opinion and even more admirable that you stick to it. Just don't try to force others to adhere to your own sense of propriety. If you had the devs behind you it MIGHT be a different story, but they are not. By their very silence they show that if they are on any side they are on the side of the cross server traders. Until they make their stance explicit, however, cross server trading is not cheating. It may be cheating to you, but all that means is that you will gnash your teeth as others do something that, by your own admission, doesn't even hurt you.
That's just sad.
Crimsonsplat
Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:24 am
#163
*Yawn*
Another 8-page lot trading argument by the usual suspects.
On this side, Mr. Indignant
On that side, Mr. Loophole.
You want another perspective on this? Try this one on for size: it is an exploit that any character can own and emplace mines, regardless of whether they have a single box of Surveying skill, or even Novice Artisan.
I mean, if it's an exploit to start a character that I have no intention of playing, set up ten harvesters for someone and place them on Admin, then obviously allowing characters with no skill to harvest resources is an exploit. Not like I can harvest hides for the furniture I make, since I don't have Scout/Ranger, after all.
So if you want to end x-server lot trades and strangle the economy for resources, let's not be hypocritical about it, lets deal with ALL the exploits!
Yes, that's sarcasm. Now I'll add some more--
I see that Mr. Indignant is a DE. I'm sure that profession has the huge appetite for resources that being an Architect does. Much like what I need to make a run of 1000 Generators @1,450 units each:
1. Requires 250,000 units of Copper
2. Requires 50,000 units of Steel
3. Requires 250,000 units of Carbonate Ore
4. Requires 150,000 units of Non-Ferrous Metal
5. Requires 50,000 units of Chemical
6. Requires 500,000 units of Aluminum
7. Requires 200,000 units of Reactive Gas
2. Requires 50,000 units of Steel
3. Requires 250,000 units of Carbonate Ore
4. Requires 150,000 units of Non-Ferrous Metal
5. Requires 50,000 units of Chemical
6. Requires 500,000 units of Aluminum
7. Requires 200,000 units of Reactive Gas
Total: 1,450,000 resources
Generator Turbines are used in the following schematics (sometimes 2-4 of them)
- Deed for Equipment Factory
- Deed for Moisture Vaparator
- Manufacturing Mechanism
- Deed for Corellia Bank
- Deed for Naboo Bank
- Deed for Tatooine Bank
- Deed for Food Factory
- Deed for Structure Factory
- Deed for Wearables Factory
- Deed for Chemical Extractor
- Deed for Mineral Mining Installation
- Deed for Natural Gas Processor
- Deed for Solar Power Generator
- Deed for Automated Flora Farm
- Deed for Deep Crust Chemical Extractor
- Deed for Fusion Power Generator
- Deed for Heavy Min. Mining Installation
- Deed for Heavy Natural Gas Processor
- Deed for High Capacity Flora Farm
- Deed for High Eff. Moisture Vaparator
- Power Core Unit
- Deed for Medium Coriella House
- Deed for Medium Naboo House
- Deed for Medium Tatooine House
- Deed for Medium Generic Planet House
- Deed for Medium Gen. Planet House (St 2)
- Deed for Equipment Factory
- Deed for Moisture Vaparator
- Manufacturing Mechanism
- Deed for Corellia Bank
- Deed for Naboo Bank
- Deed for Tatooine Bank
- Deed for Food Factory
- Deed for Structure Factory
- Deed for Wearables Factory
- Deed for Chemical Extractor
- Deed for Mineral Mining Installation
- Deed for Natural Gas Processor
- Deed for Solar Power Generator
- Deed for Automated Flora Farm
- Deed for Deep Crust Chemical Extractor
- Deed for Fusion Power Generator
- Deed for Heavy Min. Mining Installation
- Deed for Heavy Natural Gas Processor
- Deed for High Capacity Flora Farm
- Deed for High Eff. Moisture Vaparator
- Power Core Unit
- Deed for Medium Coriella House
- Deed for Medium Naboo House
- Deed for Medium Tatooine House
- Deed for Medium Generic Planet House
- Deed for Medium Gen. Planet House (St 2)
For instance, an Equipment factory, in which droids are made requires, 13,430 resources, of which part goes to the 2 generators (1 in the Manufacturing Mechanism, 1 in the factory itself).
Without the advantage of static farms from cross-trades, it would be next to impossible to gather enough resources to make a factory run of many things worthwhile. The result would be a lot fewer items, a much higher proportion ofthem made by hand, and a much, much MUCH higher price for everything . Further, quality would be lower, as crafters would settle for using what they had instead of spending hours trying to hunt down enough of any quality resource to make the best.
What's that you say? An Advanced R3 droid takes only 1708 resource units? Counting the subcomponents?
