Brawler Archive
Thread: ATTENTION ALL!!! COMBAT BALANCE DISPARITY!!!
I was master swordsman before you got the defensive loving and it was a great class then, only thing it really lacked was a knockdown, which it should have.
Glad to see it is still going strong, I miss it.
I wrote this on the dev forums, as a reply, and it fits okay here:
Xodarap777 wrote:
aries_liak wrote:
You have built a game where the only ability to compete with another person is to spend your time grinding out 3 primary professions. TKA, pistoleer, fencer. Once that combo is achieved a player can compete on par with his other fellow players in combat with one another.
It's too bad that people have only discovered ONE possible combination of combat professions for power gaming. First, there are roles to be played. The one you have mentioned is called a tank. Use your fists or knucklers with this combo and you'll lose your sacred dodging ability, as it is weapon-specific (to pistols and 1H swords), so the TKA is only for the melee/ranged defenses. Pistols and swords don't do close to the damage (at a time or per second on average) as most other weapons classes, hence the tank role: this person is there to "take" damage (to distract the offense), so that damage-dealing classes, like commandos, can get their attacks in without having to get killed (since they can't take much damage, without crap for defense abilities). Since the tank is redundant with creatures, this class combo is superfluous, and thereby ineffective. Too bad you haven't thought of that. MCHs spend far less SP for several tanks, and they can add to that their own offensive abilities.
This is not to mention that the "dodge combo," created by stacking pistoleer and fencer dodge bonuses, is erroneously seen as unfairly "uber." Carbineer and Swordsman counterattacks stack just as well, as do rifleman/pikeman blocks. They are all the same in effect. Still, this is a tanking combo, which is unnecessary because of CHs.
The problem here is that everyoneb!tches about what one combat class can do, and yet they can't. And everyone thinks that the ability they don't have is the better one. Watch as those people switch over, only to complain that a third class has an ability they don't have, which is, again, seen as better. They're all a bunch of whiney 5-year-olds who want whatever the other kids are playing with. Untilthey have it.
I have played every class in the game except for image designer, musician (thought it redundant with dancer), chef, and politician. I have enjoyed them all in their own right. I probably enjoy my high-damage commando/TKA character the best in combat, although he dies MUCH faster than my low-damage dodge-tank character. He also kills MUCH faster. THAT'S CALLED BALANCE. There's balance in differences. It would suck tomake all of us the same. The dodge-tank can whine all day that they should be able to do the damage the commando/TKA can do ("I spent just as many skill points!"), and the commando/TKA could whine all day that they should be able to stay alive like the dodge-tank. The two should group, as far as I'm concerned, and utilize each others' talents in complement. If they want to solo, however, they should choose whichever they want. You can't have everything.
As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences. For non power-gamers, there's richness in conversation at the med centers and starports. There's beauty in the diverse landscapes of the many planets. There's fun in duelling your buddies or participating in player-made events. I am, myself, a powergamer, but I manage to enjoy the downtime when I can, and try not to be too impatient. I don't have to be able to kill anyone and everyone that challenges me... Think of real-life martial artists and combatants. To be good at what they do, they had to grind. A LOT! I'm sure Chuck Norris put in a TON of work, most of it far from enjoyable. But your average black belt can pack a punch, and can have a life, too. It's up to you which you want to be.
Don't blame the devs!
A couple more specific side notes: Vyn, you deserve all and any flames you get for being, well, stupid.
Also, we should probably let this die and not keep it on top.
Onslaught2k5 wrote:Of course he doesn't mention that BH's get more offensive bonus than any other profession...
Of course you forget that BH has been nerfed just as many times as CH. You don't mention that all of our speed bonuses are useless when the PvP template of the month makes it so that the BH is unable to even HIT the other person. You also fail to mention that the receint defensive modifier bonuses has rendered what offensive power we have to about the same level as everyone else... yet we still do not gain defensive bonuses ourselves. You cannot use that as an argument anymore, as it is no longer a valid point.
- Initially, we were high powered attacks, little defense.
- Now, we have regular powered attacks, little defense, and everybody has the ability to resist that which made us powerful in the first place.
Do the math.
Bounty Hunter (includes all mods from Master Marksman):
+24 Ranged Defense
+2 Melee Defense
Ok, so you're easy to hit... welcome to the club! Kite melees, and wear armor.
of interest is the fact that commando and smuggler didn't make this list. why? because they also don't get good defense mods.
one wonders if perhaps the bountyhunter was INTENTIONALY gimped a bit on defense because of their HUGE OFFENSIVE ADVANTAGE? hrm...
the BH has far more versatility in weapon selection as well as special attacks than any of the straight elite marksman or brawler profs. when they take out fire-KD and eyeshot then I'll have room to hear you whine about not being uber enough. until then, stuff it. we all know that BH is one of the most powerful PvP classes in the game if you bother to use your brain instead of just spamming eyeshot 'till the cows come home. if you feel you're at a dissadvantage in PvP then you're probably stupid.
now PvE is probably what you're complaining about, and it's true that a BH can't tank worth spit, but they're not supposed to. you're a bountyhunter, you're trained to kill other people, not krayt dragons. you can't solo big stuff. period. get a TKM to tank for you and break out the LLC. oh no! grouping! what a horrible thought!
what, you want to be the best in PvP AND PvE? you'll find little sympathy for your position here.
I wrote this on the dev forums, as a reply, and it fits okay here:
Xodarap777 wrote:
aries_liak wrote:
You have built a game where the only ability to compete with another person is to spend your time grinding out 3 primary professions. TKA, pistoleer, fencer. Once that combo is achieved a player can compete on par with his other fellow players in combat with one another.
It's too bad that people have only discovered ONE possible combination of combat professions for power gaming. First, there are roles to be played. The one you have mentioned is called a tank. Use your fists or knucklers with this combo and you'll lose your sacred dodging ability, as it is weapon-specific (to pistols and 1H swords), so the TKA is only for the melee/ranged defenses. Pistols and swords don't do close to the damage (at a time or per second on average) as most other weapons classes, hence the tank role: this person is there to "take" damage (to distract the offense), so that damage-dealing classes, like commandos, can get their attacks in without having to get killed (since they can't take much damage, without crap for defense abilities). Since the tank is redundant with creatures, this class combo is superfluous, and thereby ineffective. Too bad you haven't thought of that. MCHs spend far less SP for several tanks, and they can add to that their own offensive abilities.
This is not to mention that the "dodge combo," created by stacking pistoleer and fencer dodge bonuses, is erroneously seen as unfairly "uber." Carbineer and Swordsman counterattacks stack just as well, as do rifleman/pikeman blocks. They are all the same in effect. Still, this is a tanking combo, which is unnecessary because of CHs.
The problem here is that everyoneb!tches about what one combat class can do, and yet they can't. And everyone thinks that the ability they don't have is the better one. Watch as those people switch over, only to complain that a third class has an ability they don't have, which is, again, seen as better. They're all a bunch of whiney 5-year-olds who want whatever the other kids are playing with. Untilthey have it.
I have played every class in the game except for image designer, musician (thought it redundant with dancer), chef, and politician. I have enjoyed them all in their own right. I probably enjoy my high-damage commando/TKA character the best in combat, although he dies MUCH faster than my low-damage dodge-tank character. He also kills MUCH faster. THAT'S CALLED BALANCE. There's balance in differences. It would suck tomake all of us the same. The dodge-tank can whine all day that they should be able to do the damage the commando/TKA can do ("I spent just as many skill points!"), and the commando/TKA could whine all day that they should be able to stay alive like the dodge-tank. The two should group, as far as I'm concerned, and utilize each others' talents in complement. If they want to solo, however, they should choose whichever they want. You can't have everything.
As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences. For non power-gamers, there's richness in conversation at the med centers and starports. There's beauty in the diverse landscapes of the many planets. There's fun in duelling your buddies or participating in player-made events. I am, myself, a powergamer, but I manage to enjoy the downtime when I can, and try not to be too impatient. I don't have to be able to kill anyone and everyone that challenges me... Think of real-life martial artists and combatants. To be good at what they do, they had to grind. A LOT! I'm sure Chuck Norris put in a TON of work, most of it far from enjoyable. But your average black belt can pack a punch, and can have a life, too. It's up to you which you want to be.