Oh.
So... Anyone want to trade me lots on Starsider?
GraySeven
Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:45 pm
#164
Look further along, I'm also a Master Shipwright. I know all about resource requirements (I'm Mr Indignant, right?). At least Architects can use factories. Aside from consumables and add-ons we have to handcraft.
Just as we have no proof that cross server trades are cheating or not, we also don't know whether or not they are harmful or helpful. I really don't believe that we will see the huge drop in resource availability that seem to be the main argument for not eliminating trades. But I refer back to a previous example...what if these trades are preventing the Dev's from giving us ALL additional lots? Its just supposition, granted, but the truth is we don't KNOW what these things are or aren't doing to the game. And since it was unintended, isn't it best for the game AS A WHOLE to remove the loopholes that allow this to take place?
Most examples I've seen show that the huge static farms are inefficient anyway. To be able to harvest as much from a static farm as someone with 10 mobile lots it appears to require some 40-60 harvesters since the average spawn percentage comes out to around 40 or 50% whereas I don't drop harvesters on less than 80% sites.People that still want to mine for a living can do so, its just going to take more work than running out and dropping more power and credits into 40 harvesters.
As for the Architect. Can one of you tell me how many houses, harvesters and factories you sell in a week? I have had all these that I need for nearly 2 years now, more actually, and I can't imagine that the market for these is that large since they don't decay, so I have to ask what the need for huge quantities of low-grade resources are? I've never been an Architect, so I have no ability to gauge, so I'd really like some input from that profession.
I know the Shipwright angle, and yes we still have high resource requirements for consumables but the qualtiy of the resources matter, so "grind" resources are not something we tend to buy.
I'm simply having a hard time understanding the need for all of these low-quality resources.
Milgram
Wed Feb 23, 2005 2:35 pm
#165
Lol, do you really think the devs are going to read this? If so, do you really think the devs are going to respond to this?
DrClawX
Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:36 pm
#166
Ackew wrote:
DrClawX wrote:
Only so much of x resource can be mined per spawn. Wonder why crappy yavin bone dosent shift for a month, but good yavin bone would last about 5-7 days. Once x amount of yavin bone is collected it shifts. Which is applied minerals i assume.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Where did you get the idea that only so much of a resource can be mined ? I've never seen any thing that says that. AFSIK its based SOLELY on time. Non organic stuff spawns for 7 to 14 days while organic seems to be 10 to 21days. JTL resources seem to have the same spawn times as organic. Why is it that people who are against cross server lots trades are FOR people renting lots off people on the same server. Whats the difference ?
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I danno if i made it up or its fact that i read somewhere. But you just said it, non organic lasts7-14. Why is one resource lasting for 7 and the other lasting for 14, the total ammount allowed was achieved within the 7 days. Grind quality steel could last for a month if nobody mined it i bet.
The difference between cs lots and rentals is it stimulates that servers economy with active players, combat characters generaly have more lots and crafters generaly have less lots. Renting lots is a good way to spread the money form crafters to the combatants, basically gives a combatant a something a crafter wants. As well that active player is consuming stuff within that server, not just adding stuff.
Now i see static harvestorcome into question which has been established that it is generall not worth it and is good for grind quality resources. What about someone highly organised, staticharvestors are the lazy way. If 5 armorsiths on different servers formed an orgainzed team, each armorsmith wouldthen be equal to 5 armorsmiths on their server.
saintchuck
Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:22 pm
#167
Resource pools were taken out in late Beta 2/early Beta 3. Currently, resources spawn for a random amount of time.
Alukolli
Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:35 am
#168
This are an game that you pay to play!!
you have the posiblility to use you 8 charecters on 8 servers as you se fit..
why are you all flamming the cross server trades so much?? i havent seen 1 real good point against cross server..
i started to play this game 4month ago.. i didnt know about the cross erver lot trades in about 2month in the game. didnt start to use them an month after that when i got my buisness running... i have made millions credits on selling stuff.. if you are aginst cross server lot trades? how did i manage to compete in the beginning of game, when i didnt do cross server lot trades, but i still made millions of credits selling resources/product
Or might just some crafters think the buisness will come falling on their lap
hard work and tell peeps about your buisness then you will get sales. there are alot of crafter out there and alot of resource gatheres. When game dont need so many, lot trades will decrease.
i started small and did an expansion on my game to get all the resources i need..
you all pay to play game. you can either do lot swaps or you dont. There are nothing in the rules that say you cant "trade" lots with other peeps..
Klak
Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:52 am
#169
Crimsonsplat wrote:
Oh.
So... Anyone want to trade me lots on Starsider?
i do. contact me ingame through cross server chat or gimme a pm.