Don't blame the devs!
BH is a tactical profession, with varied and diverse, interesting and powerful specials. They get a wide range of weapons, for each ofwhich they get WAY more positive modifiers than even the elite weapon classes for those weapons. Whoever's a BH here that's complaining about pistoleers has obviously never been one. I've been both an MBH and a master pistoleer, and there's NO CONTEST. Master pistoleers don't even hit their own speed cap, and they don't have close to MBH accuracy. Their specials suck. Not only do they lack the ability (like an MBH) to hit mind and to do fire DOT, but their few high-damage specials have horrible DPS (average damage per second, due to the gross reloading time).Of course, if you combine the MBH bonuses with pistoleer, it looks a lot different. Still, dodging half the time doesn't make up for worthless specials and bad accuracy.
MBHs' DPS is one of the best in the game. I'm serious, do the math. And DPS is really what counts. No, they aren't up to par with TKAs, but they don't have to stay on top of someone, either (a real pain, believe me!).
BHs really should stop complaining and learn to use their profession. I enjoyed it, and sometimes I still play my MBH. When I don't, it's a matter of taste, not 1337 frustration that I'm not "uber" enough.
I wrote this on the dev forums, as a reply, and it fits okay here:
Xodarap777 wrote:
aries_liak wrote:
You have built a game where the only ability to compete with another person is to spend your time grinding out 3 primary professions. TKA, pistoleer, fencer. Once that combo is achieved a player can compete on par with his other fellow players in combat with one another.
It's too bad that people have only discovered ONE possible combination of combat professions for power gaming. First, there are roles to be played. The one you have mentioned is called a tank. Use your fists or knucklers with this combo and you'll lose your sacred dodging ability, as it is weapon-specific (to pistols and 1H swords), so the TKA is only for the melee/ranged defenses. Pistols and swords don't do close to the damage (at a time or per second on average) as most other weapons classes, hence the tank role: this person is there to "take" damage (to distract the offense), so that damage-dealing classes, like commandos, can get their attacks in without having to get killed (since they can't take much damage, without crap for defense abilities). Since the tank is redundant with creatures, this class combo is superfluous, and thereby ineffective. Too bad you haven't thought of that. MCHs spend far less SP for several tanks, and they can add to that their own offensive abilities.
This is not to mention that the "dodge combo," created by stacking pistoleer and fencer dodge bonuses, is erroneously seen as unfairly "uber." Carbineer and Swordsman counterattacks stack just as well, as do rifleman/pikeman blocks. They are all the same in effect. Still, this is a tanking combo, which is unnecessary because of CHs.
The problem here is that everyoneb!tches about what one combat class can do, and yet they can't. And everyone thinks that the ability they don't have is the better one. Watch as those people switch over, only to complain that a third class has an ability they don't have, which is, again, seen as better. They're all a bunch of whiney 5-year-olds who want whatever the other kids are playing with. Untilthey have it.
I have played every class in the game except for image designer, musician (thought it redundant with dancer), chef, and politician. I have enjoyed them all in their own right. I probably enjoy my high-damage commando/TKA character the best in combat, although he dies MUCH faster than my low-damage dodge-tank character. He also kills MUCH faster. THAT'S CALLED BALANCE. There's balance in differences. It would suck tomake all of us the same. The dodge-tank can whine all day that they should be able to do the damage the commando/TKA can do ("I spent just as many skill points!"), and the commando/TKA could whine all day that they should be able to stay alive like the dodge-tank. The two should group, as far as I'm concerned, and utilize each others' talents in complement. If they want to solo, however, they should choose whichever they want. You can't have everything.
As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences. For non power-gamers, there's richness in conversation at the med centers and starports. There's beauty in the diverse landscapes of the many planets. There's fun in duelling your buddies or participating in player-made events. I am, myself, a powergamer, but I manage to enjoy the downtime when I can, and try not to be too impatient. I don't have to be able to kill anyone and everyone that challenges me... Think of real-life martial artists and combatants. To be good at what they do, they had to grind. A LOT! I'm sure Chuck Norris put in a TON of work, most of it far from enjoyable. But your average black belt can pack a punch, and can have a life, too. It's up to you which you want to be.
Don't blame the devs!
BH is a tactical profession, with varied and diverse, interesting and powerful specials. They get a wide range of weapons, for each ofwhich they get WAY more positive modifiers than even the elite weapon classes for those weapons. Whoever's a BH here that's complaining about pistoleers has obviously never been one. I've been both an MBH and a master pistoleer, and there's NO CONTEST. Master pistoleers don't even hit their own speed cap, and they don't have close to MBH accuracy. Their specials suck. Not only do they lack the ability (like an MBH) to hit mind and to do fire DOT, but their few high-damage specials have horrible DPS (average damage per second, due to the gross reloading time).Of course, if you combine the MBH bonuses with pistoleer, it looks a lot different. Still, dodging half the time doesn't make up for worthless specials and bad accuracy.
MBHs' DPS is one of the best in the game. I'm serious, do the math. And DPS is really what counts. No, they aren't up to par with TKAs, but they don't have to stay on top of someone, either (a real pain, believe me!).
Why is everyone obsessed with being defensive, anyways? You don't see everyone trolling offensive professions' forums about their offensive bonuses being out of control (*cough* BH *cough*). At least not to the extent of the recent "*Whine* Why do pistoleers and fencers get to suck offensively but muster up a little extra defense" spree!
BHs really should stop complaining and learn to use their profession. I enjoyed it, and sometimes I still play my MBH. When I don't, it's a matter of taste, not 1337 frustration that I'm not "uber" enough.
BubbleVicious wrote:
All the offense in the world doesn't help if you can't hit your target...
Incorrrect. If you had all the offense in the world you would be hitting your target. Since accuracy is an offensive modifier.
I wrote this on the dev forums, as a reply, and it fits okay here:
Xodarap777 wrote:
aries_liak wrote:
You have built a game where the only ability to compete with another person is to spend your time grinding out 3 primary professions. TKA, pistoleer, fencer. Once that combo is achieved a player can compete on par with his other fellow players in combat with one another.
It's too bad that people have only discovered ONE possible combination of combat professions for power gaming. First, there are roles to be played. The one you have mentioned is called a tank. Use your fists or knucklers with this combo and you'll lose your sacred dodging ability, as it is weapon-specific (to pistols and 1H swords), so the TKA is only for the melee/ranged defenses. Pistols and swords don't do close to the damage (at a time or per second on average) as most other weapons classes, hence the tank role: this person is there to "take" damage (to distract the offense), so that damage-dealing classes, like commandos, can get their attacks in without having to get killed (since they can't take much damage, without crap for defense abilities). Since the tank is redundant with creatures, this class combo is superfluous, and thereby ineffective. Too bad you haven't thought of that. MCHs spend far less SP for several tanks, and they can add to that their own offensive abilities.
This is not to mention that the "dodge combo," created by stacking pistoleer and fencer dodge bonuses, is erroneously seen as unfairly "uber." Carbineer and Swordsman counterattacks stack just as well, as do rifleman/pikeman blocks. They are all the same in effect. Still, this is a tanking combo, which is unnecessary because of CHs.
The problem here is that everyoneb!tches about what one combat class can do, and yet they can't. And everyone thinks that the ability they don't have is the better one. Watch as those people switch over, only to complain that a third class has an ability they don't have, which is, again, seen as better. They're all a bunch of whiney 5-year-olds who want whatever the other kids are playing with. Untilthey have it.
I have played every class in the game except for image designer, musician (thought it redundant with dancer), chef, and politician. I have enjoyed them all in their own right. I probably enjoy my high-damage commando/TKA character the best in combat, although he dies MUCH faster than my low-damage dodge-tank character. He also kills MUCH faster. THAT'S CALLED BALANCE. There's balance in differences. It would suck tomake all of us the same. The dodge-tank can whine all day that they should be able to do the damage the commando/TKA can do ("I spent just as many skill points!"), and the commando/TKA could whine all day that they should be able to stay alive like the dodge-tank. The two should group, as far as I'm concerned, and utilize each others' talents in complement. If they want to solo, however, they should choose whichever they want. You can't have everything.
As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences. For non power-gamers, there's richness in conversation at the med centers and starports. There's beauty in the diverse landscapes of the many planets. There's fun in duelling your buddies or participating in player-made events. I am, myself, a powergamer, but I manage to enjoy the downtime when I can, and try not to be too impatient. I don't have to be able to kill anyone and everyone that challenges me... Think of real-life martial artists and combatants. To be good at what they do, they had to grind. A LOT! I'm sure Chuck Norris put in a TON of work, most of it far from enjoyable. But your average black belt can pack a punch, and can have a life, too. It's up to you which you want to be.
Don't blame the devs!
BH is a tactical profession, with varied and diverse, interesting and powerful specials. They get a wide range of weapons, for each ofwhich they get WAY more positive modifiers than even the elite weapon classes for those weapons. Whoever's a BH here that's complaining about pistoleers has obviously never been one. I've been both an MBH and a master pistoleer, and there's NO CONTEST. Master pistoleers don't even hit their own speed cap, and they don't have close to MBH accuracy. Their specials suck. Not only do they lack the ability (like an MBH) to hit mind and to do fire DOT, but their few high-damage specials have horrible DPS (average damage per second, due to the gross reloading time).Of course, if you combine the MBH bonuses with pistoleer, it looks a lot different. Still, dodging half the time doesn't make up for worthless specials and bad accuracy.
MBHs' DPS is one of the best in the game. I'm serious, do the math. And DPS is really what counts. No, they aren't up to par with TKAs, but they don't have to stay on top of someone, either (a real pain, believe me!).
Why is everyone obsessed with being defensive, anyways? You don't see everyone trolling offensive professions' forums about their offensive bonuses being out of control (*cough* BH *cough*). At least not to the extent of the recent "*Whine* Why do pistoleers and fencers get to suck offensively but muster up a little extra defense" spree!
BHs really should stop complaining and learn to use their profession. I enjoyed it, and sometimes I still play my MBH. When I don't, it's a matter of taste, not 1337 frustration that I'm not "uber" enough....
hrm, you traded defense for offense, youpicked a strong offensive profession. now you decided you think your strong offensive profession should also be a strong defensive profession? I don't think so. you don't get everything, sorry. if you want to be uber go play EQ or some other game that lets you powerlevel indefinitely.
I don't know how many other combat profs you've played, but I've played a lot, and I can tell you BH is probably the best PvP prof there is, if you know what you're doing. the loosers who don't know how to switch weapons and just run in circles spamming eyeshot may think they're not sufficiently uber (well, a lot of them are probably pistoleer dabblers/masters, so they have defense anyways), but I assure you that if you bother to sit and think out some real actual strategy, and adjust that strategy to fit the opponent you're fighting you can do very, very well.
at least you have some options and versatility. commandos are a one trick pony. all a commando can do is light things up. sure wish they'd make the other weapons viable, I'd like to see a commando do something other than try to set people on fire then run away.
so, uh, no sympathy.
I wrote this on the dev forums, as a reply, and it fits okay here:
Xodarap777 wrote:
aries_liak wrote:
You have built a game where the only ability to compete with another person is to spend your time grinding out 3 primary professions. TKA, pistoleer, fencer. Once that combo is achieved a player can compete on par with his other fellow players in combat with one another.
It's too bad that people have only discovered ONE possible combination of combat professions for power gaming. First, there are roles to be played. The one you have mentioned is called a tank. Use your fists or knucklers with this combo and you'll lose your sacred dodging ability, as it is weapon-specific (to pistols and 1H swords), so the TKA is only for the melee/ranged defenses. Pistols and swords don't do close to the damage (at a time or per second on average) as most other weapons classes, hence the tank role: this person is there to "take" damage (to distract the offense), so that damage-dealing classes, like commandos, can get their attacks in without having to get killed (since they can't take much damage, without crap for defense abilities). Since the tank is redundant with creatures, this class combo is superfluous, and thereby ineffective. Too bad you haven't thought of that. MCHs spend far less SP for several tanks, and they can add to that their own offensive abilities.
This is not to mention that the "dodge combo," created by stacking pistoleer and fencer dodge bonuses, is erroneously seen as unfairly "uber." Carbineer and Swordsman counterattacks stack just as well, as do rifleman/pikeman blocks. They are all the same in effect. Still, this is a tanking combo, which is unnecessary because of CHs.
The problem here is that everyoneb!tches about what one combat class can do, and yet they can't. And everyone thinks that the ability they don't have is the better one. Watch as those people switch over, only to complain that a third class has an ability they don't have, which is, again, seen as better. They're all a bunch of whiney 5-year-olds who want whatever the other kids are playing with. Untilthey have it.
I have played every class in the game except for image designer, musician (thought it redundant with dancer), chef, and politician. I have enjoyed them all in their own right. I probably enjoy my high-damage commando/TKA character the best in combat, although he dies MUCH faster than my low-damage dodge-tank character. He also kills MUCH faster. THAT'S CALLED BALANCE. There's balance in differences. It would suck tomake all of us the same. The dodge-tank can whine all day that they should be able to do the damage the commando/TKA can do ("I spent just as many skill points!"), and the commando/TKA could whine all day that they should be able to stay alive like the dodge-tank. The two should group, as far as I'm concerned, and utilize each others' talents in complement. If they want to solo, however, they should choose whichever they want. You can't have everything.
As far as the grind goes... welcome to another MMO! If you can't manage to have fun, you're being a powergamer. Fine by me if that's what you want to be, but don't complain about the natural consequences. For non power-gamers, there's richness in conversation at the med centers and starports. There's beauty in the diverse landscapes of the many planets. There's fun in duelling your buddies or participating in player-made events. I am, myself, a powergamer, but I manage to enjoy the downtime when I can, and try not to be too impatient. I don't have to be able to kill anyone and everyone that challenges me... Think of real-life martial artists and combatants. To be good at what they do, they had to grind. A LOT! I'm sure Chuck Norris put in a TON of work, most of it far from enjoyable. But your average black belt can pack a punch, and can have a life, too. It's up to you which you want to be.
Don't blame the devs!
BH is a tactical profession, with varied and diverse, interesting and powerful specials. They get a wide range of weapons, for each ofwhich they get WAY more positive modifiers than even the elite weapon classes for those weapons. Whoever's a BH here that's complaining about pistoleers has obviously never been one. I've been both an MBH and a master pistoleer, and there's NO CONTEST. Master pistoleers don't even hit their own speed cap, and they don't have close to MBH accuracy. Their specials suck. Not only do they lack the ability (like an MBH) to hit mind and to do fire DOT, but their few high-damage specials have horrible DPS (average damage per second, due to the gross reloading time).Of course, if you combine the MBH bonuses with pistoleer, it looks a lot different. Still, dodging half the time doesn't make up for worthless specials and bad accuracy.
MBHs' DPS is one of the best in the game. I'm serious, do the math. And DPS is really what counts. No, they aren't up to par with TKAs, but they don't have to stay on top of someone, either (a real pain, believe me!).
Why is everyone obsessed with being defensive, anyways? You don't see everyone trolling offensive professions' forums about their offensive bonuses being out of control (*cough* BH *cough*). At least not to the extent of the recent "*Whine* Why do pistoleers and fencers get to suck offensively but muster up a little extra defense" spree! Try posting offensive multipliers and bonuses, and you'll turn this chart upside-down. That's called balance, stupid.
BHs really should stop complaining and learn to use their profession. I enjoyed it, and sometimes I still play my MBH. When I don't, it's a matter of taste, not 1337 frustration that I'm not "uber" enough.